320 dreamer

can you tell me how you set up the zeitronix for short and long term fuel trims? i have the zeitronix for my wideband O2 and dashdaq for everythin g else. i will be doing this as a guinea pig for the 3.2 litre s/c engine and want to logg as much as ai can

Bramage

Dashdaq for Fuel trims.. sorry.

chawkins2001

Bramage, we have very similar setups, and I get mine dyno tuned tomorrow on the heart breaker too. Shop temps will also be in the 100's, so I will post my results. You have PLM headers right?

Bruce at TTM is King btw, the rail and injectors are the shiz.

skratch77

I cant wait to see the results

You basically have maxed out everything you can bolt on except cams right?

Im debating on cutting out my rear cats and resonator but dont want to loose the massive low end my car makes now.

I might do the exh work and up the boost to a 185mm to gain back the low end but the car will run like crap in the summer.

TTMotorsports

Congrats to Dane and Jeremy for helping to quantify that the TTM Injector and Fuel Rail Kit WORKS and make TREMENDOUS POWER!

This all came together very quickly this week. Wednesday(6/29) as a matter of fact. I was discussing some other topics with Jeremy and I expressed my dismay that he hadn't gotten any of his high power M113k client's to purchase my injector and rail kit even after the buzz that Jerry and his EC client's made about it(Thanks you Jerry, Jake, Shardul and the whole EC family(clients included). There were gains of 25+rwhp with just the addition of my set up to many EC cars that Jerry tuned). At that point Jeremy said that he had someone in mind who was already having a dyno tuning session on Saturday(7/02). When he told me it was Dane I said lets get this done and Jeremy had the TTM Injector and Fuel Rail Kit in his hands the following day.

The rest speaks for itself. While I think dyno numbers are just that.......numbers, there was a significant increase in power which is icing on the cake since I developed this fuel kit to mitigate the fuel starvation issues associated with high hp/tq M113k. MO POWA!

Thank you for all of your hard work Jeremy and Dane.

And for the newbies and/or naysayers, your lack of understanding of simple physics is mind boggling especially since most of you guys are new to MY MB tuning world!

The TTM injectors with the TTM fuel rail is a total solution. This wouldn't be possible with using just one or the other. They work incredible together and now 2 of the top MB tuners have proven it. Thanks again to Jeremy and Jerry for all of your effort to make this a reality.

TTMotorsports

You have privileged information so just keep it that way. That was the deal Craig!!

Can't wait to see your results!

skratch77

will the rail still help out with stock injectors?I dont want to retune my car but want the added safety of not droping fuel pressure.

I sent my ecu back and forth a few times and not doing that again since my car has been running like a race horse on juice with ZERO issues for the last 6 months.

Its dialed in so if I can just run the rail will that work with stock injectors?

loungn14

awesome results guys, just proving more and more that this is a required mod.

the problem is you could have a perfect a/f ratio, but your IDC is maxed, which is playing with fire...

with your mods, you should already have bruce's rail on order

320 dreamer

my question still applies bramage, i run the zt-2 / full dashdaq for logging

jake email sent to e/c website for jerry on what i need to get the trims lined out for the v6 guys!

bruce what do you think the hp gains will be for the smaller engine?

stevebez

I fully agree with a closed loop fuel rail, and possibly larger injectors.

I am very concerned when a car is tuned with a different fuel delivery platform and we have an additional ~50hp on the table which really we cannot explain from a technical side of things. This should not happen.

So I been thinking about this issue. The only reason (to me) how this mod can be making more power is via the ecu timing. I'd like to see a chart of the timing vs rpm from the dyno/logger (before and after). I have a suspicion that as the stock injectors reach max IDC the ecu pulls timing as additional safety. So now with the new tune we are not close to the maxed out IDC so the ecu does not "automatically" pull timing. So is this good in terms of more power ... and this can explain the power jump as much as 50hp? Dunno suppose its possible depending on how much timing was being pulled. This can also be potentially bad as we are now removing a built in ecu protection mechanism, although since we are not at max IDC we, I think, can take some comfort.

BUT! I am purely speculating here on how this power jump is achieved but this, to me, is the only thing that can explain it. There must be some code in the ecu hidden somewhere that pulls timing as the injectors reach max IDC, I just dont understand why this power jump was not seen before when others went to larger injectors. I dont see the fuel rail adding power on its own.

Anyone please chime in on their thoughts as I am scratching my head trying to understand this.....

skratch77

The power is coming from a retune with the whole setup,like there might of been the same gains with just the retune but you would be in the redzone for those gains.

There is no way this can make power on its own without a retune,enless you were running so much boost and the car was pulling timing up top end becasue it was going lean.

skratch77

how can I log the duty cycle? is there an easy way to find out?

I try not to rev my car past 5.5k

TTMotorsports

The gains that were made on the M113k's were not entirely expected, which is icing on the cake and not really why I developed this set up, I would expect similar gains percentage-wise on the V6 and you and Jerry will be the first ones to know.

The injectors need to be scaled properly and some compensation has to be made for the consistent pressure that is now present.

The injectors, as I have stated over and over again, are as close to direct injection as this engine will ever see. The rail helps to keep a consistent pressure getting to all of the injectors and to mitigate the fuel starvation issues but the injectors are the power makers. I will have a video up showing the full cycle of my injectors and you will all get a better understanding on how they are adding the power.

stevebez

It wont fit without modification, dont bother... although the dual regulators are sweet as well as the ability to run two pumps a la SLR as oppossed to modding our rail. But thats a much more difficult and expensive project!

Roverron

Bruce don't let to much out of the bag.
You know the non believers will be non believers.
There is no changing them.
As you see or I hope you saw I'm on the list for a rail. I believe!
Everyone wants to know where the power is coming from and they keep thinking its the rail. It is the way the fuel is delivered or atomized. Like going from throttle body injection to direct port injection with the same motor you just get more power with better fuel delivery. The loop is not making the power its just providing the source for the power at all times.

stevebez

So the fuel rail has constant pressure now only because its looped? And pressure is also better despite you running larger injectors with a stock pump?

Look I like the idea of the closed loop fuel rail, but when extra power lands on the table "unexpectedly" I would sure as hell want to know how or why... and yes I dont buy its how the injector atomises the fuel...

I still say its due to the IDC not maxing out and the ECU not going into a psuedo limp mode. If so, its a good find for sure, but can we confirm this somehow?

What is the fuel pressure in the rail at max power? What is the injector IDC at max power? What is the max flow of the injectors at max IDC?

Bramage

HOLD THE PRESSES..

I am beginning to see Urbunworms point. Hate to say it...

This kit ONLY gives 25-30 HP and TRQ across the RPM range
This kit ONLY gave me 55 HP up top, and over 50 TRQ
My #8, and all other cylinders should be safer,




and to top off this scam:

23 MPH Hahahahahah ha (burp) ha


Best I ever saw coming home from LA (OE Tuning) was 17MPH. It is a long drive (100+ miles), and I like to see what kind of mileage I am getting after a tune. Jeremy mentioned this as I was walking out. He said, watch your MPG.. with a big smile.

AMGPilot

I wouldn't believe the dash cluster on mpg, that number is derived from duty cycle at known flow rate. When you change the injectors and scale the duty cycle you will see a false mpg in the cluster. Do the math at the next fillip and report back...

skratch77

Bramege your before dyno has a problem.i remember when you first posted it months ago and told you there is something wrong up top end.

Either it be a dead pump or old plugs there was def something wrong with how it droped up top end.

Look at gtrs and my dyno we pull clean power to 6k and my peak is right at revlimiter.

Ill believe the power gains when i see someone breaks 600whp

Bramage

Skratch- The last tune I got was in September (i think.. it was the weekend before Famoso). There is a bit for TRQ management which needed to be increased. That was fixed at my last tune, and I ran my first quarter mile with that tune at 11.42 @120. The dyno prior to fixing the cut out was 457.

Yes, I let off early.. still a solid run. Since then, this has been the tune I have run until Saturday.

(I was getting cut out just prior to RL until re-flashed in September)

Your graph looks better than most, even highly modded and tuned cars. Almost all the graphs I have seen the E55 makes max power at 5500 and drops off slightly, after that. I made 585 at 5500, and it continued up to over 490 right at redline. This may be a more common graph, but it is the first I have seen it. Maybe my stock injectors were clogged.. whatever the case, I made 11.42 before, and the car feels much stronger now.

Bruce has these flying out the door, and I have no idea if anyone else will get, but based on what Jerry (Eurocharged) saw when he tuned these, and what Jeremy (OE Tuning) did for me, it is a no-brainer.

Ill report back my MPG after my next tank, but believe me when I say: I do not care one bit about MPG! (If it is free, Ill take it)

urbamworm

I will stand behind what I said, I am not some kind of newb, I am just not a sheep like some will be. First off you're comparing two dyno charts from months apart which right there isn't worth much in my mind so your gains or losses can not be compared especially with a car that is so finicky like this one with a/f changes and timing pull.

And I will tell you right now, do some old school math with your mileage off the odometer and how many gallons you put back in your tank and quickly find out that your display is reading wrong from the bigger injectors.

My car has 50lb (525cc) injectors in it and I get 22-23mpg cruising on the highway according to the display but when done like I said above it is 19-20mpg and my Audi is the same way, it used to be slightly off when I had slightly larger injectors than stock when it was only chipped and now with the full blown setup it has and 830cc injectors, the mpg reading is way off.

Like I said in my original post, changing out the stock injectors (and people getting retuned) is where they are seeing gains which has also now been confirmed by the maker himself.

It sounds like he is using something identical to (if not this very injector) Genesis 550cc injectors (a Bosch injector) like Usually Sideways Rally Team sells which are very popular in the Audi 1.8t world because the split spray goes more direct in to the valves and the cars also idle better with them. clicky click click

skratch77

Its def on my mod list and going from what you guys are saying i should also pick up 30whp.that is unreal because i only got 60whp with a bigger pulley and tune from stock.

Your top end must be day and night now with that added power.

Iv tried so many different setups and the one i have now is good for decent top end and good low end.im stock mid section,rear cats,stock resonator and stock mufflers.

I did 597rwt the other day and the low end i have now is from the stock mid section.i lost about 45 ftlbs down low with gutted exh and made about 10whp from it.

Thats why im sceptical about the gains because iv done mods that people on here swear make 40whp and lost torque and didnt even make anything worth bragging about up top end.

You guys are saying higher gains than what cams and a 185 pulley will give me

GT-ER

I'm sorry Bramage but I'm going to have to agree with skratch77, urbamworm and AMGpilot on most of their points.

1st, AMG pilot is correct that the mileage is based on known factors with the stock injectors that the oem puts in. Changing out the injectors will skew them ever so slightly ( higher or lower...you'd have to do the math to find out ).

2nd, you compare a before and after on the graph shown in the original post where the before looks like crap. So much so, that it almost seems like there was something wrong with the car to begin with.

While I understand and support the benefits of the looped fuel rail and the injectors ( as I stated before, it's a mod I'm interested in doing ), the HUGE amount of power added by these parts simply don't make sense. I got a 78whp gain from my headers, removed cats, 180mm pulley, larger H/E and ecu tune and you expect me to believe that I can gain another 20-30whp more by swapping out some injectors and fuel rail?

I've swapped out maxed injectors on various of my own vehicles and others as well ( and I'm not talking 90-95%....I'm talking about seeing 100% at slightly over half my powerband and going so lean my engine almost popped ) and have yet to see power gains remotely in this realm in any of the dozen or so vehicles I've done this to.

Regardless, I still think it's a great mod and would recommend it to anyone....but I still need more "proof" that such claimed power gains are there.

Roverron

What I don't get here is this is a mod that the OP has posted. And shown that his "car" not all cars made more power after rail and tune. It is information that he is sharing on a forum. He is not selling or guaranteeing anything just giving us information of what he has experienced. Why are people say he needs to prove anything? People are all over him for proof or not believing his gains. I'm sure he posted his numbers and his sheets for people to see or verify what he is saying on his car. These AMG's are supposed to be hand made so results of power vary as well as results with mods.

And I'm not knocking the people questioning his results. He is in the same boat as most of us just; enthusiast trying to have fun toying around with our cars.

chawkins2001

That is some MPG's man. Given I have not driven mine in a while but I recall low teens in city driving.

Another win for the fuel kit, increase mpg's