Of course he's selling the gains ( it's not just Bremage ). The added hp gains have been mentioned in just about every topic where injectors and fuel rail has been mentioned. I don't think I've read a single topic on fuel rail and injectors lately that doesn't have the words "gained xxx whp" in it. He may not be guaranteeing it, but is most definitely using the gains as advertisement.

Also, what the heck does a hand built engine have ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING? Just because the engine is hand built doesn't make it any different from any other engine. The ONLY difference is that it's hand built. If it were machine built, the results would not vary in the least bit.

I'm not saying he's lying as the dyno graph is there. I'm saying that until there is more proof of this...the dyno graphs could simply be misleading due to an unhealthy tune before the injectors and a great tune after the injectors ( among other problem he may or may not have had ).

 

True that!

I just wanted to share my experience. I have no idea what this will do on anyone elses car. Bruce is a solid guy, and I am greatful that I live close enough to OE Tuning that I can dyno tune at the drop of a hat. I have had great expereinces with both supporting vendors. That was the point of my thread.

 

I look at it this way, I'm not picking up the TTM Rail & Injectors for the extra HP. I'm more interested in protecting my engine and if this is one way to do it then I will. If you don't believe that the TTM R & I are a must (for those over 500rwhp) then don't believe and go on your way. I now see why guys like Alan and others don't post anymore.

 

well said

 

Your post was pretty useless as even the ones who are skeptical about the hp gains have agreed with what you posted more than a few times already.

We mostly agree 100% with what you are saying and that's not the point. We aren't second guessing the purpose of the injectors, we are second guessing the gains provided.

I don't think anyone has said they are not a must for people over 500whp ( I'm not sure if maybe urbamworm said so but I'm not going back to reread everything ). Backwards, we've mentioned various times how, apparently, they ARE important.

 

So how is 25-30hp that was picked up with Jeremy's tune different from the 25-30hp that Jerry picked up. If two different tuners with two totally different styles of tuning picked up practically the same amount of hp what is there to be second guessed? if anything it should back up the fact that the combination of the two provide security & power.

 

On an aside this AMG handbuilt thing is funny... all engines are assembled by hand!!!!!

What AMG do is they have one guy build the motor front to back, rather than on a production line. I dont think its particularly clever or special, but marketed as such.

Back onto this fuel rail story... I find it very disconcerting its sold as a "power adder" as GT-ER has said. Its a safety measure. Thats it. If you are gaining power with it, good but its because either

a) your tune before sucked, or
b) the ECU has some timing traps when injectors reach max DC....

thats all it can be.

Also, think about this. If we are potentially running leaner (closer to ideal mixture) into max power rpm with oem rails and injectors (since we are typically rich), we should lose power with the rails keeping us rich on top no?

Personally, I would prefer the setup on the SLR, with twin pumps, SLR injectors, looped rail and twin balanced regulators. But then that would be much more money.... but it would be the state of the art.

Anyhow, Ive said my bit on this. I'm done now.

If you guys find happiness with this great.

 

I'd have to see the graph from jerry's tune ( I don't recall seeing one ) but I can't see how it's even possible. It's like saying that you removed your EGR system and gained 20whp...it's unrelated. A/F Ratios are A/F ratios...unless they changed considerably due to the car already running super lean due to the injectors being at 100% DC, I just don't see the gains. And in cars like skratch's and my own...we are both ever so slightly on the lean side and the car makes the power smoothly and all the way to redline.

Also, I've done this before on various cars and NOT ONCE have I seen a hp gain with larger injectors unless the smaller injectors were making my car go soooo lean that it was losing power. But the OP's graph doesn't display the A/F so I don't know if this is even the problem with his car.

Again, I'm just saying that I don't see how the injectors can add any power unless there was a problem to begin with. In a car like mine though, I really honestly doubt I'd see ANY power gains with it but that doesn't mean I don't want it. I just don't want people to start buying this expecting to see power increases which they may or may not see.

 

I quite honestly think you are way out of line bro. This is not your product, nor do you even have it on your car. TTM did not come out with the kit advertising that you will pick up HP/TQ, they came out with the kit to help the fuel starvation issue. The extra power is just icing on the cake

If you dont think you need it or your curve will benefit from it, keep that to yourself and stop bashing the kit man.

 

+1

 

+1

I dyno'ed under 500whp on a Mustang Dyno, and I still prefer having more peace of mind that TTM's rail and injectors bring.

 

Wow...you guys obviously have difficulty reading. How is me saying that I WANT the kit and that I know it has it's benefits in any way bashing it? What I smell here is a lot of leg humping.

 

im sold, ill take a set

 

Get in line sista.... LOL

 

The reason that I started this product development was because, of the many modified M113k's that I have built, there were issues with the cars leaning out the left side back to the infamous #8. I started with a number of injectors that I tested and compared data from the testing machine I got my data from. I found an injector that I thought would help lower the IDC but soon realized that the issue was really the fuel feed line coming from the tank. I consulted with sneakyneon(Nick), lowprofile(BK) and nick55(also Nick), who are 3 of the most knowledgeable guys on MB World. After seeing what sneakyneon went through with redeveloping his entire system, we realized that wasn't the most convenient(running new fuel lines, etc.) way to mitigate the fuel starvation issue. That is when I started discussing the fuel rail loop system with a few top engine builders that I have know for many years. I am sure some of you have heard of them since they are very well known. These guys are brilliant and the consensus was that this fuel rail with the injector would give me the safety I was looking for. Honestly this was developed, not to make more power but to keep these engines as safe as possible since there were many cylinder 8 issues. It was always blamed or attributed to the tuner but it was actually the IDC and the lack of fuel in the rail because of the way it was pressurized.

You guys all saw Jerry's thread when he tuned the prototype rail with my injectors. Go back and read his very well documented and positive tuning experience with this set up. Since there were no base lines for this car, he started developing a file for the set up but couldn't compare the numbers. He has been a man of his word with what he said he would do and has been since we started working together on this. Thanks Jerry! Shardul stepped up and offered to help Jerry with the file and he bought the injectors and rail from me. Shardul actually helped me rectify a slight problem with the rail I sent him. Thanks Shardul! Since they work very closely on many projects, it was a WIN WIN situation for me and, with the help of Shardul working on the file, Jerry too. Shardul was the one that brought up to me that they were exceeding his previous dyno numbers by ~25hp and it was still a very safe, low 11 AFR and there was more power in it. Now that was a mostly a surprise, but I thought we could make some more power(~10hp) with the injectors and rail.

All of you naysayers can't dispute the fact that 2 totally different tuners found power from installing the TTM Injector and Fuel Rail Kit. It boggles my mind that there are a few members here that think that they are so knowledgeable in performance tuning that have to try and discredit accomplishments that are here to help preserve these engines. Again this set up was to help protect these engines and the extra power, whether you believe it or not, has been found by 2 tuners that actually write their own files.

Al, (he has the prototype injector and rail set up that was tuned by Jerry from EC), Shardul, (who worked closely with Jerry on the file after purchasing the kit) Dane, (an extremely knowledgeable members who doesn't post a lot because of all of the a$$holes on MB World but wanted to bring his experience to the forum), Jerry and Jeremy, I owe you guys a heartfelt thanks for believing in my product and for supplying the proof to quantify that this set up works whether you want to preserve your engine or you are looking to add a little more safe power.

All of the members that have highly modified M113k's and try and refute that the TTM Injector and Fuel Rail Kit makes these engines safer and will produce more power as a combination can keep rolling the dice that their engines are going to stay healthy. Have any of you done a compression test on #8 after having your car modified for over a year? Most of the time the damage is a slow and cumulative death. Just don't do a large amount of 4th gear pulls in Mexico without this fuel set up. Actually do it and let us all know what your data logs look like!

Please understand what the TTM Injector and Fuel Rail Kit was developed to provide one thing...SAFETY. Even if it didn't make any additional power doesn't the safety factor warrant it? More people are ordering it for the safety and not for any additional power. There are people that look at/for problems and there are people that look for solutions. I look for solutions.

 

A few facts for those interested in upgrading their fuel system:

- Old dyno was done in November in the cold of California winter (safety was taken not to max out IDC).
- Anyone with a combination of 180 Pulley or larger with 80-82mm TB should read carefully about injector on cylinder 8 not having adequate fuel delivery at these levels.
- Latest dyno was done in scorching hot 100.2 degree California summer.
- Both comparisons were made on CA91 pump gasoline.
- Ignition timing remained unchanged between days/tunes.
- Fuel was scaled correctly seeing 0% short term fuel trims (occasionally fluctuating between +1% & -1% but settling to 0% again after rpms settle) & 0% Long term fuel trims.
- The mission behind testing the fuel system was to setup for reliability and injector size.
- Runs were consistent, considering temp/fuel additive correction on Bosch ME2.8 ecu.
- Efficiency became much better with the fuel system upgrade, hence the mpg improvements.

Thanks to Bruce for such a speedy delivery and great support as always. This fuel system upgrade is the real deal for those pushing their engine's performance and fuel boundaries. Big thanks to Dane for his time and vehicle. Let's let the track results speak for the improved performance.

 

There is a third tuner that will be tuning this kit in the next day or so, and I will reveal my outcome too. My setup is very similar to Dane's, so it will be interesting to substantiate what has already been established with this kit. BI Performance is doing my tuning here in Atlanta for all the local playa's.

 

I'd love to see the results. Who knows, maybe when I get this I'll be forced to shut up when I gain 20+whp.

 

I think you should have bigger injectors in the car when you have all the power adders done, that is no question since the stock injectors will max out which can also cause pressure drop from running static. I just don't want to have "results" being used from comparisons from two different dyno times and you have to take the word of the tuner/car owner as for if there wasn't more timing being ran on a retune which could add power itself with no other change or who knows what else that could be different in that time frame from the last dyno. Going to the same dyno a day apart can show different results with nothing touched on the car.

I don't know why there wasn't a baseline dyno shown from that day perhaps or maybe there was one done and it wasn't as impressive so the other dyno from a year ago was used instead for this thread, who knows? Everyone wants their car to look good it is only natural and sometimes people (car owners, shop owners, advertisers, whatever) don't tell the whole truth and it gets even worse when anyone has vested interest/an emotional attachment to a product and that is why some like myself are skeptical of things that are "to good to be true." The spark plugs could have been changed since that last dyno and made a big difference right there, or the old dyno being a "off the shelf tune" to a newer dyno tune could make a difference with no other changes to the car. I can show two dynos from my other car where I gained 80whp and 100wtq at a certain rpm point after changing my spark plugs which improved my ignition timing to what it should have been running at.

Like a few others have said, there is no question that you shouldn't upgrade to bigger injectors when pushing the limits (which is said to be around the 500whp range). You absolutely should get rid of the stockers, but if you want to show an honest change (if there is one) then show an untouched tune other than injector scaling from the same day on the same dyno where there are no variables of how the car was running at the time.

 

urbam, the dyno shown was the end result of the tune I was running the day I came in. We installed the rail and injectors, and started the car. The short term fuel trim was over 14%, and the ECU was compensating nicely. Jeremy had an injector map ready to go, and it was loaded. There would be no reason to try to dyno the injectors without scaling them. The ECU would be fighting with itself. Once the injectors were scaled to +/- 1%, we made the first pull. The AFR had perfect form, but was almost 3% rich. The first dyno looked almost identical to what is shown in Post 1. We hit 468 I believe. Through the next 6 - 8 pulls, Jeremy slowly leaned the car out. Gains were progressive with each change. The last pull hit 492 (590 trq) and that's where he wanted to stop. My AFRs were maxed at 11.0, however due to the temps, it is expected that the AFR's will pick up .5 in cool weather. I logged some runs this morning, and sent the outcome to Jeremy. Both of us were very happy with the results in cooler weather, and now I know why he held the .5%.

If you look at the delta between a dyno dynamics and a dynojet, you will see that the DD reads 12%-18% lower. That is a documented fact. If you go with the lower of the two, and want to use this as a comparison.. 12% would look like this:
551HP / 660TRQ

I am not trying to start a dyno debate, because that has been done, however what I am showing you is that you have a lot of room to add power. If you are using your dyno numbers to base your expectations, you need to understand the numbers to begin with.

You should ignore the enormous gains I got up top. We can attribute that to aliens. But if we exclude that, we still made over the quoted 25HP from about 5000 RPM on up. If the point is to debate the 25HP, that is where we should look. I am sure we will get a graph from others soon. Thanks for your interest in this effort!

 

I've got a quick question, what do you think is the limit to this setup? i.e. with enough air how much power could be attained. Thanks.

 

I just ordered a fuel rail also, im using ec injectors for now see how it will work out, shardul got me a 190mm pulley and idler pullies , hyevon will be installing sum long tubes and sum other goodies along with a tune..

 

What if I just got the Eurocharged injectors and no fuel rail? Or do I need the fuel rail?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by PACougar

I've got a quick question, what do you think is the limit to this setup? i.e. with enough air how much power could be attained. Thanks.

I could take a guess: If we are almost static at 500whp, and the duty cycle of the new injectors was 50%, I suspect we could go to 700whp before we begin to go static again. I am sure that is more than the engine can do, however if you can get to this point, it is as simple as having Bruce design a larger injector with the same characteristics. I know he has a very good relationship with his source, and could undoubtedly do this with a 750cc or 1000cc injector. (oh, and add another fuel pump, and some bigger feed line)

Johncy- The injectors are only part of the equation. You have mods that would indicate a likelihood of getting very close to static (100% duty cycle). Larger injectors could solve this as long as the rail can feed the larger injectors. There is a number of people (some with supporting data) that our rail is inefficient, and the cost of that inefficiency can be fuel starvation, most common at cylinder 8. When this occurs, regardless of injector size, #8 goes bye-bye

Jerry added his comments in another thread, and my perception of his feedback was very positive, especially when it comes to solving potential (isolated) lean conditions.

 

I guess I'll find out next year if they can take 700rwhp