LTH,which ones??
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 809
Likes: 0
From: Miami,FL.
2017 Charger Hellcat
LTH,which ones??
I recently got back into an E55 and I'm on the fence about which long tube header and exhaust to go with..On my previous E I had the Supersprint LT's and were a pretty nice setup (which was in 06') but today there are some really nice options..I'm torn between Floored Fab,MBH and the new TTM/American Racing setups.. Any feedback and or personal experience would be greatly appreciated..
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,834
Likes: 65
From: Texas
2003 CL55
I recently got back into an E55 and I'm on the fence about which long tube header and exhaust to go with..On my previous E I had the Supersprint LT's and were a pretty nice setup (which was in 06') but today there are some really nice options..I'm torn between Floored Fab,MBH and the new TTM/American Racing setups.. Any feedback and or personal experience would be greatly appreciated..
__________________
E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd
E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 809
Likes: 0
From: Miami,FL.
2017 Charger Hellcat
Of the three LTH you listed, the new TTM/American racing should give you a complete LTH/ mid pipe and make great power. I would expect the price to be very reasonable based on the E63 models made. American Racing cranks out a ton of high quality headers a year abd they make power!
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,856
Likes: 7
From: Socal
07E63, 12E350, 08997TT, 16SiennaSE
I have Kleemann headers and down pipes on my 02 E55 and it did not show much improvement on the dyno, sound were minimum too with primary cats and resonator delete.
I currently have TTM/ARH LTH's on my E63 and so far I'm liking it except for the CEL codes..
I can really feel the performance gain, and the sound is sweet!
my yellow triangle on the dash flashes when I floor it, leaving 2 long tires mark behind which i could not do before
I will try to get a dyno done this weekend to see what the numbers.
I currently have TTM/ARH LTH's on my E63 and so far I'm liking it except for the CEL codes..
I can really feel the performance gain, and the sound is sweet! my yellow triangle on the dash flashes when I floor it, leaving 2 long tires mark behind which i could not do beforeI will try to get a dyno done this weekend to see what the numbers.
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,181
Likes: 4
From: Long Island, NY
Whatever we're tuning!
I recently got back into an E55 and I'm on the fence about which long tube header and exhaust to go with..On my previous E I had the Supersprint LT's and were a pretty nice setup (which was in 06') but today there are some really nice options..I'm torn between Floored Fab,MBH and the new TTM/American Racing setups.. Any feedback and or personal experience would be greatly appreciated..
I might be a bit biased
but there is NO COMPARISON if you are looking for the ultimate long tube, direct bolt-in system for highly modified E/CLS55's.Of the three LTH you listed, the new TTM/American racing should give you a complete LTH/ mid pipe and make great power. I would expect the price to be very reasonable based on the E63 models made. American Racing cranks out a ton of high quality headers a year abd they make power!
There is no other system offering 1-7/8 primaries with individually bent primaries with NO WELDING like some other systems that use 4, 5 and 6 pieces to build 1 primary! And this a direct bolt-on with absolutely NO WELDING required.Pricing will be less than $3000 for THE COMPLETE SYSTEM without cats and an additional $200 to add cats. Some members have already received group buy pricing.
I do my best to bring the best products and solutions to the Mercedes Benz industry and you guys make it all worthwhile!!
True long tubes headers: TTM/ARH, Supersprint, Floored Fab and Eurocharged(very similar design as the Supersprint).
Mid-length: MBH and Kleemann.
All of these systems make great power compared to the highly restrictive stock manifolds but, for the most highly modified cars, there really is only 1 option.
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Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,181
Likes: 4
From: Long Island, NY
Whatever we're tuning!
I have Kleemann headers and down pipes on my 02 E55 and it did not show much improvement on the dyno, sound were minimum too with primary cats and resonator delete.
I currently have TTM/ARH LTH's on my E63 and so far I'm liking it except for the CEL codes..I can really feel the performance gain, and the sound is sweet! my yellow triangle on the dash flashes when I floor it, leaving 2 long tires mark behind which i could not do before
I will try to get a dyno done this weekend to see what the numbers.
I currently have TTM/ARH LTH's on my E63 and so far I'm liking it except for the CEL codes..
I can really feel the performance gain, and the sound is sweet! my yellow triangle on the dash flashes when I floor it, leaving 2 long tires mark behind which i could not do beforeI will try to get a dyno done this weekend to see what the numbers.
Get a Quaife if you don't have one yet and buy some stock in the tire company of your choice!
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Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,305
Likes: 93
From: Valley of the Sun, Arizona
C63, SL55, E55, CLS55, ML63, C55
Lets stick with the facts here and not the fads. The 1 7/8 primary is based a notion for the 55's. There is no data supporting or showing that 0.125 of an inch on the primary tube is going to translate into the best thing since sliced bread on these 55's.
Fact is, the said headers widely and openly uses 18 gauge stainless steel across multiple platforms that make. We use 16 gauge tubing that has better heat retention across the board, and we use it on every header system we make.
In fact our power gains shown across many platforms has led to MBH offering a 100% money back guarantee if you don't make the power we claim. Maybe I'm crazy, for putting my money where my mouth is, but we are the ONLY header maker to offer that for the Mercedes community. We are also the first (that I know of) here at MBworld to offer an lifetime warranty on our headers.
When you are on top and devote just about every waking minute to headers for Mercedes, There are people going to try to knock you down, with claims of latest and greatest. I for one am to old to get into any who is better than who, but the facts are there, You can buy on theory or you can buy on proven results on the Mercedes.
Our goal isn't to mass produce headers and play a financial numbers game on how many headers I can pump out for a type of car. A smart shopper should be able to see through the puffery in advertising of a new product vs the documented, tested, and proven
Fact is, the said headers widely and openly uses 18 gauge stainless steel across multiple platforms that make. We use 16 gauge tubing that has better heat retention across the board, and we use it on every header system we make.
In fact our power gains shown across many platforms has led to MBH offering a 100% money back guarantee if you don't make the power we claim. Maybe I'm crazy, for putting my money where my mouth is, but we are the ONLY header maker to offer that for the Mercedes community. We are also the first (that I know of) here at MBworld to offer an lifetime warranty on our headers.
When you are on top and devote just about every waking minute to headers for Mercedes, There are people going to try to knock you down, with claims of latest and greatest. I for one am to old to get into any who is better than who, but the facts are there, You can buy on theory or you can buy on proven results on the Mercedes.
Our goal isn't to mass produce headers and play a financial numbers game on how many headers I can pump out for a type of car. A smart shopper should be able to see through the puffery in advertising of a new product vs the documented, tested, and proven
PLATINUM SPONSOR
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,834
Likes: 65
From: Texas
2003 CL55
Glad you are loving your new system Peter. On a 08 E63 we made 465whp/425wtq with only a lightened crank pulley and OE tune with a totally stock intake(charcoal and paper filters)
Get a Quaife if you don't have one yet and buy some stock in the tire company of your choice!
Get a Quaife if you don't have one yet and buy some stock in the tire company of your choice!
__________________
E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd
E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd
Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 193
Likes: 1
From: Orange County
Viper SRT-10, CLS 55 AMG, 2012 Tacoma Off Road 4x4
I think you have all of the information you need to make the best choice.
I might be a bit biasedbut there is NO COMPARISON if you are looking for the ultimate long tube, direct bolt-in system for highly modified E/CLS55's.
You are dead on Brooke! There is no other system offering 1-7/8 primaries with individually bent primaries with NO WELDING like some other systems that use 4, 5 and 6 pieces to build 1 primary! And this a direct bolt-on with absolutely NO WELDING required.
most highly modified cars, there really is only 1 option.
I might be a bit biased
but there is NO COMPARISON if you are looking for the ultimate long tube, direct bolt-in system for highly modified E/CLS55's.You are dead on Brooke!
There is no other system offering 1-7/8 primaries with individually bent primaries with NO WELDING like some other systems that use 4, 5 and 6 pieces to build 1 primary! And this a direct bolt-on with absolutely NO WELDING required.most highly modified cars, there really is only 1 option.
Hello Bruce,
I was wondering about the 1-7/8 primaries being too big on the 55's and causing the low end TQ to drop-off a bit too much? I'm sure you compared building these LT's with the smaller standard size LT primarys and I'd love to know what the difference is by going to the 1-7/8?? Your input is greatly appreciated!
MBWorld Fanatic!
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,092
Likes: 29
From: Orlando
1967 Pro Touring turbo LSX Camaro
You have nothing to lose by going with 1 7/8 primaries. How much you'll gain will depend on the output level of the engine. Higher HP engines will gain more than their stock counterpart.
Also a one piece primary tube is definitely preferred over sectioned together "j"s and "u"s.
The MBH look fantastic for what they are, a hand fabricated header.
Also a one piece primary tube is definitely preferred over sectioned together "j"s and "u"s.
The MBH look fantastic for what they are, a hand fabricated header.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,759
Likes: 96
From: NH
2012 C63 BS & 2014 E63 Estate & 2008 CLK63 BS
Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 193
Likes: 1
From: Orange County
Viper SRT-10, CLS 55 AMG, 2012 Tacoma Off Road 4x4
Has anyone done a dyno showing an increase in RWHP on a set of standard primarys vs 1 7/8? I really want to know because I have the smaller primarys now and was considering having a custom set made with the larger 1 7/8 but can't justify the $$ without any proof... I keep hearing two sides of the story... Some very knowledgeable people have told me the 55's lose too much low end TQ with these bigger primarys & collectors and that the power you may gain on the top end is not worth what is lost on the bottom end. The other side of the story is I plan on doing a lot of big mods so it would make more sense that bigger is better, however no one can show any real proof?? Please help
Last edited by vipermike; May 7, 2012 at 09:22 PM.
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,305
Likes: 93
From: Valley of the Sun, Arizona
C63, SL55, E55, CLS55, ML63, C55
When I first set out making 55 headers. I was leaning towards a 1-5/8" primary. After some thinking about how these cars make boat loads of torque. I felt spinning the added torque a 1-5/8" primary would make over a 1.75" wouldn't do anyone any good in the long run. So we opted for a 1.75"
In a nutshell it works like this. Smaller diameter tubes increase exhaust velocity. The increased exhaust velocity will give you torque gains. Where as air in and air out (volume) will give you horsepower. knowing that we wanted to still pick up some torque with these headers, because who doesn't love torque?
To get some of the torque lost with a 330 cubic inch engine with a 1.75" primary (thats on the upper end of ideal) We choked down the the tube leading to the main exhaust system for only a few inches. This resulted in picking up an extra 45wtq and over 45+whp
In fact, when we tested our header system on an all ready built E55. That had Throttle body, pulley, tune, cooling, and shorty headers. we were able to make that car an additional 50 wheel horsepower and way more torque without doing anything else. All this on a Dyno Dynamics dyno. Today with a race fuel tune (100 oct) that car is slapping down close to 600whp on the stock fuel system. I don't even know what it would do if the customer wanted to toss better injectors in it. You can see that link here with the specs and charts.
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...re-w-dyno.html
In a nutshell it works like this. Smaller diameter tubes increase exhaust velocity. The increased exhaust velocity will give you torque gains. Where as air in and air out (volume) will give you horsepower. knowing that we wanted to still pick up some torque with these headers, because who doesn't love torque?
To get some of the torque lost with a 330 cubic inch engine with a 1.75" primary (thats on the upper end of ideal) We choked down the the tube leading to the main exhaust system for only a few inches. This resulted in picking up an extra 45wtq and over 45+whp
In fact, when we tested our header system on an all ready built E55. That had Throttle body, pulley, tune, cooling, and shorty headers. we were able to make that car an additional 50 wheel horsepower and way more torque without doing anything else. All this on a Dyno Dynamics dyno. Today with a race fuel tune (100 oct) that car is slapping down close to 600whp on the stock fuel system. I don't even know what it would do if the customer wanted to toss better injectors in it. You can see that link here with the specs and charts.
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...re-w-dyno.html
Super Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 837
Likes: 25
From: seattle
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
I think that it is mostly splitting hairs on the diameter for torque on these engines. The larger diameter is not going to have as much of an effect because boost is going to fill the cylinder at low rpms and getting the air out is not hard at low rpms. I would be surprised to see tq loss on any decent header with a supercharged car. But going to large does not do any good either because the head can only flow so much and these engines are not high rpm motors. Plug in the specs on any header calculator and target your max power rpm and it is pretty much in the ball park of 1 5/8 to 1 3/4.
But primary length and equal length have a lot of effect on any header set. You could make two sets of headers with the same design and primary diameter and change the length of a couple tubes and end up with some very different power levels. If exhaust gases are colliding in the collector instead of timed to scavenge.
I have installed and looked at the ARH and MHP headers for the 63 motors. And Kleemann and supersprint headers for the 55k and a few others. I have not seen the MBH personally yet but get the feeling that Mike is focussed on the right things from what I have read. So far none of them are really fantastic in my opinion. Supersprints are the nicest I have seen. They are all good and make power but not off the charts beautiful and due to physical restraints not anywhere near equal length. In fact way off. I have built headers and know this is very hard to do and to have a price point that any of you would buy in at is probably not going to happen.
As the saying goes you get what you pay for. And there is nothing wrong with welded primary pipes if it is done correctly.
But primary length and equal length have a lot of effect on any header set. You could make two sets of headers with the same design and primary diameter and change the length of a couple tubes and end up with some very different power levels. If exhaust gases are colliding in the collector instead of timed to scavenge.
I have installed and looked at the ARH and MHP headers for the 63 motors. And Kleemann and supersprint headers for the 55k and a few others. I have not seen the MBH personally yet but get the feeling that Mike is focussed on the right things from what I have read. So far none of them are really fantastic in my opinion. Supersprints are the nicest I have seen. They are all good and make power but not off the charts beautiful and due to physical restraints not anywhere near equal length. In fact way off. I have built headers and know this is very hard to do and to have a price point that any of you would buy in at is probably not going to happen.
As the saying goes you get what you pay for. And there is nothing wrong with welded primary pipes if it is done correctly.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,659
Likes: 67
From: Atlanta
2006 E55 AMG
When I first set out making 55 headers. I was leaning towards a 1-5/8" primary. After some thinking about how these cars make boat loads of torque. I felt spinning the added torque a 1-5/8" primary would make over a 1.75" wouldn't do anyone any good in the long run. So we opted for a 1.75"
In a nutshell it works like this. Smaller diameter tubes increase exhaust velocity. The increased exhaust velocity will give you torque gains. Where as air in and air out (volume) will give you horsepower. knowing that we wanted to still pick up some torque with these headers, because who doesn't love torque?
To get some of the torque lost with a 330 cubic inch engine with a 1.75" primary (thats on the upper end of ideal) We choked down the the tube leading to the main exhaust system for only a few inches. This resulted in picking up an extra 45wtq and over 45+whp
In fact, when we tested our header system on an all ready built E55. That had Throttle body, pulley, tune, cooling, and shorty headers. we were able to make that car an additional 50 wheel horsepower and way more torque without doing anything else. All this on a Dyno Dynamics dyno. Today with a race fuel tune (100 oct) that car is slapping down close to 600whp on the stock fuel system. I don't even know what it would do if the customer wanted to toss better injectors in it. You can see that link here with the specs and charts.
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...re-w-dyno.html
In a nutshell it works like this. Smaller diameter tubes increase exhaust velocity. The increased exhaust velocity will give you torque gains. Where as air in and air out (volume) will give you horsepower. knowing that we wanted to still pick up some torque with these headers, because who doesn't love torque?
To get some of the torque lost with a 330 cubic inch engine with a 1.75" primary (thats on the upper end of ideal) We choked down the the tube leading to the main exhaust system for only a few inches. This resulted in picking up an extra 45wtq and over 45+whp
In fact, when we tested our header system on an all ready built E55. That had Throttle body, pulley, tune, cooling, and shorty headers. we were able to make that car an additional 50 wheel horsepower and way more torque without doing anything else. All this on a Dyno Dynamics dyno. Today with a race fuel tune (100 oct) that car is slapping down close to 600whp on the stock fuel system. I don't even know what it would do if the customer wanted to toss better injectors in it. You can see that link here with the specs and charts.
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...re-w-dyno.html
I could not imagine an E85 or race gas toooon.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 7
From: Northern Va
Dirt Scooters
I've been doing a lot of research for my headers also for my new build and there's a equation some guy came up with that you put all your info in and it tells you exactly what you need based on that and what your after and best of all it's dyno proven to work. With my new build I would need 1 7/8 primary and that's with more displacement,possibly more compression, real custom cams and it will be built for nitrous so the 619hp I was making will be nothing to what it will make after this. Lenth and collector size has a lot to do with overall power also. A big collector isn't always the best thing because you want to keep velocity up and the big collectors let the air cool faster slowing it down. For example a 358CI NASCAR engine makes 900hp and uses 1 7/8" into 2" that goes into a tri y megaphone that is usually 2.5" to 2.75" then opens up to 3"-3.5". Those cars live above 8000rpm and still use small collectors to keep exhaust flow up. Step headers seem to be the best solution to keep velocity high while flowing a lot also. I'll keep everyone posted on what I make with the custom headers I'm going to do.
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,305
Likes: 93
From: Valley of the Sun, Arizona
C63, SL55, E55, CLS55, ML63, C55
I've been doing a lot of research for my headers also for my new build and there's a equation some guy came up with that you put all your info in and it tells you exactly what you need based on that and what your after and best of all it's dyno proven to work. With my new build I would need 1 7/8 primary and that's with more displacement,possibly more compression, real custom cams and it will be built for nitrous so the 619hp I was making will be nothing to what it will make after this. Lenth and collector size has a lot to do with overall power also. A big collector isn't always the best thing because you want to keep velocity up and the big collectors let the air cool faster slowing it down. For example a 358CI NASCAR engine makes 900hp and uses 1 7/8" into 2" that goes into a tri y megaphone that is usually 2.5" to 2.75" then opens up to 3"-3.5". Those cars live above 8000rpm and still use small collectors to keep exhaust flow up. Step headers seem to be the best solution to keep velocity high while flowing a lot also. I'll keep everyone posted on what I make with the custom headers I'm going to do.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,276
Likes: 28
From: Bay Area
2015 E63S, 2018 E63S
I love my MBH headers, I love the sound that they give my exhaust and I love the slightest little hint of rumble that you get when coming down from a 2nd or 3rd gear acceleration. I set my exhaust system up the same way that MBH tested their headers to get those hp & tq #'s. MBH headers to stock secondarys to stock resonator to stock mufflers.
I have no doubt that the TTM/ARH headers are amazing otherwise Bruce wouldn't waist his time so whether you chose TTM or MBH I'm positive that you will be happier than a kid at Disneyland.
I have no doubt that the TTM/ARH headers are amazing otherwise Bruce wouldn't waist his time so whether you chose TTM or MBH I'm positive that you will be happier than a kid at Disneyland.
Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 193
Likes: 1
From: Orange County
Viper SRT-10, CLS 55 AMG, 2012 Tacoma Off Road 4x4
@ MBH, whipplem104, e55amgrocket. This is the information I have been wanting to discuss, thank you for your great information!!
So here is what I plan on doing to my beast:
180-185 pulley range
ported heads & cam (down the road when my warranty runs out)
90mm tb
custom intake
massive cooling mods
What are the thoughts on this setup with the 1 7/8 primarys and 3'' merge collector?
Here is what I have now:
MBH LT's with 1 3/4 primarys and a 2.5'' merge collector that flairs out to 3'' and a full 3'' exhaust with X-pipe, no cats. Here's my concern, I raced two different AMG's that had WAY MORE mods then I did and they both had custom LT's with 1 7/8 primarys and full 3'' merge collectors and I pulled on both of them (the cars had sat for a few hours and cooled equal time, so no heat soak excuses) several times on a highway runs from 30-140mph?!?! So now I don't know what to think, I do not want to spend money to step backwards... Should I just keep the system the way it is or do you all think I should go bigger based on what my future plans are??
So here is what I plan on doing to my beast:
180-185 pulley range
ported heads & cam (down the road when my warranty runs out)
90mm tb
custom intake
massive cooling mods
What are the thoughts on this setup with the 1 7/8 primarys and 3'' merge collector?
Here is what I have now:
MBH LT's with 1 3/4 primarys and a 2.5'' merge collector that flairs out to 3'' and a full 3'' exhaust with X-pipe, no cats. Here's my concern, I raced two different AMG's that had WAY MORE mods then I did and they both had custom LT's with 1 7/8 primarys and full 3'' merge collectors and I pulled on both of them (the cars had sat for a few hours and cooled equal time, so no heat soak excuses) several times on a highway runs from 30-140mph?!?! So now I don't know what to think, I do not want to spend money to step backwards... Should I just keep the system the way it is or do you all think I should go bigger based on what my future plans are??
Last edited by vipermike; May 8, 2012 at 08:26 PM.
