I have been reading alot about the new american musclecar lately. I know the LS6 engine in the Vette is a very quick car. Does anyone think GM can pull off an American competitor to both the E55 and coming M5.

Not sure I'm ready to just write them off as a pretender just yet. This engine can be easily modified to match or exceed AMG or M power ratings.

What think everyone???

 

I think that the CTS-V will be a contender posting impressive 0-60 & Quarter mile times in addition to impressive slalom and track times, however it will appeal to a different type of person than drives an E55 or M5, I think it is more of a competitor to the M3 and C32 and S4. (It also only comes in a "Six Speed Stick shift - no Automatic). It will still have that "Cheesey" Cadillac appearance, something out of a Mel Gibson after Armagedon look but will be able to endlessly spin it's rear wheels. (it only lacks a gun turret to complete the look!) I read a recent article that it's Nuremburg track times exceeded that of the BMW M5 whether this is true or not remains to be seen. Now that's pretty impressive but still an ugly "I wouldn't want to be seen driving one type of image either". It's price point isn't that great either, Cadillac Dealers have stated that there will be $10,000 or greater "Premiums" added to the limited amounts of units available + availability in only Black or Silver raising the price to over $60,000. My curiosity ended quickly after a brief discussion with the local dealer and looking at the lot full of CTS's and others with the "Post Armagedon" look. BMW and Mercedes have announced V8's in both the M3 and C55, I think this is where this car will really compete and compete well too! Just my .02

 

deaguero, LOL--I could not have put it any better myself.

 

That is funny! Mad Max with no resale value!

 

IMO I think it'll be a hell of a car. It will play in a different league though, as it slots in between the C32/M3 and the E55/M5... since it's a Caddy, the depreciation is likely to be utterly savage. I think I may pick one up as a daily driver 6 months after they roll out for $30-$35k

 

I am number 12 on my dealers list in a second tier city. They cannot give me a firm time for my E55 to be avail but their "best" guess is one year.

My thought was to pick up a CTS-V as in interim car....kinda a Corvette with 4 doors until the E55 was avail. Prob would be moderately fun so it seemed like a good idea...


HOWEVER, the last post of exceptionally poor resale has me worried. I don't mind taking a "normal" depreciation hit for driving a car for a year but a $20k dropoff does become unacceptable.

Question: Are Cadillac residual dropoff really this severe or is this speculation by kaneman. Wouldn't this car hold its value better than one of the ugly tanks that make up the rest of their line.

Appreciate the thoughts and input.

 

Yep, Cadillac cars have pretty much the sharpest decline in resale value of jut about any cars out there. The Cadillac trucks aren't too bad in terms of depreciation. BMW 7 series are also very quick to depreciate.

 

"I don't mind taking a "normal" depreciation hit for driving a car for a year but a $20k dropoff does become unacceptable."

Unfortunately, the past purchase of a 2002 W210 E55 in FY 2001/02 can also be deemed unacceptable. The value of 2002s have plummeted from $20 to $30K. Yes, one could rationalize this depreciation, but in the end it is still crazy for any MB to lose so much so quickly. Everyone should take that in mind as MB starts spinning out updates on a more frequent basis to stay competitive.

And I agree a caddy may take a steep hit, but $20K in 6 months is a bit optimistic. Of course I did not think that about my W210 either.

 

It's been my experience that to guestimate depreciation and tradein value to dealer use 25% for the first year, 40% for the second year and around 50% for the third year. This has held up for most of my tradeins with the exception of BMW M cars which on average depreciated at half these rates. In fact I just got a price on my E500 from the dealer toward my Oct E55 delivery and it's almost exactly 25% less than the MSRP I paid last NOV. Lease residual rates are notoriously bad as estimates for various reasons. I believe the two year residual rate on an E55 is about 67%, but you'd never see that at trade in time.

 

I agree that the Caddie will not hold its value very well but IMHO the worst car for resale values was/is the Q45.

Performance-wise GM can build good competitors but at the end of the day you still have a GM product in your garage.

 

Once Cadillac builds their name I don't think the depreciation will be as steep (notice I said once, not if... looking at Cadillac's recent direction with the Sixteen, Evoq and CTS-V I am very excited about their prospects as a luxury car maker.) Given that this is their first car that can actually compete with BMW and Mercedes in the real world and not just in a marketing exec's mind, it's not going to have the benefit of solid brand identification to bolster it's value. At the end of the day it's still a Caddy, and if you pay MSRP for it... a $15k drop once it's off the lot is normal. The only Cadillacs that don't drop like that are the Escalades.

 

I too am pleased to see Cadillac building a true performance sedan. Depreciation is unclear as there are at least 2 examples of GM cars holding value extremely well... ie the 86-87 Buick Grand Nationals and the 1994-1996 Impala SS both of which were relatively high performance low production models.

Ferraris hold value incredibly well... if you don't drive them

I think one of the all time best value holders was the 1996 Porsche 911 turbo. The car retailed new at apx $100k and could be resold for a profit or breakeven for several years. Even now, almost 8 years later, the dealer price is nearly $70k!!! Oh yeah, it is also one hell of a car!

Back to Cadillac (or Lincoln or Chrysler) I have long argued that GM and or Ford and Chrysler "could" build the best cars in the world if management actually commited itself to doing so. With the lack of confidence in American products these companies would need to take a loss on the product for a couple of years until they could establish themselves on a quality level. At one time made in the USA meant best in the world and made in Japan meant junk.

 

Say what you want about re-sale, image etc, the CTS-V series is a serious contender in sport sedan catagory, Autoweek posted 4.6 seconds 0 to 60 and it is actually faster than the W211-E55 and the RS6 around the "Ring". The nice thing is Ligenfelter (Respected Corvette Tuner) can pull as much as 580HP in the ZO6 from this motor for not many $$$'s, and are already working on a CTS-V application. Reportetly worth a 0-60 of 3.7secs!!

 

CTS-V is going to be a contender, no doubt about it, but it would be in a different way, I don't think people are going to decide for a CTS-V over a W211 E55, but they might over the C32 (or C55 in the future if produced).

It is too square IMO, sharp lines, odd. If they made the same with the STS, then the E55 would have a serious Cadillac contender.

 

This car IMO is the best GM product produced since the LS6 Chevelle. If GM could follow MB and BMW's leads and make true high perfomance vehicles in every one of their lines, then they can restore a lot of respect they lost from 1972 onward.

 

Richard, do you have any lap times for the W211 E55 and RS6 around the "Ring"?

Thanks

 

Bones, I think I do, somewhere I'll look them and post them.

 

Thanks, much appreciated.

 

I have a Corvette and an e55. The LS1/LS6 engines are have a much rougher and less refined feel than the mercedes V8s. While they get away with the rough, unrefined feel in the vette, I just don't see how there will be mass acceptance for this in the Caddy. I bet it is hot when it comes out, and the market gets very cold for it real guick 6mos to a year later. Many people like the new caddy look though, and many have no experience with a smooth running German engine so who knows.