FSP issues, open to suggestions
03-10-2015, 08:24 AM
#52
MBWorld Fanatic!
Here's the question before anyone says that they can live without certain features..
No airmatic
No ac
No cruise control
No keyless
Etc..
What's the point? Get yourself a race car instead
No airmatic
No ac
No cruise control
No keyless
Etc..
What's the point? Get yourself a race car instead
03-10-2015, 08:39 AM
#53
03-10-2015, 10:22 AM
#55
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C215 CL55 AMG, W124 500E, W210 E430, W124 300E
The Mitsubishi and Subaru communities went through this very thing for a while until somebody sat down and created an open source solution. From there many talented individuals contributed to the effort figuring out how to translate the code into tables, how to add definitions, and how to increase scalabilty, etc.....
In 2003, when I bought my Evo, anything above 750cc injectors would require the use of a standalone Ecu, converting from a MAF setup to speed density was a pipe dream unless on standalone, "bricking" a stock ecu was a more common occurrence. Now in 2015 the only limiting factor in injector size is what's available, speed density is everyday, adding in a wideband to be read by the ecu is common, true flex fuel is a reality, map sensor scaling is not an alien concept, ecu's are not bricking as commonly, etc.... Bottom line, full stock ecu control and program-ability. It changed the game on what we expected out of the aftermarket for those platforms. Hell, it put Cobb Tuning and AEM on their toes for more than a while.
So is it possible for us to have that? Yes, if we find talent within the community who is willing to give their time and efforts to do what was done for the Mitsubishi and Subaru communities.
In 2003, when I bought my Evo, anything above 750cc injectors would require the use of a standalone Ecu, converting from a MAF setup to speed density was a pipe dream unless on standalone, "bricking" a stock ecu was a more common occurrence. Now in 2015 the only limiting factor in injector size is what's available, speed density is everyday, adding in a wideband to be read by the ecu is common, true flex fuel is a reality, map sensor scaling is not an alien concept, ecu's are not bricking as commonly, etc.... Bottom line, full stock ecu control and program-ability. It changed the game on what we expected out of the aftermarket for those platforms. Hell, it put Cobb Tuning and AEM on their toes for more than a while.
So is it possible for us to have that? Yes, if we find talent within the community who is willing to give their time and efforts to do what was done for the Mitsubishi and Subaru communities.
Thats the problem with our current tuners, all they can do is alter some hex values on the different map tables to adjust for increased air, different fuels, etc.
So why is there one guy that has no issues with the box tune by EC???
Did the OP of this thread received the very latest file by Jerry?
03-10-2015, 02:20 PM
#56
Originally Posted by Moosepuck
Good luck! Everything on mine even slightly tune up related has been replaced in the last 3000 miles, to include fuel pumps and sending unit. I'll report back after BIP trip.
Last edited by kponti; 03-10-2015 at 02:23 PM.
03-10-2015, 06:25 PM
#57
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Thread Starter
03-10-2015, 06:53 PM
#58
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2005 E55 AMG
BIP will help you out a lot. They have been nothing but good to me. I have been doing the 10 second wait in key position 2 and haven't had the p0105 code come back. I'm pretty happy with my BIP tune. Like I said before. I drove 10 hours to Florida and then drove back with no problems.
03-10-2015, 08:27 PM
#59
MBWorld Fanatic!
The Mitsubishi and Subaru communities went through this very thing for a while until somebody sat down and created an open source solution. From there many talented individuals contributed to the effort figuring out how to translate the code into tables, how to add definitions, and how to increase scalabilty, etc.....
In 2003, when I bought my Evo, anything above 750cc injectors would require the use of a standalone Ecu, converting from a MAF setup to speed density was a pipe dream unless on standalone, "bricking" a stock ecu was a more common occurrence. Now in 2015 the only limiting factor in injector size is what's available, speed density is everyday, adding in a wideband to be read by the ecu is common, true flex fuel is a reality, map sensor scaling is not an alien concept, ecu's are not bricking as commonly, etc.... Bottom line, full stock ecu control and program-ability. It changed the game on what we expected out of the aftermarket for those platforms. Hell, it put Cobb Tuning and AEM on their toes for more than a while.
So is it possible for us to have that? Yes, if we find talent within the community who is willing to give their time and efforts to do what was done for the Mitsubishi and Subaru communities.
As to the second part of your question, the answer is yes and no. Because so much of the car's electronics are tied into an ecu, any aftermarket ecu solution would have to:
1) Be a piggyback solution that would modify and override only certain parameters that we want (not ideal as the ecu would probably try to fight some of the changes by it's inherent nature).
2) Would have to replace every ecu in the car (this would most likely have a give and take as you'd most likely have to eliminate some of the luxury features to make it do what you want the ecu to do).
3) Would be extremely expensive and potentially cost prohibitive to make if a solution to replace the ecu and retain EVERYTHING was developed (the market for this would be somewhat small as our family of cars is in teh thousands to begin with. The market for people willing to go to that extreme is only a select percentage of what's out there).
Make no mistake gentlemen, if I had the knowledge of how to write code or the ability to pull my ROM data, I'd happily give my time to collaborate on such a project. Alas, I do not. However, the guys over on OpenECU do. Perhaps someone within our community with the ability to pull our ROM data could start a dialogue there and maybe make something happen.
That's enough of my soapbox rant of the day. I'm off to work.
In 2003, when I bought my Evo, anything above 750cc injectors would require the use of a standalone Ecu, converting from a MAF setup to speed density was a pipe dream unless on standalone, "bricking" a stock ecu was a more common occurrence. Now in 2015 the only limiting factor in injector size is what's available, speed density is everyday, adding in a wideband to be read by the ecu is common, true flex fuel is a reality, map sensor scaling is not an alien concept, ecu's are not bricking as commonly, etc.... Bottom line, full stock ecu control and program-ability. It changed the game on what we expected out of the aftermarket for those platforms. Hell, it put Cobb Tuning and AEM on their toes for more than a while.
So is it possible for us to have that? Yes, if we find talent within the community who is willing to give their time and efforts to do what was done for the Mitsubishi and Subaru communities.
As to the second part of your question, the answer is yes and no. Because so much of the car's electronics are tied into an ecu, any aftermarket ecu solution would have to:
1) Be a piggyback solution that would modify and override only certain parameters that we want (not ideal as the ecu would probably try to fight some of the changes by it's inherent nature).
2) Would have to replace every ecu in the car (this would most likely have a give and take as you'd most likely have to eliminate some of the luxury features to make it do what you want the ecu to do).
3) Would be extremely expensive and potentially cost prohibitive to make if a solution to replace the ecu and retain EVERYTHING was developed (the market for this would be somewhat small as our family of cars is in teh thousands to begin with. The market for people willing to go to that extreme is only a select percentage of what's out there).
Make no mistake gentlemen, if I had the knowledge of how to write code or the ability to pull my ROM data, I'd happily give my time to collaborate on such a project. Alas, I do not. However, the guys over on OpenECU do. Perhaps someone within our community with the ability to pull our ROM data could start a dialogue there and maybe make something happen.
That's enough of my soapbox rant of the day. I'm off to work.
03-10-2015, 08:48 PM
#60
MBWorld Fanatic!
You can use a stand alone now without having to crack anything but lose a lot of convenience functions, if you want to keep them then it takes a lot of work, be prepared to wait along time and pay big time
03-10-2015, 09:00 PM
#61
MBWorld Fanatic!
I'll do some research into who can do it and what it takes and how difficult it is. I never knew that it was "locked". I always assumed that it was just a weak ECU that didn't have the functionality that the MoTek and other standalones had.
03-10-2015, 09:02 PM
#62
MBWorld Fanatic!
Motek is the bomb!
I wouldn't say it's weak but it certainly has limits with the current tuning
Btw do some searches and many have wanted to do what you want and starts all strong and then dies out, probably because of the work that's needed and the money to back each unit
I wouldn't say it's weak but it certainly has limits with the current tuning
Btw do some searches and many have wanted to do what you want and starts all strong and then dies out, probably because of the work that's needed and the money to back each unit
03-10-2015, 09:15 PM
#63
MBWorld Fanatic!
You're probably right. I know a few guys who are into this sort of stuff. Let me see what they say and what it actually takes because I'm still not really understanding what there is to crack. Is the software itself closed source or is there some type of "electronic lock" there?
03-10-2015, 10:23 PM
#65
Member
Thread Starter
Some code-smart guys at ecuproject.com, they did a lot for the Saab community (yes, I said that) but I suggest you guys start a new thread for this if you want collaboration and more input, i suspect this topic has been discussed before....Maybe not. Let's try and stay on the FSP here please. As someone that searches a lot before I ask questions, I appreciate threads that are complete and on topic. I'll make sure this one at least has an ending, good or bad!
Carry on....
Carry on....
Last edited by Moosepuck; 03-11-2015 at 07:52 AM.
03-11-2015, 09:50 AM
#66
Some code-smart guys at ecuproject.com, they did a lot for the Saab community (yes, I said that) but I suggest you guys start a new thread for this if you want collaboration and more input, i suspect this topic has been discussed before....Maybe not. Let's try and stay on the FSP here please. As someone that searches a lot before I ask questions, I appreciate threads that are complete and on topic. I'll make sure this one at least has an ending, good or bad!
Carry on....
Carry on....
And since seafoam or lucas injection cleaner solved my cold start and hiccup problems, I still think there might be "some" mechanical aspect to this fsp problem. However I will know by next week cos my tank and all corresponding parts will be replaced. If there is any mechanical contribution to these issues at all, my car should be much much improved (not expecting a full fix).
Moose please update after your trip to BIP
03-11-2015, 11:29 AM
#67
Agreed!
And since seafoam or lucas injection cleaner solved my cold start and hiccup problems, I still think there might be "some" mechanical aspect to this fsp problem. However I will know by next week cos my tank and all corresponding parts will be replaced. If there is any mechanical contribution to these issues at all, my car should be much much improved (not expecting a full fix).
Moose please update after your trip to BIP
And since seafoam or lucas injection cleaner solved my cold start and hiccup problems, I still think there might be "some" mechanical aspect to this fsp problem. However I will know by next week cos my tank and all corresponding parts will be replaced. If there is any mechanical contribution to these issues at all, my car should be much much improved (not expecting a full fix).
Moose please update after your trip to BIP
I've had all the FSP symptoms and issues and logged it all to death. I did work with Jerry to get a custom built tune to my car and every symptom is gone. I can even run it with or without a resistor in the harness at this point. No power dip at throttle tip in, not bog after shifts, no cold start rough running and inability to accelerate. If it was fuel pressure related then you should log your fuel pressure via a pressure sensor you add or mechanical gauge where it's in view. It's not sea foam curing your issues. You need factual information to come to a resolution not speculation. Sure your getting your parts replaced, great but why wouldn't you gathering information by logging fuel pressure etc instead of making assumptions? Now you will have no clue what your fuel pressure was like prior to and can't compare it to post repairs, so if it's fixed you won't know what the real fuel delivery issue was to even be of benefit if that's what you believe.
Last edited by 1ForcedBenz; 03-11-2015 at 11:34 AM.
03-11-2015, 02:17 PM
#68
MBWorld Fanatic!
Basically. It's just time with the ecu. Whether for understanding it better, or for tuning your particular car.
It's a pretty standard thing on this forum. A fundamental misunderstanding of basic mechanical knowledge, and further, the same misunderstanding of what is going on with the tuning. And I think it's the reason people have continued to be accepting of the "black box" status of the ecu.
It's a pretty standard thing on this forum. A fundamental misunderstanding of basic mechanical knowledge, and further, the same misunderstanding of what is going on with the tuning. And I think it's the reason people have continued to be accepting of the "black box" status of the ecu.
03-11-2015, 04:04 PM
#69
You really can't be serious to think Lucas or Seafoam in your tank solved the hiccup do you?! Thats pure coincidence at best, I hope you haven't told your Tuner that and expect them to flash a Seafoam tune to the car that mimics what ever you think it's doing to make your car run right.
I've had all the FSP symptoms and issues and logged it all to death. I did work with Jerry to get a custom built tune to my car and every symptom is gone. I can even run it with or without a resistor in the harness at this point. No power dip at throttle tip in, not bog after shifts, no cold start rough running and inability to accelerate. If it was fuel pressure related then you should log your fuel pressure via a pressure sensor you add or mechanical gauge where it's in view. It's not sea foam curing your issues. You need factual information to come to a resolution not speculation. Sure your getting your parts replaced, great but why wouldn't you gathering information by logging fuel pressure etc instead of making assumptions? Now you will have no clue what your fuel pressure was like prior to and can't compare it to post repairs, so if it's fixed you won't know what the real fuel delivery issue was to even be of benefit if that's what you believe.
I've had all the FSP symptoms and issues and logged it all to death. I did work with Jerry to get a custom built tune to my car and every symptom is gone. I can even run it with or without a resistor in the harness at this point. No power dip at throttle tip in, not bog after shifts, no cold start rough running and inability to accelerate. If it was fuel pressure related then you should log your fuel pressure via a pressure sensor you add or mechanical gauge where it's in view. It's not sea foam curing your issues. You need factual information to come to a resolution not speculation. Sure your getting your parts replaced, great but why wouldn't you gathering information by logging fuel pressure etc instead of making assumptions? Now you will have no clue what your fuel pressure was like prior to and can't compare it to post repairs, so if it's fixed you won't know what the real fuel delivery issue was to even be of benefit if that's what you believe.
Also my suspicion is YOUR fixes after all those hours of logging etc is mostly a mask. A way your tuner has fixed the symptom as it occurs by adjusting the fuel maps for each scenario. I bet given odd weather fluctuations, you will experience some of those symptoms again (ie it's MOSTLY gone, not 100% gone).
There is a reason why some experience some issues and other have just about no issues with the FSP. And if you have ever done differential diagnosis, you will see that sometimes its the seemingly unrelated observations or results that leads to eventual resolution hence my still pounding on the injector cleaning thing. Something allows it to work well for 4 or 5 tankfuls so far. I am not sure what or why so I am addressing fuel problems by replacing tank, pumps, and sending units to begin with. If that does not work, I will be looking at timing (my logs show increased timing advance with those cleaners in place) and in that case it may be some aspects of the maps that are different from car to car triggering that lean conditions when certain parameters are not met. Either way, I am not professing to know or recommending anyone use tank cleaners to fix their FSP problems. I would like someone else to try it though and see if anything happens
Last edited by kponti; 03-11-2015 at 04:42 PM.
03-11-2015, 04:09 PM
#70
And to add, if my problems are fixed via fuel system replacement (when I KNOW for a fact my filters are dirty and my tank is leaking), why will it be a wrong assumption that I had a fuel delivery problem? I am running a similar tune from BIP that another member is running on his car with NO issues whatsoever however I have issues galore.
By your statement if I put a smaller pulley on my car and pick up 3MPH trap speed, can I say it could be the added increased exhaust flow and not the increased boost cos I did not measure my MAP readings prior to putting the smaller pulley on?
By your statement if I put a smaller pulley on my car and pick up 3MPH trap speed, can I say it could be the added increased exhaust flow and not the increased boost cos I did not measure my MAP readings prior to putting the smaller pulley on?
Last edited by kponti; 03-11-2015 at 04:11 PM.
03-11-2015, 06:42 PM
#71
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C215 CL55 AMG, W124 500E, W210 E430, W124 300E
Hi Kponti,
Seafoam is just a cleaner, in fact its 99% petroleum. I cant imagine how that would cure "the typical FSP issues". Maybe thats all a coincidence. And if not? Then its a mechanical fuel issue as you say.
What about the injectors? Are yours stock? How about the other guys Injectors?
The E55 models received larger CCs injectors in 2005 or so, are the tuner aware of that when they sending the files?
Its so hard to diagnose these issues from "outside", we need a tuner to chime in here and provide a solution to those issues.
Seafoam is just a cleaner, in fact its 99% petroleum. I cant imagine how that would cure "the typical FSP issues". Maybe thats all a coincidence. And if not? Then its a mechanical fuel issue as you say.
What about the injectors? Are yours stock? How about the other guys Injectors?
The E55 models received larger CCs injectors in 2005 or so, are the tuner aware of that when they sending the files?
Its so hard to diagnose these issues from "outside", we need a tuner to chime in here and provide a solution to those issues.
03-11-2015, 06:50 PM
#72
Senior Member
i like the open source idea but dont believe a lot has been published on 55 ecu compared to Ford and GM.... Just for grins i took a hex editor and looked at a boxed tune only and nothing was really intuitive -- i also did a hex compare file with the tune only and a tune i received for the 83mm pulley -- no differences at all -- it does not make any sense to me -- i would really like to have a FSP in stock either 83 or 89 but very concerned that these tunes are not done very well and we are test rats with some expensive engines --
03-11-2015, 07:14 PM
#73
Hi Kponti,
Seafoam is just a cleaner, in fact its 99% petroleum. I cant imagine how that would cure "the typical FSP issues". Maybe thats all a coincidence. And if not? Then its a mechanical fuel issue as you say.
What about the injectors? Are yours stock? How about the other guys Injectors?
The E55 models received larger CCs injectors in 2005 or so, are the tuner aware of that when they sending the files?
Its so hard to diagnose these issues from "outside", we need a tuner to chime in here and provide a solution to those issues.
Seafoam is just a cleaner, in fact its 99% petroleum. I cant imagine how that would cure "the typical FSP issues". Maybe thats all a coincidence. And if not? Then its a mechanical fuel issue as you say.
What about the injectors? Are yours stock? How about the other guys Injectors?
The E55 models received larger CCs injectors in 2005 or so, are the tuner aware of that when they sending the files?
Its so hard to diagnose these issues from "outside", we need a tuner to chime in here and provide a solution to those issues.
That being said I hope people are understanding my point. I am under NO illusion that Seafoam will cure your FSP woes! I am however saying that when I pour one bottle into MY full tank of gas, I get two of my three problems temporarily go away until the tank is empty and I put regular 93 octane back in.
I have 3 issues with the FSP. Cold start, periodic hiccups at least once every other day, and lastly shift lag. I am not pursing the shift lag until I have the first two solved. Tony has sent me 3 maps total, none solved any of the 3 problems (even though they were specifically made to solve those problems). The severity lessened to some extent but it still happens.
When I did the seafoam treatment, I did not expect anything, it was around the time I usually do it anyway. Just happened to eliminate the first two issues. I went a bit over a week without a single hiccup or cold start issue. After the tank was empty and I refilled, the cold start lean pretty much happened on the next time I cold started the car. Soon after I had a hiccup going to work. After half that tank was gone, I put another bottle of Seafoam, refilled tank and viola, no problems for another week. I informed Tony who asked when the last time my fuel filters were replaced (it had been almost 50k miles). Made me think.....and that leads me to here today with my car at the dealer driving a real piece of crap C250 (good power, feels, drives and sounds like a Hyundai Elantra).
I did not know the 2005 injectors were larger, I thought only the 2006s got the larger injectors. That will explain my excessively rich tunes from both BIP and Eurocharged. Tony was worried I might be dumping fuel when I told him my AFRs initially. He leaned it out and its all good now.
Last edited by kponti; 03-11-2015 at 07:16 PM.
03-11-2015, 07:35 PM
#74
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C215 CL55 AMG, W124 500E, W210 E430, W124 300E
I don't know...i mean.. i just re-read all your other posts (and some other post by others) in this topic...
What wonders me though, if this is really fuel stuff related, why does a 5-10seconds wait with key in position 2, alleviate that so called "cold-start issue" ? Whats your point about this? How to explain that... ?
And why does it only happen during cold starts...
Regarding the injectors, im not sure when exactly, would need to check EPC/WIS. I thought to be around 2005. Well Maybe it was 2006 really.
That the BOX tunes are extremely rich is well known, i read it soooo often here in the forums, i thought they do it for safety reasons, but i think in stock form they run extreme rich already - my exhaust tips are getting black every week. I clean them more often than the wheels.
However my Long Term Fuel trims via STAR show me -8% adjustment on both banks. I think my 1st O2 sensors are getting veeery slow and its time for a change.
When do you changed your O2 sensors the last time? Ohh and did you reset your ECU via STAR after the tune? I heard this has to be done together with a reset of the TB values.
What wonders me though, if this is really fuel stuff related, why does a 5-10seconds wait with key in position 2, alleviate that so called "cold-start issue" ? Whats your point about this? How to explain that... ?
And why does it only happen during cold starts...
Regarding the injectors, im not sure when exactly, would need to check EPC/WIS. I thought to be around 2005. Well Maybe it was 2006 really.
That the BOX tunes are extremely rich is well known, i read it soooo often here in the forums, i thought they do it for safety reasons, but i think in stock form they run extreme rich already - my exhaust tips are getting black every week. I clean them more often than the wheels.
However my Long Term Fuel trims via STAR show me -8% adjustment on both banks. I think my 1st O2 sensors are getting veeery slow and its time for a change.
When do you changed your O2 sensors the last time? Ohh and did you reset your ECU via STAR after the tune? I heard this has to be done together with a reset of the TB values.
03-11-2015, 08:22 PM
#75
Yes all those maintenance stuff has been changed in the last 10k miles or less. I own a Star/DAS system and use it often.
Short response but think about it and see if if there is something to it. On the subject of cold start....What if the pumps are on demand and both do not necessarily work at the same time unless you are in boost? What if the car defaults to using only one pump at startup during those cold start issue days? And what if the MAP sensor codes we get are because the MAP sensor does not come online till for a few seconds on cold starts?However when the cold start lean issues come on, the car is confused and does not turn on the second pump cos it isn't expecting the MAP to be seeing such values at idle. All this takes place before the tuning modification portion of the maps from BIP/Eurocharged are called into play by the ECU
Run that around in your heads and lets see what anyone can come up with, how it ties to the Seafoam crap....I have no idea
Short response but think about it and see if if there is something to it. On the subject of cold start....What if the pumps are on demand and both do not necessarily work at the same time unless you are in boost? What if the car defaults to using only one pump at startup during those cold start issue days? And what if the MAP sensor codes we get are because the MAP sensor does not come online till for a few seconds on cold starts?However when the cold start lean issues come on, the car is confused and does not turn on the second pump cos it isn't expecting the MAP to be seeing such values at idle. All this takes place before the tuning modification portion of the maps from BIP/Eurocharged are called into play by the ECU
Run that around in your heads and lets see what anyone can come up with, how it ties to the Seafoam crap....I have no idea
