FSP issues, open to suggestions
03-11-2015, 08:54 PM
#76
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C215 CL55 AMG, W124 500E, W210 E430, W124 300E
The pumps do run for a few seconds as soon as the key is in pos2 to create pressure in the system.
I have more the feeling that its because the resistor simulates an enganged supercharger clutch, while the ECU is in reality expecting it to be not engaged during startup. But that does not play well with the Seafoam stuff.
I know during times when the so called "Hiccup issue", the "other" super lean mode appeared, i asked some well known german tuners that do tunes to these engines since years. Take note please that the hiccup issue is not only related to a FSP. Many users assumed its 82mm TB related and they got that issue already before the FSPs were out. Back to tuner from germany...
Of course they are all competitors and the one that answered me, he laughed about the US tuners unable to solve this and he had written me something short and following it, i wrote this text to Denroll and longun from EC back in the days:
I dont know if that is of any help since i personally have no idea about it at all. Its just those 3 points one has written me.
I have more the feeling that its because the resistor simulates an enganged supercharger clutch, while the ECU is in reality expecting it to be not engaged during startup. But that does not play well with the Seafoam stuff.
I know during times when the so called "Hiccup issue", the "other" super lean mode appeared, i asked some well known german tuners that do tunes to these engines since years. Take note please that the hiccup issue is not only related to a FSP. Many users assumed its 82mm TB related and they got that issue already before the FSPs were out. Back to tuner from germany...
Of course they are all competitors and the one that answered me, he laughed about the US tuners unable to solve this and he had written me something short and following it, i wrote this text to Denroll and longun from EC back in the days:
Anyway, do you personally have ideas about how the ECU in the 55Kompressor car works?
Because i have spoken with some german tuners that use 82mm TBs since years, with large Crank pulleys, headers, larger injectors etc and they have no hiccup issues at all, but they do know apparently what is causing them.
They explained it to me that the car has multiple maps for fuel timing etc.
But also the 55K ECU has many so called "backup maps", that are used when a sensor fails or reads non plausible values - even if just for a short second, the ECU immediately switches to such a backup map.
When the sensor is not completely broken, a restart of the car (ignition off on) switches the ECU back to the normal maps - just like the users with the hiccup issue described it.
The german tuners basically told me that the hiccup issue i have described them, after telling them how the users described their issue in this forums here, is because of 3 issues:
1. Most tuners they believe, do not alter those "backup maps". So when the ECU had a short issue with any sensor (such as the pressure sensor) and switches to such a backup map, it will cause the described issues by the users, which are namely a very lean running mode (see for instance Denrolls graphic logs)
2. With the 82mm TB, the tuner must adapt the ECU for the changed pulsation and pressure forces, otherwise the pressure sensor will not pass a so called "plausibility check" and will over short or long time trigger a pressure sensor trouble code. This will let the ECU use a backup map and if that backup map is not altered for all the mods, the car will run very bad (lean etc).
3. The pressure sensors go often bad (or rather "weak" like they described it to me after their experience), especially the original BOSCH ones, thats why MB changed to a OEM in Japan with the new "005 153 72 28" Number for the M113Ks.
I hope this is of help and you can give that info to jerry.
Lets iron these hiccup issues out, like some german tuners have already.
Because i have spoken with some german tuners that use 82mm TBs since years, with large Crank pulleys, headers, larger injectors etc and they have no hiccup issues at all, but they do know apparently what is causing them.
They explained it to me that the car has multiple maps for fuel timing etc.
But also the 55K ECU has many so called "backup maps", that are used when a sensor fails or reads non plausible values - even if just for a short second, the ECU immediately switches to such a backup map.
When the sensor is not completely broken, a restart of the car (ignition off on) switches the ECU back to the normal maps - just like the users with the hiccup issue described it.
The german tuners basically told me that the hiccup issue i have described them, after telling them how the users described their issue in this forums here, is because of 3 issues:
1. Most tuners they believe, do not alter those "backup maps". So when the ECU had a short issue with any sensor (such as the pressure sensor) and switches to such a backup map, it will cause the described issues by the users, which are namely a very lean running mode (see for instance Denrolls graphic logs)
2. With the 82mm TB, the tuner must adapt the ECU for the changed pulsation and pressure forces, otherwise the pressure sensor will not pass a so called "plausibility check" and will over short or long time trigger a pressure sensor trouble code. This will let the ECU use a backup map and if that backup map is not altered for all the mods, the car will run very bad (lean etc).
3. The pressure sensors go often bad (or rather "weak" like they described it to me after their experience), especially the original BOSCH ones, thats why MB changed to a OEM in Japan with the new "005 153 72 28" Number for the M113Ks.
I hope this is of help and you can give that info to jerry.
Lets iron these hiccup issues out, like some german tuners have already.
03-12-2015, 07:15 AM
#78
Crissus you pretty much nailed it on the head with what you heard from the German tuners! I did always suspect that our tuners may not be tuning all the different tables in the ecu and whenever any untuned map is called on, the car hoes haywire.
Yes this issue was also present worth larger TBs (which I have). However I did not have the hiccups like what I have with the fsp
Yes this issue was also present worth larger TBs (which I have). However I did not have the hiccups like what I have with the fsp
03-12-2015, 07:28 AM
#79
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C215 CL55 AMG, W124 500E, W210 E430, W124 300E
Ich kenne allerdings 2 tuner, die für M113K tunen, da kannst du mal anfragen. In der Regel halten die aber von dem Ammi kram garnichts und ich würde mich nicht wundern, wenn die es ablehenen würden für en FSP zu tunen. Schreib mir mal ne PN hier.
Crissus you pretty much nailed it on the head with what you heard from the German tuners! I did always suspect that our tuners may not be tuning all the different tables in the ecu and whenever any untuned map is called on, the car hoes haywire.
Yes this issue was also present worth larger TBs (which I have). However I did not have the hiccups like what I have with the fsp
Yes this issue was also present worth larger TBs (which I have). However I did not have the hiccups like what I have with the fsp
Thats why i hope a tuner will read it here and solve these issues with a proper box tune.
However even if my infos are true, it does not explain the issue that goes away when you put injection cleaners into your fuelsystem...
03-12-2015, 07:34 AM
#80
MBWorld Fanatic!
You guys do know that Jerry and Jeremy and other tuners all talk to German tuners on some forums for tuning. They even help/sell each other different scripts/tunes. So it's not like tuners here don't communicate with each other
03-12-2015, 07:36 AM
#81
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Do you know such a tuner forums? Can you point me to one?
03-12-2015, 07:53 AM
#82
MBWorld Fanatic!
Ecu connections, ecu edit, etc.
There's many forums out there. Please don't go around there asking questions for a solution to this because scammers will probably come out and say they can fix it and send you some bs script for X amount of dollars
Reason why the fsp doesn't work? Can't say except the the ecu wants a clutch for some reason, safety is the main reason in my opinion. This is just a guess but who really knows
There's many forums out there. Please don't go around there asking questions for a solution to this because scammers will probably come out and say they can fix it and send you some bs script for X amount of dollars
Reason why the fsp doesn't work? Can't say except the the ecu wants a clutch for some reason, safety is the main reason in my opinion. This is just a guess but who really knows
03-12-2015, 08:13 AM
#83
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Hopefully the OP can ask BIP IF they tuned him successfully, what the issue was. If it was a "his car specific issue" or something wrong in the box tune?
03-12-2015, 08:55 AM
#84
MBWorld Fanatic!
Hulk...How about this thought. Is it possible that the MAP sensor is reading slight boost pressure when normally there should be nothing.....and the ECU does not know what to do? Just a thinking about what and why the ECU is reacting the way it is.
03-12-2015, 11:37 AM
#86
I found this comment regarding Seafoam,,,, maybe a hotter plug or timing change will eliminate some of the FSP issues
SeaFoam's primary purpose is actually as a combustion chamber and valve cleaner. It accomplishes this by essentially spiking the combustion temperature to burn off carbon deposits. This puts an end to smoking and missing from dirty rings and valves in some cases. When really necessary, this is an appropriate thing to do. Unfortunately, a lot of people treat it as a cure-all, and also tend to think that "more is better" and over-dose. This only serves to further spike the combustion chamber temperature and easily damage the engine
SeaFoam's primary purpose is actually as a combustion chamber and valve cleaner. It accomplishes this by essentially spiking the combustion temperature to burn off carbon deposits. This puts an end to smoking and missing from dirty rings and valves in some cases. When really necessary, this is an appropriate thing to do. Unfortunately, a lot of people treat it as a cure-all, and also tend to think that "more is better" and over-dose. This only serves to further spike the combustion chamber temperature and easily damage the engine
03-12-2015, 03:21 PM
#87
Member
Thread Starter
Success!
Tony is the man, it was great to meet those guys and get my car running right again. No more surging, no more random super sensitive throttle response, odd hiccups, no more resistor.... I'll leave the graphs here, I didn't get a print out with the torque #'s, but it was 676ft lbs! A much happier drive home....the green line was my car as it was when I showed up this morning. My suggestions to those wanting a FSP, get a dyno tune with it. Hopefully it won't end up costing you $1200 and loads of headaches! Lesson learned.....
Disregard the flat line on the AFR, that was after shutting down and not hitting the stop button....
btw, it doesn't matter to me if this dyno reads high or low, I got what I wanted out of it....my torque back!
Enjoy!
Disregard the flat line on the AFR, that was after shutting down and not hitting the stop button....
btw, it doesn't matter to me if this dyno reads high or low, I got what I wanted out of it....my torque back!
Enjoy!
03-12-2015, 03:33 PM
#88
Congrats man!
Like I had said in the messages we exchanged once it works you know it immediately! The car just harmonizes and all the glitches are gone, and you don't even need seafoam.. Bahahaha....
But again seriously happy you stuck it out and got it right. Because when it's working correctly with a custom tune it's pretty much a no brainer mod. Just like I had come to learn and was saying its just a mod at this point which requires a custom built tune. And now everyone can see the resistor isn't the issue either!
Like I had said in the messages we exchanged once it works you know it immediately! The car just harmonizes and all the glitches are gone, and you don't even need seafoam.. Bahahaha....
But again seriously happy you stuck it out and got it right. Because when it's working correctly with a custom tune it's pretty much a no brainer mod. Just like I had come to learn and was saying its just a mod at this point which requires a custom built tune. And now everyone can see the resistor isn't the issue either!
Tony is the man, it was great to meet those guys and get my car running right again. No more surging, no more random super sensitive throttle response, odd hiccups, no more resistor.... I'll leave the graphs here, I didn't get a print out with the torque #'s, but it was 676ft lbs! A much happier drive home....the green line was my car as it was when I showed up this morning. My suggestions to those wanting a FSP, get a dyno tune with it. Hopefully it won't end up costing you $1200 and loads of headaches! Lesson learned.....
Disregard the flat line on the AFR, that was after shutting down and not hitting the stop button....
btw, it doesn't matter to me if this dyno reads high or low, I got what I wanted out of it....my torque back!
Enjoy!
Disregard the flat line on the AFR, that was after shutting down and not hitting the stop button....
btw, it doesn't matter to me if this dyno reads high or low, I got what I wanted out of it....my torque back!
Enjoy!
03-12-2015, 03:44 PM
#89
MBWorld Fanatic!
Congrats on getting it resolved and sharing it.
So to get the FSP working right, you just need a custom tune to adjust the afr and timing? Or are there other parameters involved?
So to get the FSP working right, you just need a custom tune to adjust the afr and timing? Or are there other parameters involved?
03-12-2015, 04:16 PM
#90
Senior Member
So in theory could any tuner do a custom tune to get these running right?
It's just that I am in New Zealand and don't want to take it into get a custom tune only to find the tuner doesn't know the tricks etc that are needed for these pulleys which could end up costing me 1000's in tuning time
Did BIP do a full new tune?
Or did they alter the current tune to run better?
Thanks
It's just that I am in New Zealand and don't want to take it into get a custom tune only to find the tuner doesn't know the tricks etc that are needed for these pulleys which could end up costing me 1000's in tuning time
Did BIP do a full new tune?
Or did they alter the current tune to run better?
Thanks
03-12-2015, 04:20 PM
#91
MBWorld Fanatic!
You were running crazy lean on the green line. Congrats, on your resolution.
03-12-2015, 04:53 PM
#93
Member
Thread Starter
So in theory could any tuner do a custom tune to get these running right?
It's just that I am in New Zealand and don't want to take it into get a custom tune only to find the tuner doesn't know the tricks etc that are needed for these pulleys which could end up costing me 1000's in tuning time
Did BIP do a full new tune?
Or did they alter the current tune to run better?
Thanks
It's just that I am in New Zealand and don't want to take it into get a custom tune only to find the tuner doesn't know the tricks etc that are needed for these pulleys which could end up costing me 1000's in tuning time
Did BIP do a full new tune?
Or did they alter the current tune to run better?
Thanks
here are a couple of crappy dyno vids, just for entertainment:
03-12-2015, 05:37 PM
#94
MBWorld Fanatic!
Congrats Moose. No issues in the ATL traffic is very promising.
What are your mods? We have the same numbers on the same dyno. I even had that same torque spike on one run but we threw it out.
What are your mods? We have the same numbers on the same dyno. I even had that same torque spike on one run but we threw it out.
03-12-2015, 08:18 PM
#95
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AMAZING!!! So it could be done that the FSPs run great without glitches. Even without the resistor... incredible! People listen up!
So what is the conclusion now? Dyno Tune strongly needed and tuners need the cars at hand?
If so, well we guys over the pond are ****ed basically.
I dont want to imply anything bad about the tuners, but this whole story now with dyno-tune/custom-tune required is a bit strange. A good working dyno tune with mods XY could be used as a good base box-tune.
Might this FSP maybe (become) some sort of a "cash cow" for the tuners? There is a secret value maybe that they only changing when you dyno tune the car with them?
Because, lets say Moosepuck, i have the same car as you with the same mods. What is restricting them to use your final dyno-tune file and simply sell it to me as a "box tune", saving us time and me money?
Please let me know what people like us in europe should do? Our tuners are frcking expensive over here, something like a "box tune" is not known as far as i know at the mercedes tuners. They only know dyno-tunes here, maybe "street tune" aswell. And i bet my ***, that they would not tune for a FSP on our plattforms, they hate stuff like this that was not made for the concept our engines run. Its also about warranty and other possible claims by the users.
So what is the conclusion now? Dyno Tune strongly needed and tuners need the cars at hand?
If so, well we guys over the pond are ****ed basically.
I dont want to imply anything bad about the tuners, but this whole story now with dyno-tune/custom-tune required is a bit strange. A good working dyno tune with mods XY could be used as a good base box-tune.
Might this FSP maybe (become) some sort of a "cash cow" for the tuners? There is a secret value maybe that they only changing when you dyno tune the car with them?
Because, lets say Moosepuck, i have the same car as you with the same mods. What is restricting them to use your final dyno-tune file and simply sell it to me as a "box tune", saving us time and me money?
Please let me know what people like us in europe should do? Our tuners are frcking expensive over here, something like a "box tune" is not known as far as i know at the mercedes tuners. They only know dyno-tunes here, maybe "street tune" aswell. And i bet my ***, that they would not tune for a FSP on our plattforms, they hate stuff like this that was not made for the concept our engines run. Its also about warranty and other possible claims by the users.
03-12-2015, 09:45 PM
#99
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2012 Volt - 2005 E55 - 2011 G55 - 2013 GL63
Good to hear BIP got it working for you. You honestly had me scared with this thread thinking I made a bad choice to have the FSP installed on my car. BIP said they could get it tuned and they have had it the last bit doing it and some more upgrades. I get the car back in about 2 weeks when I get back to the US.
