DerekFSU

I've now had the Kleemann Stage 2 for about 2 months. This includes the ECU, headers, pulley (edited to add pulley) and sport filters. Additionally, the tires were swapped out for Michelin PS2's. Exhaust note became slightly deeper and just a bit louder. I wanted it to sound stock and it was not far off.

Dyno showed 403 hp and 442 torque at the wheels on a dynojet. After the mods, dyno showed 460 hp and 513 torque at the wheels. Kleemann claims these mods will provide 593 hp and 626 torque at the crank. "Assuming" a 17% drivetrain loss of power from the crank to the wheels, the dyno should have read (in a perfect world) 492 hp and 520 torque. Obviously the torque is pretty much right on where the HP was lacking.

Next up is real world performance. The butt dyno said it was definitely quicker and so did the burning of the new and much grippier PS2's. Traction is DEFINITELY a problem. I run it twice and am very disapointed. Best run is a 12.28 (best stock run was a 12.33) and most runs are between 12.3 and 12.5, exactly where I was stock. Traction with ESP off makes it impossible to floor it until nearly 40 mph or it just goes sideways. With ESP on, it would lose traction but then slam the brakes so hard so my 60' times were horrible, usually at and a bit over 2 seconds. Trap speeds are also disapointing at 113-115. While I am wishing for those extra HP I think I'm missing from Kleemann's claims, I know that traction is probably the bigger issue.

When the proper timing presented itself, I sent the car back down to Chris Chapas at C2 Designs in Tampa, FL. He found a bad seal/gasket/or something like that on the headers and fixed it. He also sent the ECU back to Kleemann in Colorado. Additionally, he installed the Kleemann LSD and ordered a set of BF drag radials on OEM rims to be changed at the track.

Kleemann sent the ECU back with another program on it. They seem to use 2 different programs for the E55 and opted to try the other one. The car was then re-dyno'ed on the same dyno and returned 470 hp and 506 torque. This is a 10 hp increase and a 7 ft/lbs torque decrease from the prior Kleemann ECU program. That's about 20 hp and 14 ft/lbs shy of Kleemann's marketing claims. I'm sure there is some margin of error for environmental conditions in the dyno shop, fan speed, dynos, and performance differences between stock cars of the same make & model. What the acceptable error would be is something I don't know.

I picked up the car last night in Tampa so I could run it today in Valdosta, GA. I switched out the rear tires for the drag radials once I got to the track. The compound on those tires are amazing. They are VERY tacky and almost feel like an eraser, and that's while they are cold. After a 10 second burnout in dyno mode, it runs a 12.07 with a 1.843 60 ft at 116.17 mph. The launch was a whole new world with the drag radials and the LSD. Not a bit of wheel spin. Trap speed was a bit higher but time was still slow.

Now here is where I hit a problem, I could not get out of dyno mode. I tried reversing the same method by which I got into dyno mode, left the car off for quite a while, took the keys out, etc. Because of this, I wasn't ever able to run the car with ESP on or even with it off and the backup traction control being active. The good news is that I wasn't EVER able to get the car to lose traction on the start.

I started reving at 1000 rpm's before launching and went up from there for each run. I could not rev beyond 2000 rpm's without the car pushing over the starting line. I need more practice on this part.

While I raised the hood after every run, I only used ice on the engine for the last two runs. After using ice, reving to 2000 rpm's, and flooring it in dyno mode just a split second after launching, I got an 11.975 with a 1.785 60 ft at 116.3 mph. With the same method, I then ran a 11.856 with a 1.780 60 ft at 117.9 mph. Weather was in the mid 60's all day.

While I'd like it more in the mid to low 11's after having spent about $12,000 on the Kleemann Stage 2, BF drag radials, and the Kleemann LSD, 11.85 ain't all bad. With more launching practice, I think I can get it down closer to 11.6 or better.

In summation, my times improved from 12.33 to 11.85, a .48 time reduction. With more practice, that improvement could be as much as .75 seconds. If that's worth $12,000 to you then I would recommend you look at the Kleemann products and if you're in or around Florida, I highly recommend Chris Chapas at C2 Designs.

SGC

Glad to hear that they got the bugs worked out for you.


Great run.

Marcus Frost

Derek,

You are not going to get the real results you are looking for, nor is ANY W211 E55 owner, until you or they address the cooling problem inherent with the M113 Komressor engine. You barely picked up any mph (the realworld indicator of hp) from stock until now, and it's not because you haven't increased potential power, but it's that the M113K is simply not capable of dealing with it in an efficient manner. Adding boost means adding heat, something even stock the M113 is not dealing well with at all.

I really strongly recommend everyone wait for cooling system upgrades before going and upping the boost on these cars. I've posted about this before and now that more and more people are going with pulley upgrades without being real satisfied, I think it's giving my theory some substantial real-world proof.

Kleeman actually has a cooling system upgrade for this car that I read about recently. I haven't personally talked to them about it yet but I've read some technical information on it and it definitely should be the #1 major upgrade on every E55 owner's list. Evosport is also working on this and I'm going to be keeping my eye on them as well.

I've worked with some very high horspower forced induction engines and let me tell you, heat is arguably the #1 enemy of any forced induction engine. If you are not properly dealing with it, increasing it (as you are doing when upping the boost) is going to get you two things for sure - disappointing results and decreased consistency, and many possible things, including possible engine damage, and reduced longevity and reliability.

-m

00SVTdubs

you hit it on the head... it is the same way with my cobra. Im no expert on the E55 but I do have experience with supercharged cars and heat is the number one killer. Im not sure if $12000 is worth .5 at the track either. I spent 70 on a pulley and 300 for a chip and I went down 1 full second in the cobra but I understand Im comparing apples to oranges. Ive been doing a lot of research on the E55 and it seems like Evosport is the way to go. I have a good friend with one and he swears by it. From the intercooler to the blower spacer... all evosport. His car runs like a rapped ape

DerekFSU

What does he have and what is it running?

vrus

I second what Marcus is saying.. There is no real point in raising the boost when the stock boost levels are already causing power drops when the car heats up. Matters only become worse with higher boost settings.

I have been waiting on the sidelines for the cooling system upgrades before I do anything with ECU and pullies.

But, CONGRATS on an awesome run!! 11.85 for a 4000 pound 4-door family sedan is a great achievement!!! I can see a low 11second car there.

DerekFSU

Chris at C2 mentioned some type of CO2 cooling system that sprays on the engine to cool it down. Ever heard of it? What are our cooling options with the E55?

BenzoAMGpower

it sprays on teh intercooler!!!

zdkdeeier493

I agree wholeheartedly. If you hear any news about any legitimate intercooler upgrades, please, PLEASE, PM me. Also, does anyone know what happened with those spacers that Evosport was supposed to come out with?

Boost&Cubes

I'm no expert, but the theory that improving cooling capacity and increasing
traction via LSD prior to adding power via pulley and ECU upgrades makes sense to me.
I've often wondered why in stock form the C32 engine runs 16 lb of boost whereas the 55K engines run only 11.6 lb of boost.
As an E55 owner, I feel shortchanged.
Running into heat dissipation issues could explain why AMG cut back the boost on 55K motors.

In the interest of improving cooling capacity, has anyone investigated the following product from Evans cooling ?

http://www.evanscooling.com/index2.html

I read about this on the (now defunct) Volvo Turbobricks forum.
Could we use this product in both the liquid intercooler and the radiator of our
55K engines ? :o

neoprufrok

Great post and great info. I apologize if I missed this earlier, but at the dyno that you were at - did they have a full blown fan system capable of simulating speeds at 150mph? I ask because very few dyno's have that capability and heat soak as mentioned will cause a large drop in hp and tq. Sorry again, if you've mentioned this.

And BTW 11.85 is an amazing thing for a 4 door sedan.

DerekFSU

Thanks Neo. The tuner mentioned that fan was a problem like most of them are so I'd venture to say it was not pushing out 150 mph winds.

saber

Great times. The key is making (the power) it consistently and that is were the cooling problem arises. To address the problem, I went the CO2 route see my previous post on kleemann mods. For the track the CO2 works very well in the intake tubes combined with the intercooler spray. The limitation of course is the need to refill the bottle every once in a while. I will add the cooling mods when they become available but it is important to remember that these kits (bigger radiators, larger pumps, etc.) will only work so well. To completely address or cure the problem requires moving the actual intercooler from under the supercharger to the top of the engine. Renetech has done this modification to a select number of cars but it is extremely expensive. 11.85 consistently is a great goal

Kens-E55

High 11's is very good for this car - The post concerning heat build-up is 100% correct

I have 1/4 mile & 1/2 mile strips out where I live in Palm Beach Gardens(Caloosa) and I've done actual testing of this

Test 1 - I go from standstill to 1/2 mi and check my trap speed and consistent to be between 138-140 on the speedo. Ive done this many different times in the last 2 months and always result in the same trap speed.
I'm consistent @115-116 when passing the 1/4 strip mark.


Now test 2: Pass 1/4 mile strip "cruising @ 115" and the engine running cool
when I hit the strip I proceed to "HIT IT"!!
I will consistently hit the next strip(1/2 mi) @ 145-146..................... a 6 mph difference!!.........I attribute all of this to the cooling capacity.

My .02 cents says if we get a cooler running, more efficient way to keep the intake temps down- everything else will result in rediculously fast times and trap speeds.

Renntech-Kleemann-Evosport-Brabus - There is a market for this upgrade--Make it happen!!

Derek - Be patient - your mods are good - better cooling and my money says an 11.5 - 11.7 in low to mid 120s easy!!!

Kudos to the mods

00SVTdubs

I will try to get him to chime in here. David posts on here.

Lucas

Larger capasity pump will come from Kleemann in January 05.

Vadim @ evosport

Derek: Great numbers. MPH seems a bit low, as stock cars run very 115-116 mph. If I can make a suggestion, aquire an OBDII scanner tool and record your 1/4 mile pass. See how high the Air Charge Temperature goes. I would think you your MPH should be in low 120s.


Ken, our EVOIII Power Package will come with higher capacity intercooler fluid pump and an additional heat exhanger for intercooler.

EVOIII is ready for production, we are awaiting several small pieces to come to us and final dyno test.

EVOIV will relocate the intercooler from under the kompressor and split the core to mount above each cylinder bank. This is what McLaren did on SLR. We are just in final prototyping, I would expect it in spring of 2005.

Kens-E55

Vadim:
Appreciate the update - Any prelim "hopeful" specs on the stage 4 relocating the intercoolers?

I live in Palm Bch Gardens Fla- To look @ your stage 3 who would you recommend for install and what would my realistic $ and perf #'s be?
I also want to change to a 3.06 LSD to further improve 1/4 mile times and trap speed. With your stage 3 and 3.06 LSD and GOOD TRACTION-Any way you feel this would be in Mid 11's @ 125??

That would be a Serious Ride!!

Thanks,
Ken

cte430

Boy, some of this makes me wonder if I should rip out my Renntech ECU and pulley

Vadim @ evosport

Ken, my pleasure.

At this time I do not have a good picture of the set-up. Mainly it consists of two high-effiency cores mounted above each bank. I will post pictures as soon as I can.

As far installer, we do have a shop in FL that does installs on our products. I will have Simon post his info later.

EVOIII, 3.06 and LSD should be able to get you into mid11s at mid 120s.

That would definitely be a serious ride.

Marcus Frost

Before I post again I want to link to my other thread, for those that missed it. I'll rehash some of the stuff I said here.

https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/81071-some-thoughts-upgrading-w211-horsepower-wise.html

I'm glad to see people are starting to understand and accept the proper way we need to go about modifying these cars. For those of you waiting, continue to do so. Mark my word, these cars have yet to show their real mean sides. With a nice full upgrade package, emphasizing proper heat disappation, these cars are going to insane. Tons of power, and excellent consistency. Any production sports car under $250k better look out on the highways.

AMG knew the M113 ran hot, it's apparent in their fuel map. A 10.5 to 1 air/fuel ratio in the upper RPM isn't a mistake or due to the lack of good tuning, it's because a rich air/fuel ratio runs cooler than a lean one. In order to address the heat problem, AMG ran the mixture rich up top to use it as a "bandaid" way of cooling the cylinders. This is TERRIBLE for horsepower and torque, but one of the few ways you can cool the block without tacking on a better cooling system. It's very surprising to me they would do this, but they had to have a reason for doing it. What that is, we may never know. Once you provide a cooling system capable of dealing with the engine's heat, you can also start leaning out the air/fuel ratio and significantly improve horsepower and torque.

In my previous post, I made a rough estimate. Our cars make a peak 450 torque to the wheels, roughly. We all know horsepower is a function of torque and rpm. Well, the goal for any engineer building an "all around" performance vehicle is to bring the torque on as early as possible and keep it relatively the same until you reach redline. Many performance cars on the market today, normally aspirated or supercharged, do this. Ours don't even come close. By the time we hit redline, we have LOST 100-125 torque at the wheels in just 1 gear. I don't think you guys understand how absolutely pathetic this is, but maybe this will make you understand. If we were able to stay within 25 torque at the rear wheels from our peak (which is totally possible, and actually being conservative) at 425 rear wheel torque at redline, 6500rpm, our cars - at stock boost - would make 525rwhp - approximately 625hp at the crank, simply by flattening out the torque curve. This is probably not possible with just a cooling system upgrade, but with a cooling system upgrade, headers, and some software tuning to make use of the cooling system, I have no question we can get to that level - and possibly even further.

With that said, these EVOIII and EVOIV should, in my mind, be EVOI and EVOII, with the pulley/chip/header upgrade coming after those. Even at the stock level a dramatic cooling upgrade would reap extremely positive results on the M113. I am really looking forward to seeing the results from evosport, and have to say I am very grateful we have a committed tuner stateside who's as enthusiastic for developing new products as we are for buying them

-m

Finnish C32

Marcus, you are absolutely Right with evosport stages. cooling is the key to power with these motors.

Thanks,
Ville

rguy

You guys might want to talk to Kleemann about upgrading your intercooler. Kleemann makes an extremely efficient intercooler and water coolant pump for that matter. You might find they can retrofit in colorado springs.

Anyway, the other thing that may or may not help (not positive because the math is fuzzy), but you might be able to help matters by installing one of RENNtech's NACA ducted hoods. Essentially there are beautiful scoops taken out of the hood that vent the engine compartment and create a much higher flow of cool air while driving. This will certainly make the engine bay cooler, but I am not sure what the real culprit is. I know that I have seen those E55 headers glowing red hot as if a blacksmith was working on them, but maybe you can have them removed and jet-hot ceramic coated. This should help at least air intake efficiency.

The other thing you can do is swap out your radiator. There are definitely more efficient radiators on the market like Fluidyne or similar, but you would have to do a custom fabrication to get it to fit.

Viper owners went through a lot of the same problems you guys are going through and they didn't even have a blower to spice things up. These are just a few of the tricks they have found successful in lowering engine temperatures and preventing heat soak.

I hope this helps and isn't overly obvious.

Beowulf

Great advice. Had my original car not been damaged, I would likely have pulled the trigger on either a Renntech, Kleemann, or Evosport pulley & ECU upgrade. With the replacement car's delivery sometime in the next few weeks, I'm content to wait for further developments that address the cooling issue.

Congrats to DerekFSU for getting into the 11's, but it's evident there's much more to be had once the motor's real potential is tapped.

DerekFSU

With 470 hp and 506 ft/lbs to the wheels, I'm hoping so.