M6 runs 10.3 on stock turbos
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,841
Likes: 202
From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
hmm so that means they are better-designed cars???
My point is this is what you bought, this is what it came with, make the best of it or switch. No sense in *****ing about something (hardware related) that at this point you cannot change for that much better.
Software on the other hand I believe could be much much better (Speedriven! any chances of a standalone on this platform? I will try it just to see how it does).
My point is this is what you bought, this is what it came with, make the best of it or switch. No sense in *****ing about something (hardware related) that at this point you cannot change for that much better.
Software on the other hand I believe could be much much better (Speedriven! any chances of a standalone on this platform? I will try it just to see how it does).
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 239
E63
The power curve of the M157s remind me of 408 and 427 carbed engines from old. Hell our peak HP is around 5000-5300rpm. This engine is a drag racer's wet dream. We just cannot use it that way due to limiters
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 959
Likes: 36
From: Maryland
W212 E63 AMG S Model
I think with just a tune these cars can run 10s... how? By figuring out how to get the car to launch better through TCU tuning.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,841
Likes: 202
From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
some of our cars already do run in 10's with tune... forget about ET's for a moment... look at trap... the e63 on stock turbos that ran 10.85 was at 129 mph... that bmw you posted trapped 137 on stock turbos.... tcu tuning isnt gona increase our traps by +8 mph
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 239
E63
Definitely not 8mph, not even close to that. The whole tune does not net 8mph usually by itself.
But obviously to ignore the huge HP disparity (like I was saying) would be to also ignore the trap speed. We won't get there with HP, but the huge torque advantage could mean we can get across the finish line sooner (and subsequently lose badly in the half mile or longer)
But obviously to ignore the huge HP disparity (like I was saying) would be to also ignore the trap speed. We won't get there with HP, but the huge torque advantage could mean we can get across the finish line sooner (and subsequently lose badly in the half mile or longer)
Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 163
Likes: 8
2011 E63 AMG
Quote from TSM @ GTR forum:
Some people don't know this, however, a bigger turbo is actually safer on factory components when not turned up than a small turbo turned up. Reason being you are not having to use excess boost and thereby torque to make horsepower up top.
Some people don't know this, however, a bigger turbo is actually safer on factory components when not turned up than a small turbo turned up. Reason being you are not having to use excess boost and thereby torque to make horsepower up top.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,649
Likes: 207
'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
So 20lbs of boost from a small turbo is harder on the motor than 20lbs of boost from a bigger turbo? Unless it's a backpressure thing I'm missing something...
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,895
Likes: 53
From: Maryland
'14 E63S & '14 Audi SQ5
I think that statement was made within the context of a comparison of a larger turbo that can make the same power while generating less boost (operating efficiently) than a smaller turbo. The smaller turbo would generate more heat to keep up, which is physically more taxing on the turbo itself and on the intercooling system. Obviously if you are matching the boost of the smaller turbos, it will have an even greater downside from heat concerns.
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,841
Likes: 202
From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
^ correct as the two turbos (smaller vs bigger) are NOT cramming the same AMOUNT of air into the engine simply b/c they're running at the same PSI. The amount of air (which they're pushing into the engine) is just pressurized to the same degree (same boost psi) , although the AMOUNT of air does differ.
so if you have a bigger turbo, you can turn down the boost but still get the same amount if air into the engine.
and as mentioned above by chiro, back pressure comes into play as the back pressure increases, the engine must work harder to pump the gases out of the cylinder against the higher pressure.... a smaller turbo with smaller hot side will have more back pressure than a bigger turbo with bigger hot side in general.. so the smaller turbo is going to make your engine work harder to overcome that back pressure
that's what makes VGT turbos so cool is that they can vary exhaust back pressure and act like a small turbo at low rpms for quick spool up and then act like a big turbo at high rpm as they effectively can change their a/r ratio on the fly with the VGT actuator
so if you have a bigger turbo, you can turn down the boost but still get the same amount if air into the engine.
and as mentioned above by chiro, back pressure comes into play as the back pressure increases, the engine must work harder to pump the gases out of the cylinder against the higher pressure.... a smaller turbo with smaller hot side will have more back pressure than a bigger turbo with bigger hot side in general.. so the smaller turbo is going to make your engine work harder to overcome that back pressure
that's what makes VGT turbos so cool is that they can vary exhaust back pressure and act like a small turbo at low rpms for quick spool up and then act like a big turbo at high rpm as they effectively can change their a/r ratio on the fly with the VGT actuator
Last edited by gaspam; Nov 7, 2016 at 07:57 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,841
Likes: 202
From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
i think what the original poster was meaning that it makes the engine work harder which is more wear and tear so shortened life... to what extent it shortens the life is a different story... I could say my driving style very much shortens the life of all cars i've ever owned 
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,882
Likes: 1,212
From: In my garage
E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
This makes no sense at all. HP = (torque x RPM) /5252 Not really sure what they are saying.
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 959
Likes: 36
From: Maryland
W212 E63 AMG S Model
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 773
Likes: 44
C300
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,841
Likes: 202
From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
if you are talking about just box tune only now on pump gas, then bmw M5/M6 are running same or slower than us
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 959
Likes: 36
From: Maryland
W212 E63 AMG S Model
We're going besides the point now... the point of this thread is to say that hardware isn't always and only the solution to going faster. Why can't these companies like AMS, Renntech, and Weistec have the same or close to the same tuning capabilities as the companies overseas? Why is there no AMS Alpha 9 car running low 10s or Weistec car running low 10s? Well, it's because people are throwing their wallets at them without them providing any real numbers to justify the mods. Why is it that Fairbird can run 10.9 on just a tune and AMS runs 10.7 with upgraded turbos? If you can explain that to me, then you can identify the message of this thread.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,841
Likes: 202
From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
I dont know why you are so focused on ET's unless you are building a dragstrip car... that AMS 10.7 upgraded turbo run was at 135 mph.... tune AMS tuned stock turbo 10.85 was at 129.... that means on the street the turbo upgrade is way faster if you are cruising along the highway and mash the pedal
and I still dont know who is throwing their wallets at AMS/renntech/Weistec for turbo upgrades as no one on this forum has one of those kits except fairbird and he had the W3 kit and its only $8K, not 25K..... asides from him, everyone else has $2-$3K tunes and maybe a few with downpipes (i got mine for $1200)
the market has spoken, no one is buying the expensive turbo kits and no tuner is interested in making cheap kits.. we are at equilibrium on the supply/demand curve I keep telling them you and me will buy a $5K kit as soon as they make it but they havent replied
and I still dont know who is throwing their wallets at AMS/renntech/Weistec for turbo upgrades as no one on this forum has one of those kits except fairbird and he had the W3 kit and its only $8K, not 25K..... asides from him, everyone else has $2-$3K tunes and maybe a few with downpipes (i got mine for $1200)
the market has spoken, no one is buying the expensive turbo kits and no tuner is interested in making cheap kits.. we are at equilibrium on the supply/demand curve
I keep telling them you and me will buy a $5K kit as soon as they make it but they havent replied
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 959
Likes: 36
From: Maryland
W212 E63 AMG S Model
I dont know why you are so focused on ET's unless you are building a dragstrip car... that AMS 10.7 upgraded turbo run was at 135 mph.... tune AMS tuned stock turbo 10.85 was at 129.... that means on the street the turbo upgrade is way faster if you are cruising along the highway and mash the pedal
and I still dont know who is throwing their wallets at AMS/renntech/Weistec for turbo upgrades as no one on this forum has one of those kits except fairbird and he had the W3 kit and its only $8K, not 25K..... asides from him, everyone else has $2-$3K tunes and maybe a few with downpipes (i got mine for $1200)
the market has spoken, no one is buying the expensive turbo kits and no tuner is interested in making cheap kits.. we are at equilibrium on the supply/demand curve I keep telling them you and me will buy a $5K kit as soon as they make it but they havent replied
and I still dont know who is throwing their wallets at AMS/renntech/Weistec for turbo upgrades as no one on this forum has one of those kits except fairbird and he had the W3 kit and its only $8K, not 25K..... asides from him, everyone else has $2-$3K tunes and maybe a few with downpipes (i got mine for $1200)
the market has spoken, no one is buying the expensive turbo kits and no tuner is interested in making cheap kits.. we are at equilibrium on the supply/demand curve
I keep telling them you and me will buy a $5K kit as soon as they make it but they havent replied Fairbird is not the only person that has bought an upgraded turbo setup. Check this forum... definitely a handful of people and there are even more that aren't on this forum (if you follow any of the Instagram AMG guys).
All I'm saying is I'm willing to shell out the $10k for an upgraded turbo setup... but show me some improvements in tuning where the car can actually take full advantage of the hardware instead of overcompensating hardware for a lack of software development.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,841
Likes: 202
From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
Why do I care about ET? Because we all know that our cars are very slow out of the hole. Yes, you can trap a very high MPH, but in that case, why aren't you driving a single turbo Supra? Those cars run 12s but trap 140+.
Fairbird is not the only person that has bought an upgraded turbo setup. Check this forum... definitely a handful of people and there are even more that aren't on this forum (if you follow any of the Instagram AMG guys).
All I'm saying is I'm willing to shell out the $10k for an upgraded turbo setup... but show me some improvements in tuning where the car can actually take full advantage of the hardware instead of overcompensating hardware for a lack of software development.
Fairbird is not the only person that has bought an upgraded turbo setup. Check this forum... definitely a handful of people and there are even more that aren't on this forum (if you follow any of the Instagram AMG guys).
All I'm saying is I'm willing to shell out the $10k for an upgraded turbo setup... but show me some improvements in tuning where the car can actually take full advantage of the hardware instead of overcompensating hardware for a lack of software development.
Last edited by gaspam; Nov 8, 2016 at 02:53 PM.
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 305
Likes: 30
2014 CLS63 S
The M6 is fast and on the stock turbos is awesome. The thing I've noticed is this community (NOT EVERYONE) is all about DYNO #s. MPH in the 1/4 is also a DYNO number but a much more respected/accurate one. It takes your ENTIRE setup to get off that line, propel down the strip efficiently using every bit of power to get to the finish line. That being said, I don’t think people actually make sure their car is running 100% even in stock form before they start modding. Just because that engine light isn’t on and you made whatever number sounds par on the dyno doesn’t mean the car is at its full potential. I think there's more potential than running 10.9 on stock turbos in our cars so the 10.3 in the BMW isn’t surprising. He has just maximized his efficiency on the current setup! I refuse to believe that only these large companies have access to these kryptonite like devises to tune this platform. I refuse to pay for a $2000 tune that isnt even dyno/street tuned to my car. That is ridiculous. Even these Turbo setups people are having to mail ECUs across the damn country (sometimes the world) to get a tiny revision and even then may not be right since they physically never see the car. Someone has to have hacked these old bosch computers by now but big name companies dont want you to know or they will shoot down anyone that claims they have done it. Torque management takes a ton out of a car and there is so many ways of doing it through ECU/TCU. Until theres a decent way to crack these computers to modify that for each individual setup, throwing more power/money at this platform even then will only get you so far.
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 959
Likes: 36
From: Maryland
W212 E63 AMG S Model
et problems are from the tcu... tuners havent really cracked it over here... probably because they know you need to build your tranny up if you are going to remove the tcu limiters unless you want below to happen (and thats actually a built up trans) and most people arent willing to do a tranny build due to cost so tuners havent worked on tcu solutions here in usa.... MCT and its limiters are you're limitation on ETs on m157
https://youtu.be/7oeZj114r14
https://youtu.be/zZdisPkaXFc
https://youtu.be/7oeZj114r14
https://youtu.be/zZdisPkaXFc
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,895
Likes: 53
From: Maryland
'14 E63S & '14 Audi SQ5
We're going besides the point now... the point of this thread is to say that hardware isn't always and only the solution to going faster. Why can't these companies like AMS, Renntech, and Weistec have the same or close to the same tuning capabilities as the companies overseas? Why is there no AMS Alpha 9 car running low 10s or Weistec car running low 10s? Well, it's because people are throwing their wallets at them without them providing any real numbers to justify the mods. Why is it that Fairbird can run 10.9 on just a tune and AMS runs 10.7 with upgraded turbos? If you can explain that to me, then you can identify the message of this thread.
The tuners would gladly take people's money and build the platform if there was enough demand/$ for the products/tuning. The cars performing overseas seem to have the "money no object" type budgets. What really helped the S63TU BMW platform was the encryption that essentially forced people to go for the piggyback tuning solution. As more and more people used the Burger JB's (super cheap and I had one on my F10 M5), Burger gained a very big market share of the tuned S63TU market and he devoted more time and resources to it with meth kits and really turning up the boost since this would bring him more $'s. You don't have that type of dominance in the tuning market for the M157 and the current tuners don't see a big $ upside to maximizing the performance of this platform.
The AMS turbo upgrade car with the 135 mph looks to be run in July, not the ideal time of year to run great times. You have to wonder how much that trap speed would pop up if it was run on the East Coast on a negative DA day. I think that is partly why the tune/DP/meth E63 S ran such a strong trap speed at 133mph. There just are not enough turbo upgraded cars running in ideal conditions to make a direct comparison.
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 305
Likes: 30
2014 CLS63 S
Well said!!
Was looking at the trans and gear ratios in comparison to that M6 and that's a large factor for the 60' as well. Their final drive is a 3.15 ours (or mine cls63s) is 2.65. Their 1st gear is 4.81 to our 4.37. That's kind of a big deal lol after first gear ratio wise gets comparable but they still have the 3.15 final gear to be quicker out of the hole.
Was looking at the trans and gear ratios in comparison to that M6 and that's a large factor for the 60' as well. Their final drive is a 3.15 ours (or mine cls63s) is 2.65. Their 1st gear is 4.81 to our 4.37. That's kind of a big deal lol after first gear ratio wise gets comparable but they still have the 3.15 final gear to be quicker out of the hole.
