efiftyfizzle

Lets keep letting the tuning companies tell us that paying $25k for turbo kits is the only way to go faster (with no proven results):

https://instagram.com/p/BMb1pIyhN__/

gaspam

i dont know who has paid 25K for a turbo kit over here? ... most i have seen someone pay for kit alone is $11,999 for AMS kit which traps 135 mph.... this M6 trapped 134 mph for about $8,000 in upgrades, so meh

kinda disappointing that this M6 makes 773 whp/ 857wtrq weights 150 lbs less and only trapped 134mph when AMS kits makes about 100whp less and traps 1 mph more.... and I'm not really impressed with the AMS results to begin with otherwise i would of bought the kit

still waiting on updated results from wesitec W4 or pureturbos kit (think eurocharged is doing the tuning), but if results arent great then i will just save the cash from turbo upgrade and put towards 991.2 I'm thinking about getting into

emericr

$8K to run 10.3 on stock turbos. I am all in. Is there an MB tuner that can do this?

chiromikey

+1

efiftyfizzle

isnt the weistec w4 kit around $25k? Yes it's probably a lot more than just a turbo upgrade, but I doubt it will produce results like this. Go look at fairbird... he's spent a ton of money on his car but no real numbers yet. Forget about the horsepower numbers, and focus on 1/4 mile and trap speed. Yes the m6 traps 1mph less but it runs a much quicker 1/4 mile with much less mods and 2/3 of the money. That doesn't sound like a deal to you?

TMC M5

http://www.dragtimes.com/Mercedes-Be...lip-28760.html

This was just posted. Not quite a 10.3 but the trap is up there with which look like stock turbos.

UrBusted

That car has 773whp which I guess is at least 850hp, similar to the highest power currently available from Weistec, Brabus e.t.c. I can think only GAD has similar times, with turbo kits and at a higher cost :

efiftyfizzle

10.6 @ 133 is good for just downpipes and meth. That's better than AMS upgraded turbo car... I believe that was 10.7 with similar trap.

Fairbird

I trapped 135 with w3 kit , one day ...

gaspam

yeah sounds like a deal if you like bmw's ... but i mean if we are talking about deals, on different cars than the ones we drive, then i had a junkie 88 mustang that ran in the 8's for about 4 times cheaper than the cost of a stock BMW M6 even if you want to stay "german luxury" there are audi TT's running in the 9's and trapping 150s for 1/2 the cost of M6 ... but again different cars

i would love to get in the 9's for cheap on a MB but just isnt going to happen with a off the shelf bolt on cheap kit... not a big enough market ... i would also like to get a lambo huracan for under 100K and UGR huracan turbo kit for under 50K, but market wont support that price either


and there are tuners out there getting great times out of M157's , they're just not US tuners.... bmw/Audi has always had a bigger tuner market in the US than MB... you want to push the envelope on M157 then look outside of US to PP-performance, GAD, Poseidon, etc

Fairbird

the car was running great , fast as hell , the problem is quality of the turbos . if they done right the car will trap 134-135 no problem on pump gas

efiftyfizzle

You can't compare an 88 Mustang to an E63 or an M6, but you can compare an E63 to an M5/M6. I'm sure when we were all buying these cars, we were evaluating the other german competitors. I still prefer my E63 hands down to an M5 or M6, but I'm sick of the "you need to spend $20k to go faster with these cars"... only to find out that it's not reliable and it's not proven.

efiftyfizzle

Point proven. The guy spent a ton of money, broke a ton of parts, and his car doesn't even run right. What he means by "done right" is tuning. The reason that M6 is quick and doesn't need upgraded turbos is the tuning is there. We need to push the tuners to figure out ways to tune these cars better instead of having them convince us to upgrade hardware that they cannot properly tune for anyways.

Fairbird

who is the guy ? what you mean by ton of parts ? you can try to convince them as much as you want , the hardware isn't capable of doing what you want

efiftyfizzle

I was talking about you... haven't you gone through a couple sets of turbos..? How much faster is your car in the 1/4 mile with upgraded turbos vs the bolt ons and tune you had.

gaspam

the difference is s63tu stock turbos are bigger and can be pushed to close to 30psi before getting out of efficiency range, while M157 turbos are smaller and can only be pushed to 19psi before being maxed out (which is what currrent tunes do), so yes you need new hardware (turbos) if you want to do what S63tu's do on stock turbos...

blame MB on giving us tiny turbos under the engine instead of bigger turbos in the valley of the engine like BMW did

Fairbird

bolt ons 10.9 at 40 degree weather , turbos 10.7 at 90F , I didn't break anything but 2 turbos failed , the results were great . 1/8 mile 7.2 bolt ons 6.85 turbos , similar weather pump gas

efiftyfizzle

That's understandable and I know that, but fine, upgrade the turbos on our cars and run 30psi... wait, we can't.. tuning is the problem... AGAIN.

Let's look at real numbers. That E63 that was posted earlier in this thread on dragtimes ran a 10.6 at 133mph. Let's see some numbers for some of the turbo upgrades we have available (not the GAD cars because they are way beyond just a turbo upgrade). They are pretty much the same thing. How come? You're upgrading turbos and you're yielding about the same results as a stock turbo car?

Fairbird

IG link race gas prepped truck , slicks , money spent to get this result similar

gaspam

PP-Performance (not GAD) ... just a turbo upgrade and exhaust 10.13 @ 140 mph

you are also forgetting that s63tu turbos are twin scroll, ours are not so even if we run the same boost the BMW turbos are going to put out about 20% more HP... why you think new e63 is coming with topmount twin scroll turbos ?

efiftyfizzle

Ok, this is good... we're going down the right path.

1) How do you know it's only a turbo upgrade?
2) How is this different than what the tuning companies here in the U.S. offer? They can all buy the turbos and slap them in, but there's some key element missing, and that's tuning.

My point here is, let's stop supporting and buying into these products that are not proven. Yes, we all get hyped when a new set of turbos (or turbine wheel upgrade) is posted here, but let's all just wait and let the companies do their R&D and show us what their mods do (with their tuning). I hate to keep using this example, but with the GT-R it was simple. You buy certain kits, you run certain times. You know what you're getting into. I feel like with our cars, you really don't know what you're getting into and the excuse is always (well, limited production)... that doesn't cut it for me.

cocobeex

is turbo upgrade a good thing to do ?
I have seen them fail more than success...

Anyone here got it done right ?

kponti

I believe that is what efiftyfizzle is getting at. Tuning is a huge block on this platform. If all you do is dyno runs and hwy races (which most of us here do not use as the main measure of the car's capabilities), then sure the M157s are also up there. If not, well then this platform is lacking in comparison to its direct competitors.

Yes having a turbo that is too small is a handicap for this car, just as not having a way to bypass the torque limitations. Other platforms having twin scrolls cannot be looked at as having some form of undue advantage cos they also have much smaller displacements. It is what it is.
Aftermarket turbos on M157s should be able to close the gap but alas they are not (in the time being).

Maybe after tuning is fixed, we will not need larger turbos to do what BMW does. We might be able to do it with a lot less RWHP (but with boatload of torque)

gaspam

tuned, on stock turbos for both MB vs bmw, BMW has larger effective displacement ((boost+ atm)/atm)x displacement) of 13.38L vs 12.6L for MB assuming turbos are same efficiency, which we know they are not and BMW has the advantage there as twin scroll being about 20% more effective, so in reality BMW has effective displacement of about 16.05L vs MB 12.6L ... basically BMW has engine/turbo combo that is about 27% bigger in effective displacement than ours

for us to be on par with them we need to be able to run about 28.25 lbs of boost when they are running 30 psi

kponti

hmm so that means they are better-designed cars???
My point is this is what you bought, this is what it came with, make the best of it or switch. No sense in *****ing about something (hardware related) that at this point you cannot change for that much better.
Software on the other hand I believe could be much much better (Speedriven! any chances of a standalone on this platform? I will try it just to see how it does).