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I think some of it has to mainly do with the two things: 1. Level of commitment from the tuner/consumer and 2. Ideal opportunity to maximize 1/4 mile performance.
The tuners would gladly take people's money and build the platform if there was enough demand/$ for the products/tuning. The cars performing overseas seem to have the "money no object" type budgets. What really helped the S63TU BMW platform was the encryption that essentially forced people to go for the piggyback tuning solution. As more and more people used the Burger JB's (super cheap and I had one on my F10 M5), Burger gained a very big market share of the tuned S63TU market and he devoted more time and resources to it with meth kits and really turning up the boost since this would bring him more $'s. You don't have that type of dominance in the tuning market for the M157 and the current tuners don't see a big $ upside to maximizing the performance of this platform.
The AMS turbo upgrade car with the 135 mph looks to be run in July, not the ideal time of year to run great times. You have to wonder how much that trap speed would pop up if it was run on the East Coast on a negative DA day. I think that is partly why the tune/DP/meth E63 S ran such a strong trap speed at 133mph. There just are not enough turbo upgraded cars running in ideal conditions to make a direct comparison.
That's fair... so do you think a piggyback solution would benefit our platform? We have some encryption problems as well in our tuning (TCU).
Also, the AMS car that trapped 135 was also the pre-facelift (RWD) model... we've already seen that they are a bit quicker from a roll than our AWD models. I haven't seen any 1/4 mile runs of their upgraded turbos on the AWD model.
Of course, TCU tuning is still tuning. There's a difference in removing torque limiters and raising torque limiters. I'm sure the tuners could play with the numbers a little bit if they figure out how to get in there and raise them slightly to let us run better than a 1.7 60'.
I played with numbers a little , ended up building transmission and weistec didi a good job there so now I can play even more , 0–60 2.8 all day .
I played with numbers a little , ended up building transmission and weistec didi a good job there so now I can play even more , 0–60 2.8 all day . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNM0era4GUc
wow that's quick! What was that delay between 2nd and 3rd shift?
wow that's quick! What was that delay between 2nd and 3rd shift?
I'm at 4500 D/A btw , trans adaptation , transmission sensing last 40 shift point , after breaking in first time I floored it , so tranny was like what's going on . it went away after few pulls
That's fair... so do you think a piggyback solution would benefit our platform? We have some encryption problems as well in our tuning (TCU).
Also, the AMS car that trapped 135 was also the pre-facelift (RWD) model... we've already seen that they are a bit quicker from a roll than our AWD models. I haven't seen any 1/4 mile runs of their upgraded turbos on the AWD model.
Maybe a piggyback would help consolidate the market and allow a tuner like Burger to invest in the platform. The fact that the JB is so cheap allowed so many people to rationalize it as 'why not give it a try for less than $500 and take it off if it doesn't work'. Most people saw it worked and started adding on the additional functions as Burger started getting more and more requests.
The other great thing was no software residue in the ECU for people who were concerned about indiscriminate flagging of tunes.
Instead MB tuners try to cash in on $3K ECU tunes that leave physical alterations to the ECU. Most owners don't want to deal with the overzealous/ignorant dealers over warranty issues that have no connection to the tune. it has limited the population of people getting tunes, lessening the overall demand (and potential $'s for the tuner...so they raise the price of the tunes to capture what they can).
Maybe a piggyback would help consolidate the market and allow a tuner like Burger to invest in the platform. The fact that the JB is so cheap allowed so many people to rationalize it as 'why not give it a try for less than $500 and take it off if it doesn't work'. Most people saw it worked and started adding on the additional functions as Burger started getting more and more requests.
The other great thing was no software residue in the ECU for people who were concerned about indiscriminate flagging of tunes.
Instead MB tuners try to cash in on $3K ECU tunes that leave physical alterations to the ECU. Most owners don't want to deal with the overzealous/ignorant dealers over warranty issues that have no connection to the tune. it has limited the population of people getting tunes, lessening the overall demand (and potential $'s for the tuner...so they raise the price of the tunes to capture what they can).
Burger tunes work to those extremes cos they are usually in tandem with ECU flash tunes like we have
That's understandable and I know that, but fine, upgrade the turbos on our cars and run 30psi... wait, we can't.. tuning is the problem... AGAIN.
Let's look at real numbers. That E63 that was posted earlier in this thread on dragtimes ran a 10.6 at 133mph. Let's see some numbers for some of the turbo upgrades we have available (not the GAD cars because they are way beyond just a turbo upgrade). They are pretty much the same thing. How come? You're upgrading turbos and you're yielding about the same results as a stock turbo car?
so based off the results from the guy on dragtimes, it looks like despite the smaller turbos on m157 vs larger on s63tu, (pretty sure displacement of 5.5 vs 4.4 matters, duh) the e63 still is able to trap equally as high on the stock turbos.
Its only down on ET, but then again unlike the m6 at least thanks to AWD it doesn't need drag radials to break into the 10s to begin with.
The question I have now is why is there only one guy with a custom tune trapping 133 on stock turbos?
clearly if he can do it, then we should be showing this to tuners so we can all get tunes capable of this and be on par with the best tunes for m5/6 on stock turbos as well.
so based off the results from the guy on dragtimes, it looks like despite the smaller turbos on m157 vs larger on s63tu, (pretty sure displacement of 5.5 vs 4.4 matters, duh) the e63 still is able to trap equally as high on the stock turbos.
Its only down on ET, but then again unlike the m6 at least thanks to AWD it doesn't need drag radials to break into the 10s to begin with.
The question I have now is why is there only one guy with a custom tune trapping 133 on stock turbos?
clearly if he can do it, then we should be showing this to tuners so we can all get tunes capable of this and be on par with the best tunes for m5/6 on stock turbos as well.
because the tuners have convinced us that upgrading turbos is the only way to make this car quicker and faster only because it makes them the most money. The mods spent on that 10.6 e63 are probably around $5k with labor. The money spent on a turbo upgrade is at least $10k without labor. If you were a business owner all about money, you'd recommend the latter.
I do have to say though, why do people believe the M157 with a tune is so much faster than the M5/6 with tune??? I do not seem to see or follow the trend much anywhere online except MBworld.org???
Is it really obvious? This stock turbo car ran a quicker ET than your upgraded turbo car and 1 MPH less trap. You sure got your money's worth.
it's physics more air more fuel more power , this dragtimes car run at atco 33 ft elevation on ms 109 (don't tell me opposite , there is no other way) on prepped track , I did it on the street , on street tires , pump gas and elevation 3000 ft , put this car by mine on pump gas you'll be surprised , lol yes obvious
I'll tell my clients to stay on stock turbo's , they faster
it's physics more air more fuel more power , this dragtimes car run at atco 33 ft elevation on ms 109 (don't tell me opposite , there is no other way) on prepped track , I did it on the street , on street tires , pump gas and elevation 3000 ft , put this car by mine on pump gas you'll be surprised , lol yes obvious
I'll tell my clients to stay on stock turbo's , they faster
I do not think you are getting his point. It's not about stock turbos being faster, its about the value for modified or aftermarket turbos. The few (yourself included) who have done it are not putting out the power delta you would expect. A tune for $3000-$4000 is very well defined as to the power gains. Anything else is kind of in the air from bad components to packages than have less than 2-3MPH above the tune only cars etc etc.
I do understand that more power usually gets more expensive (ie not the same costs as the initial), but even I will admit it's been very sporadic with no real consistency for one reason or the other for these aftermarket turbo kits
it's physics more air more fuel more power , this dragtimes car run at atco 33 ft elevation on ms 109 (don't tell me opposite , there is no other way) on prepped track , I did it on the street , on street tires , pump gas and elevation 3000 ft , put this car by mine on pump gas you'll be surprised , lol yes obvious
I'll tell my clients to stay on stock turbo's , they faster
You can talk physics all you want, but I can talk software and tell you that if you upgrade your hardware, you need to have the software to be able to take advantage of your upgrades, and you clearly don't have that. Upgrading your car is a package... you make hardware upgrades and then have software to calibrate your adjustments. What I'm saying is the best package is the package that doesn't involve upgraded turbos because we don't currently have the software tuning capabilities (whether it's limits in the ECU/TCU, or lack of tuning skills) to take full advantage of the hardware you have in place.
The clear example of this is the stock turbo car achieving nearly the same 1/4 mile results you have achieved via your vbox. Please take your car to a track and run it and show us what upgraded turbos can do because we don't have a large sample set here.
I do not think you are getting his point. It's not about stock turbos being faster, its about the value for modified or aftermarket turbos. The few (yourself included) who have done it are not putting out the power delta you would expect. A tune for $3000-$4000 is very well defined as to the power gains. Anything else is kind of in the air from bad components to packages than have less than 2-3MPH above the tune only cars etc etc.
I do understand that more power usually gets more expensive (ie not the same costs as the initial), but even I will admit it's been very sporadic with no real consistency for one reason or the other for these aftermarket turbo kits
I do get his point , dragtimes car vs my car in same conditions my car wins by 6-7 mph not even a question . If we will do 0-185 he'll be 30 cars behind , this what justify turbo upgrade , not the ET .
You can talk physics all you want, but I can talk software and tell you that if you upgrade your hardware, you need to have the software to be able to take advantage of your upgrades, and you clearly don't have that. Upgrading your car is a package... you make hardware upgrades and then have software to calibrate your adjustments. What I'm saying is the best package is the package that doesn't involve upgraded turbos because we don't currently have the software tuning capabilities (whether it's limits in the ECU/TCU, or lack of tuning skills) to take full advantage of the hardware you have in place.
The clear example of this is the stock turbo car achieving nearly the same 1/4 mile results you have achieved via your vbox. Please take your car to a track and run it and show us what upgraded turbos can do because we don't have a large sample set here.
you don't know the different in elevation and gas ?
I will . Later , everything closed for winter brake
I hate to say it, but like for like mods the F10/F13 M cars will be faster, but maybe not quicker. Better tuning and boost management, less torque limiters, bigger factory and aftermarket turbo support. From a roll it will most likely go to the M cars. From a dig AMG AWD cars will probably win most stoplight battles.
I do get his point , dragtimes car vs my car in same conditions my car wins by 6-7 mph not even a question . If we will do 0-185 he'll be 30 cars behind , this what justify turbo upgrade , not the ET .
so youre saying your car will trap 140mph? If so, whoever you got your turbos from is going to make a whole lot of money.
so youre saying your car will trap 140mph? If so, whoever you got your turbos from is going to make a whole lot of money.
you're not telling the full story about that guy that just ran 133 mph on stock turbos ... it's from Percision tuning in New Jersey and from what I understand, previously he was running 129 on stock turbo but now they tuned it for meth and went to 133mph trap, so it's not exactly only stock turbos and a tune , it's a custom tune that's advancing the timing much more than a regular tune only would,which would be no different then if you wanted to get a custom tune for running race gas all the time , which any tuner can do for you, but good luck going on a road trip without trunks full of gas cans full of race gas cause you're not gonna find any race gas gas stations on the highway LOL
some people don't want to have to run meth all the time because if you run out you're screwed since you're tuned for it like in the case of running 133 mph. Previously that car did have meth but he was only using it for cooling and not tuned for it so it's no problem at that case if he runs out ... but now that he's tuned for meth it's a problem if he runs out .... my Audi b5 s4 was tuned for meth and it was great as long as I stayed in my city close to my house where I had extra cans of meth in the garage and could refill my meth injection tank, but I could never take my car on road trips without taking a ton of premixed meth water canisters in my trunk .... so that's not really a daily driver car anymore, whereas if you get upgraded turbos you can still go on road trips and fill up with regular gas and still trap way faster
I hate to say it, but like for like mods the F10/F13 M cars will be faster, but maybe not quicker. Better tuning and boost management, less torque limiters, bigger factory and aftermarket turbo support. From a roll it will most likely go to the M cars. From a dig AMG AWD cars will probably win most stoplight battles.
i always wonder about medium starting speeds.
Lets talk about amg S AWD vs m5/m6 running just ECU tunes on pump gas with stock turbos.
So we can conclude stoplight win is for e63 and m has advantage on highway.
What about if both start from a lower lower ROLL like from 20-30? Wouldn't the AWD and greater torque of m157 also win this battle?
You can talk physics all you want, but I can talk software and tell you that if you upgrade your hardware, you need to have the software to be able to take advantage of your upgrades, and you clearly don't have that. Upgrading your car is a package... you make hardware upgrades and then have software to calibrate your adjustments. What I'm saying is the best package is the package that doesn't involve upgraded turbos because wedon't currently have the software tuning capabilities (whether it's limits in the ECU/TCU, or lack of tuning skills) to take full advantage of the hardware you have in place.
The clear example of this is the stock turbo car achieving nearly the same 1/4 mile results you have achieved via your vbox. Please take your car to a track and run it and show us what upgraded turbos can do because we don't have a large sample set here.
so what your saying here is that we don't have the proper software to even be able to take full advantage and max out the STOCK turbos? And if we can't even max out what stock turbos can do, obviously upgraded turbos for sure can't be taken to full advantage?
this is probably the main reason why BMW platform
is ahead because they don't have the limits on stock turbos that we do.
But it as mentioned above, because of the smaller size of our turbos even with the limits removed it will probably only unleash more torque but not much for Whp. It could very well be that in stock turbos our horsepower is still being maxed out with our current tunes even with limits in place. So I would conclude that we can never match BMW in the highway runs but from dig/lower speed runs once we get full tuning potential on stock turbos we can definitely have the ET advantage over M.
you're not telling the full story about that guy that just ran 133 mph on stock turbos ... it's from Percision tuning in New Jersey and from what I understand, previously he was running 129 on stock turbo but now they tuned it for meth and went to 133mph trap, so it's not exactly only stock turbos and a tune , it's a custom tune that's advancing the timing much more than a regular tune only would,which would be no different then if you wanted to get a custom tune for running race gas all the time , which any tuner can do for you, but good luck going on a road trip without trunks full of gas cans full of race gas cause you're not gonna find any race gas gas stations on the highway LOL
some people don't want to have to run meth all the time because if you run out you're screwed since you're tuned for it like in the case of running 133 mph. Previously that car did have meth but he was only using it for cooling and not tuned for it so it's no problem at that case if he runs out ... but now that he's tuned for meth it's a problem if he runs out .... my Audi b5 s4 was tuned for meth and it was great as long as I stayed in my city close to my house where I had extra cans of meth in the garage and could refill my meth injection tank, but I could never take my car on road trips without taking a ton of premixed meth water canisters in my trunk .... so that's not really a daily driver car anymore, whereas if you get upgraded turbos you can still go on road trips and fill up with regular gas and still trap way faster
That's fair to say, and I wasn't aware of all of those details, but it's still important to note that we don't know all the details of many other cars that have run the 1/4 mile too. Yes, I know race gas, elevation, weight, nitrous, meth, etc. are all varying factors, but we can only work with the data we have (which is very little).
If someone wants to level the playing field with their upgraded turbos and do a run, that would be great. I'm also very curious to know why the companies that sell these kits don't provide 1/4 mile numbers (with the exception of AMS).
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