CaliBenzDriver

That could be a strike against compatibility with moded software. I think tunes are beneficial for race track WOT to make hell brake loose.

For everyday driving, stock ECU calculations are proven to deliver great driveability with working VVT.

If you still don't get improvements within 300 miles... try de-tuning back to perfect stock.

> Do expect extra chaos from broken mapped adaptations -
-- Stored data will be mismatched with stock code.
-- Giant clearing to vanilla-mint sounds safest when jumping out of this wagon.

I don't foresee detuning to be detrimental in near-term if you take it easy while ECU relearns your block.

Zero guarantee... as I mostly ignore the secret art of tuning Bosch code. Ask sales people what they have to say ✌️


Eventually we may come up with a procedure to deal with additional specifics.

This topic of mod + tune begs for a whole separate thread. Let's see where practical testing leads us to.

Software tuners can design new updates to enhance poor features. Bosch is really good at creating open opportunities. Already this has become amazing business. Pay extra to code "auto windows up" or "all doors lock"

Things we took for granted get picked apart like airplane services.

+++ I am a software guy... I like SW

TomZVB

I just watched an hour-long tear down of a M278 - the harness plug is a light interference fit against the timing cover. The guy tearing it down literally pushed it right through to get the timing cover off.

I’m going to pull mine as far forward as I can, clean it all up with some Brakleen, and clip a wire to be done with it.

Teardown… complicated engines! Also, the M278 that was highlighted has major damage to an exhaust camshaft. All cam journal surfaces showed scoring. Granted, this engine suffered from a connecting rod failure, but it was noted that the engine had strong evidence of oil starvation.

This was a 2015 M278/4-Matic from a S550. Very interesting to watch. Been building American engines for years - this is my first foray into German cars at this level. A little intimidating for sure.

juanmor40

On the topic of the mod + existing tune, I am on the fence of remove the tune, get a feeling of what the stock engine/baseline is. Then, reactivate the tune

The top end behavior/character of the engine should be the same with/without this mod. However, the tune algorithm was built on a muddy foundation, unless the tuners knew something ahead of time and kept it to themselves.
Mine is a vanilla NA engine, and it is night and day from day one, and it is still progressing.

On the code for the M274 engine, you have to see the videos and notice an additional internal harness from the block to the pump. The code is not for the solenoid itself, but for its internal submerged harness. Effectively the harness failure exposed the whole cover on this issue.

TomZVB

In case anyone wants to watch…


Horrible bore scoring among other things!

CaliBenzDriver

Tom... I really like smart ppl, glad you understand the complexity of this man-made pickle

Practically you may be dealing with an unusual leak at the base of your internal harness connector.

BrakeKleen it + RTV.

Since you build US engines, you can pass down the awareness of this dual-rate pump being used as source of opportunities.
We know GM is using it, I'd be surprised if Ford was not.

Diesels use a second solenoid to stop piston squirters independently of pressure.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Meh! Urban legend. Piston engines are piston engines. All you need are the right tools.

CaliBenzDriver

Perhaps tuners can untangle issues with their unpublished code. Knowing that helps be more patient.

Support channel is good customer service to funnel repeat business.

There's a developing need for services in luxury toys... should be plenty of fun.

Indeed I am sure Tuners can adapt to new standards and upgrade their customers.

Software development is a world of practical ideas.
✌️

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

I've "pulled the plug" on my two cars; one with a M276 DE35 NA engine and one with a M276 DE30 bi-turbo engine. The DE35 is stock and the DE30 is tuned. The improvement was most noticeable on the DE35 engine right away, especially in E tranny mode. It felt like it was in Sport mode. The improvement on the turbo engine was different as it allowed me to load the Stage 2 tune while having factory drivability. I pulled the plug on the turbo engine when the modified Stage 1 file was loaded and then switched to Stage 2 just because I was curious and discovered it really helped the smooth application of power.

In my case, I have only the M276 V6 engines, so I can't speak to V8 bi-turbo engines, with or without a tune. My recommendation is to try and be gentile until you are certain all is OK. When I first pulled the plug, I drove gently and then scanned for codes to see if anything was malfunctioning. Alles gut! The only DTC was the one I caused, P06DA00.

PeterUbers

Also - do tuners increase the high flow state of the oil pump at Lower rpms to match the increase in lower end torque? It seems that it would be a no brainer software update in the tune file; I know they increase IC pump duty and fan speed and threshold to turn on...

CZ 75

Shout out to @kevm14 . You the MVP my man. 👑

CaliBenzDriver

Yes, exactly
I call that perfect creation of value!
There is plenty of room for active providers.

Elsewhere i posted about the need for enhancement: THE HONEST GAUGE!


me not fan of idiot gauge

Imagine Tuners as genius developers to fix broken ECU features. Only they can!

I find the most rampant issues on these chassis to be purposely kept silent (glitchy strap, CAN storms, gateway traffic jams,...).
People are all to familar with the outcome but not the truggers.

A remote maintenance and diagnosis service is a perfect revenue stream.
MB has done some of that to sale data mining back to insurance companies to squeeze claims.

ImolaSix

There is no situation where activation of the solenoid would be beneficial. If a tuner is able to modify the solenoid logic in the ECU, the best course of action would be to disable its function entirely.
Anyone who is tuned can find this out by leaving the solenoid plugged in and hooking up a mechanical oil pressure gauge and checking to see if oil pressure is dynamic and rises and falls with rpm instead of 2 stage, 30 or 60 psi.

I highly doubt any off the shelf tune is modifying this parameter. Most "tunes" are just modifying ignition timing tables, boost, and torque requests (simplified).

TomZVB

This is a fairly new discovery, right? As this gains steam, I’ll bet they’ll start including or have an incentive to add. This won’t help with bent rods from too much boost, but so long as rods aren’t bent, the bore scoring issue has a chance at being rectified, or at least improved upon (if the liners are still good that is).

kevm14

There is a chance, though I'm not sure how likely, that the control threshold for the valve is based on engine torque/load (in addition to other parameters like engine/oil temp, run time since cold start, RPM, or perhaps throttle position). If it is based on engine torque in some way, then the control parameter might self-correct for the additional torque at lower RPM. Without seeing the code we just don't know.

WRC-LVR

One would think it combines many parameters. However i dont see the load on the engine at say off idle to 2500 rpm being lower than the load on the engine at idle so why in God's name would they swap to lower oil volume? Esp since the oil flow controls timing, fuel pump pressure etc
IDK but if I coded that i would look at engine temp, coolant temp, spark table , throttle position, load, xyz accellerometers ( pretty sure they have those these days even though most people dont chuck their S550's around ) as well as knock sensors and fuel content ( Ethanol content ) . I would spec the pump to have much higher flow and if a two stage was warranted have that step even higher, but only if the temp was right and the load was required. OT but do the AMG Black models have this disabled or the routine modified?
Back when i had a Mitsubshi 2005 EVO VIII MR, there was huge interest in tuning the whole ecu. Including the separate ecu that drove the AWD system. By the time I sold it on, the forums had figured out not only how to tune about 70% but had discovered many routines that were deactivated and disabled from the factory such as anti lag systems that were not legal in the USA due to injecting gas and air into the manifold to keep the turbo spooling during a shift. Whole sections of code were added in including tables to tune the boost IN each gear ! Even the coil control tables were found and modified to allow use of much better coils ( MB v12 owners note that ! ).

NOTE messing with the ECU WILL change the CVN and CALID and that means it wont pass emissions esp in California....Those people with tunes be aware of that !!!! Be sure to save multiple copies of the stock ecu images just in case you need to put it back.

NEWay its do able , BTW since this is Bosch would they have used similar code as the VW/BMW/Audi cars ? Gotta be similar across the German car universe..i would think that if anything was specific to a car line , that code would be added in and then disabled for other car lines, it is more efficient that way.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

1. The primary, if not whole, purpose of the two-stage pump is to reduce parasitic loss due to viscous drag on the oil pump's moving parts in an effort to squeeze out a few more MPGs, if any. And, this is NOT unique to Mercedes. It's just that Mercedes was smart enough to set the inactive state of the solenoid to be NORMAL pressure.
2. I think every tuner (in the US) now requires the buyer to confirm acknowledgement that the tuned vehicle will be use off public roads only. So, per @WRC-LVR , keep the stock file and be able to load it when necessary.
3. I reached out to my tuner, @VividRacing , making them aware of this oil pump issue and how disconnecting the solenoid improved the performance of their tune for my car.
4. I have also brought this to the attention of @BenzNinja since I believe if there is a software solution to disabling the solenoid, Peter would be the one to find it.

HOWEVER, both VividRacing and BenzNinja would be assuming a huge liability coding this "off-the-books" mod and may not want to do it. Other than bragging rights, I honestly don't see a lot of upside for them to take on such a risk.

AMGandS1K

Coming from the motorcycle space where tuning is also very big, I'd say a lot of it has to do with lack of interest from tuners and also German ECUs being more labor-intensive to crack. I know on my S1K BMW has completely encrypted pieces of code for features/options that a lot of people have been trying to get unlocked on the K67 2019-now generation. But, because there is only a small, albeit dedicated group of people, things simply don't get done.

Also coming from the BMW motorcycle side, any Euro bike (Aprilia, BMW, Ducati, MV Agusta, etc) is seen as having to pay the brand-tax for anything involving them. I see this exact same thing with MB/AMG tuning and parts. Is there honestly a reason for tunes that do similar things vs other brands to be priced at $1500-2000 or aftermarket OR OEM parts to be more expensive than simialr items for other brands? NO, not really other than the market being slightly smaller. But, because it's the brand, you can charge more. Would more people tune their cars if each tune was $800-$1000? I'd take that wager. Because the perfect storm of charging more thus making your market smaller, a lot of places don't see the $$$ to really invest in pushing the platform forward. There are definitely some rare exceptions like this forum, Blackboost's support for innovating products, VRP for trying to make them slightly cheaper, Eurocharged doing amazing stuff with Ethanol tunes, etc.

Overall, it's just not a brand that sees many enthusiasts who are vying for more. If the average MB-consumer who buys a performance MB wants more performance, they move to a higher-tier AMG or Porsche because they can afford it. Those of us who are only in the platform because the deflation allowed us to buy $100-200K MSRP cars for a quarter to a third of the price are typically the ones who are willing to push the car because it no longer has a warranty, it was "relatively" cheap etc. It's like a large portion of the Corvette crowd. You can also see it by the post number/frequency on here and the W212 FB group, tons of people getting into the 10-14 year old cars now.

AMGandS1K

Agreed. I also see them and the customer much less willing to experiment with tunes that could possibly be blowing a MB engine vs a Honda or Ford for instance. I do truly feel bad for all the people with emission inspections, my heart goes out to you all. *insert little prayer*

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

@AMGandS1K , well said. Risk-reward and ROI may not meet the business needs of tuners and their retailers. However, if we don't ask, we won't know. Many of the tuners and performance parts merchants are also enthusiasts that like a challenge, and just may stumble across something that will give them a competitive edge or just improve their product offering.

As an example, a couple of years ago, VividRacing offered Stage 1 and Stage 2 tunes for the M276 3.0l bi-turbo cars, with advertised gains to ~392hp and ~419hp respectively (if I remember correctly). I had drivability issues with the Stage 2 tune, so they re-wrote the tune to address the issues, with the resulting output around 400hp. They now offer only one tune at 400hp. Are they the same? I don't know. But I do know that they now have a loyal customer for life.

WANTED!!

I will flat out say what everyone else here won't. The answer to your question is absolutely not.

This is a parameter that by and large has not been a concern until really the last few years at most that most tuners never really had to concern themselves with. That's not to say it isn't a concern. However, because it hasn't been observed as a hindrance to making power, they wouldn't even think about it. That said, it's quickly becoming an observable issue to longevity in making power and maintaining reliability that more tuners might be willing to explore the issue of tuning this parameter. If the demand for adjusting this increases, them more will.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

That reminds me, the VividRacing Stage 2 tune (or was it Stage 1 🤔 ) never achieved full readiness and I would have to load the stock file for emissions inspections. But when they wrote the new "custom" file, OBD readiness was achieved. And, since I "pulled the plug", I have full readiness with the Stage 2 file.

AMGandS1K

Good insight. The question is it too late? Most of the M157 and similarly aged platforms I see are (AMG) 70K-120K or (MB) 80K-200K mile cars now.
I see a lot of retailers discontinuing and EOLing items for the M157 platform and very few tuning houses still doing new development.

I hope there are some enthusiasts in this forum who have the know-how and money to revolutionize and innovate still like @Cifdig and his beautiful intake system he is developing.

AMGandS1K

That's some good CS. Glad they got it sorted out. I wish the bigger houses like RENNtech would be as nice. I love a lot of their products, but they discontinued almost all hardware for W212 platform and were very pissy when I had issues with their Stage 1 tune of theirs that came on the car when I bought it.

PeterUbers

Does the m177/8 have a two stage oiling system?

kevm14

M176 and M177 does. I am not sure about the M178.

EDIT: Looks like M178, too.