Oil pump solenoids
#601
MBWorld Fanatic!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Maryland, United States
Posts: 4,522
Received 1,601 Likes
on
1,194 Posts
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
He is also undecided, which he stated several times. It will be interesting if he continues to ponder this issue and makes a final decision.
The following users liked this post:
jcarsnz (12-28-2023)
#603
there's is still a pressure relief valve that limits the pressure to a safe amount during it's highest pressure senarios, such as "cold honey" Alaska starts.
Last edited by kenneyd; 12-28-2023 at 09:23 AM.
#605
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,963
Received 1,564 Likes
on
981 Posts
2008 E350 (W211 @170K), 2012 ML350 (W166 @119K), 2014 E350 Sport (W212 @96K), 2015 ML350 (W166 @92K)
No, I don't think that is what he is saying. I understood him to say that there is additional stress on the oil pump in extremely cold climates, but that it is also oil weight dependent. I know a lot of folks here like to use 5W-50, but I have always used Mobil 1 0W-40 and will continue to during winter months. I may change to 5W-50 during hot weather, but for now it will stay 0W-40.
He is also undecided, which he stated several times. It will be interesting if he continues to ponder this issue and makes a final decision.
He is also undecided, which he stated several times. It will be interesting if he continues to ponder this issue and makes a final decision.
Love it when he splits drivers into 20's and 50+'s. Where does he think the "pre existing wear" comes from? Low oil pressure for those driving like grandma below 3000 rpm? I am a bit on the fence why full oil pump behavior will wear oil faster. Oil wear faster because of high temperature, and fuel and soot pollution. I agree that those on cold climates to stick to 0W40, and 5W40 for moderate weather. I would have done so even in Toyotas, low for winter and higher for the rest of the year.
As sta@CaliBenzDriver , the mod is not for everyone, but those willing to do the due diligence, and make a conscious decision. I did my E, and will do my ML after new year.
The following users liked this post:
CaliBenzDriver (12-28-2023)
#607
MBWorld Fanatic!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Maryland, United States
Posts: 4,522
Received 1,601 Likes
on
1,194 Posts
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
I keep going back to the XENTRY TIPS, topic number LI07.70-P-070763 dated 01-14-2020, that identifies the solenoid as a "non-essential part" and that the DTC will not cause a CEL and should be ignored. If the failure of the solenoid was truly harmful to the engine, Mercedes would not make such a statement.
The following 2 users liked this post by JettaRed:
CaliBenzDriver (12-28-2023),
sirrom223 (12-28-2023)
#608
MBWorld Fanatic!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Maryland, United States
Posts: 4,522
Received 1,601 Likes
on
1,194 Posts
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Of course. Anything controversial that he says, unless it can empirically shown to be true, creates a huge liability risk for him and his business.
The following users liked this post:
sirrom223 (12-28-2023)
#609
Member
#610
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 1,821
Received 651 Likes
on
448 Posts
04 E55 AMG (totaled), 07 S550 4Matic, 14 E63S
Ok so we have learned that if you see an engine DTC in generic OBD-2 mode, that is positively correlated with requesting a MIL (CEL). So if you have a CEL and want to be sure it isn't because of your oil pump valve, check via generic OBD-2. If it isn't listed there that's NOT why your CEL is on (and the real code(s) will be listed).
I don't know that all hope is lost. Plugging in a new solenoid may correct the issue. I have my doubts that the ECU is trying to correlate oil pressure to oil pump valve operation. Obviously, it COULD do this if it has an oil pressure sensor, but I don't know why they'd go through the hassle to write all that code. Furthermore, that code criteria is a circuit code. Circuit codes are not the same as sensor performance codes. So since it's the same code as everyone else, I would bet that plugging in a spare solenoid would satisfy the ECU. Again, this is my hypothesis. Only one way to prove it...
Regarding the Tasos video, I haven't watched yet. But my 2 cents is that I do not require his buy-in to consider this safe. Given his position as a business owner, I could certainly understand not wanting to endorse this. There are certainly downsides to endorsing it. What's the upshot for him?
I don't know that all hope is lost. Plugging in a new solenoid may correct the issue. I have my doubts that the ECU is trying to correlate oil pressure to oil pump valve operation. Obviously, it COULD do this if it has an oil pressure sensor, but I don't know why they'd go through the hassle to write all that code. Furthermore, that code criteria is a circuit code. Circuit codes are not the same as sensor performance codes. So since it's the same code as everyone else, I would bet that plugging in a spare solenoid would satisfy the ECU. Again, this is my hypothesis. Only one way to prove it...
Regarding the Tasos video, I haven't watched yet. But my 2 cents is that I do not require his buy-in to consider this safe. Given his position as a business owner, I could certainly understand not wanting to endorse this. There are certainly downsides to endorsing it. What's the upshot for him?
Last edited by kevm14; 12-28-2023 at 09:51 AM.
The following 2 users liked this post by kevm14:
CaliBenzDriver (12-28-2023),
JettaRed (12-28-2023)
#611
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 1,821
Received 651 Likes
on
448 Posts
04 E55 AMG (totaled), 07 S550 4Matic, 14 E63S
Thank you! I opened a thread in tech talk. Not much traffic in C217 forum and I want to broadcast this topic to more chassis
https://mbworld.org/forums/mercedes-tech-talk/880988-disconnecting-oil-pump-solenoid-gives-me-cel.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/mercedes-tech-talk/880988-disconnecting-oil-pump-solenoid-gives-me-cel.html
Last edited by kevm14; 12-28-2023 at 09:58 AM.
The following users liked this post:
zk2004mb (12-28-2023)
#612
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 463
Received 149 Likes
on
119 Posts
2012 E350 Cabriolet now SOLD to my son
"Any thoughts on unplugging the solenoid if the vehicle is still under CPO unlimited miles warranty?"
well if it needs service and they find that unplugged, they may plug it back in. And they may think you have tried to muck with the car, thereby voiding the CPO warranty ( at least they may try to do that...)
well if it needs service and they find that unplugged, they may plug it back in. And they may think you have tried to muck with the car, thereby voiding the CPO warranty ( at least they may try to do that...)
Last edited by WRC-LVR; 12-28-2023 at 10:01 AM.
#613
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 1,821
Received 651 Likes
on
448 Posts
04 E55 AMG (totaled), 07 S550 4Matic, 14 E63S
He would likely end up in court to prove that unplugging the sensor did not cause the engine failure.
Alternate option: unplug and enjoy. In the event of needing to use the engine warranty (up to and including total replacement), simply plug sensor back in before bringing the car anywhere. Yes it will have a history code, but with no CEL, you can simply play dumb.
If they conclude the sensor malfunction somehow caused the engine failure, well, the sensor is still part of the engine and should be covered. They can't prove you unplugged it at one point (unless you documented it here.....).
Last edited by kevm14; 12-28-2023 at 10:16 AM.
#615
Member
Alternate option: unplug and enjoy. In the event of needing to use the engine warranty (up to and including total replacement), simply plug sensor back in before bringing the car anywhere. Yes it will have a history code, but with no CEL, you can simply play dumb.[/QUOTE]
And this is My plan as I have an aftermarket warranty, the difference in driveability and grins is worth the unplug.
And this is My plan as I have an aftermarket warranty, the difference in driveability and grins is worth the unplug.
The following 2 users liked this post by BDC90:
sirrom223 (12-28-2023),
wheatswake (12-28-2023)
#616
Out Of Control!!
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,700
Received 2,031 Likes
on
1,418 Posts
2014 E63S; AMS 100 octane ecu tune; edok tcu tune; BB intakes; dyno tuned
I keep going back to the XENTRY TIPS, topic number LI07.70-P-070763 dated 01-14-2020, that identifies the solenoid as a "non-essential part" and that the DTC will not cause a CEL and should be ignored. If the failure of the solenoid was truly harmful to the engine, Mercedes would not make such a statement.
As you're seen, we are possibly coming to see that it does possibly cause a CEL in other m157 models (per a tech post on Kenny's video and let another member a few posts up with a 2015 s63 couple)
Last edited by PeterUbers; 12-28-2023 at 10:31 AM.
#617
Member
Somehow this link is broken for me. This should work for others: https://mbworld.org/forums/mercedes-...es-me-cel.html
The following users liked this post:
juanmor40 (12-28-2023)
#618
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,963
Received 1,564 Likes
on
981 Posts
2008 E350 (W211 @170K), 2012 ML350 (W166 @119K), 2014 E350 Sport (W212 @96K), 2015 ML350 (W166 @92K)
The harness of the M274 is not as resilient as the one on the V6/V8?
Interesting the use different part numbers for the M274 and M276. Likely length differences, but quality?
Q: why is the code more often on the M274?
#619
Member
I know people have different thoughts on disconnecting. To those who decide to keep everything in the factory way, at least we should add a sacrificial harness to the solenoid as we did on CPS and cam solenoids. I found leak on the plug when I pulled it out.
It's the same harness on cam solenoids. 2 pin to 2 pin
It's the same harness on cam solenoids. 2 pin to 2 pin
The following 2 users liked this post by zk2004mb:
CaliBenzDriver (12-28-2023),
kevm14 (12-28-2023)
#620
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 1,821
Received 651 Likes
on
448 Posts
04 E55 AMG (totaled), 07 S550 4Matic, 14 E63S
@PeterUbers , Here is my take on it, and would love to be enlightened on the topic.
The harness of the M274 is not as resilient as the one on the V6/V8?
Interesting the use different part numbers for the M274 and M276. Likely length differences, but quality?
Q: why is the code more often on the M274?
The harness of the M274 is not as resilient as the one on the V6/V8?
Interesting the use different part numbers for the M274 and M276. Likely length differences, but quality?
Q: why is the code more often on the M274?
The following 5 users liked this post by BDC90:
C43 Fun Haver (12-28-2023),
kevm14 (12-28-2023),
sirrom223 (12-28-2023),
slobo (07-10-2024),
WRC-LVR (12-28-2023)
#622
Member
I thought it was interesting the ability to see drivability changes based on engine health/wear. While I trust what he’s saying in the video, I have read about the various dislikes of the MCT even on a new car - the sluggishness, gear hunting, etc. I had never driven an MCT car until mine was delivered, but based on what I read, I knew what to expect. And it was exactly as explained. However, when I unplugged the solenoid, all that went away. The responsiveness at low revs was markedly changed - the driving characteristics of the car were markedly changed. Yes, my car has high mileage, but the engine is quiet and it starts with barely a tap of the button. I would say that it’s in very good health.
If I’ve read other responses correctly, then I believe that similar results have been seen with even low mileage cars (across the 6 cyl and 8 cyl engines).
My thinking here is that he has to err on the side of protecting his business with regard to should you or should you not.
Unplugging was the right decision for me.
I was hoping he’d provide more detail around piston oiling and bore-scoring prevention. Perhaps in a future video?
If I’ve read other responses correctly, then I believe that similar results have been seen with even low mileage cars (across the 6 cyl and 8 cyl engines).
My thinking here is that he has to err on the side of protecting his business with regard to should you or should you not.
Unplugging was the right decision for me.
I was hoping he’d provide more detail around piston oiling and bore-scoring prevention. Perhaps in a future video?
The following 3 users liked this post by TomZVB:
#623
Member
on the m274 ... would still love to see this for m157 if it's truly applicable to all engines
As you're seen, we are possibly coming to see that it does possibly cause a CEL in other m157 models (per a tech post on Kenny's video and let another member a few posts up with a 2015 s63 couple)
As you're seen, we are possibly coming to see that it does possibly cause a CEL in other m157 models (per a tech post on Kenny's video and let another member a few posts up with a 2015 s63 couple)
Might just be an S63 thing.
#624
Member
Few things to consider about Tasos' video:
1. I disagree about the cold oil causing excess stress to the oil pump. The literature states that even with the solenoid plugged in the the ECU reverts to "high" oil pressure mode during cold start. The pump has a relief valve at 60 psi. Whether that limit is reached with cold or hot oil, it does not matter, 60 psi is 60 psi, the oil pump will not be stressed beyond this. Use common sense and do not run a 5w50 in an extremely cold climate. During a cold start a 0w40 will move through the oil galleries faster before hitting the 60psi bleed off.
2. Not sure where he is getting the 23 psi piston oil squirter number from as again the MB literature states specifically that under "low" oil pressure mode (30 psi) the squirters are off. Will be asking this in the comments of his video as he must have some intimate knowledge of the true characteristics of the ball valve for this application.
3. Not exactly sure what he means about the oil "not lasting" with the pump in "high" pressure mode. Is he referring to the engine burning more oil, or does he mean the oil will shear faster? I agree that 15,000 km oil changes have no business on a TT V8.
I agree with others here that he is not going to outright say to unplug as the liability for his business is too high.
1. I disagree about the cold oil causing excess stress to the oil pump. The literature states that even with the solenoid plugged in the the ECU reverts to "high" oil pressure mode during cold start. The pump has a relief valve at 60 psi. Whether that limit is reached with cold or hot oil, it does not matter, 60 psi is 60 psi, the oil pump will not be stressed beyond this. Use common sense and do not run a 5w50 in an extremely cold climate. During a cold start a 0w40 will move through the oil galleries faster before hitting the 60psi bleed off.
2. Not sure where he is getting the 23 psi piston oil squirter number from as again the MB literature states specifically that under "low" oil pressure mode (30 psi) the squirters are off. Will be asking this in the comments of his video as he must have some intimate knowledge of the true characteristics of the ball valve for this application.
3. Not exactly sure what he means about the oil "not lasting" with the pump in "high" pressure mode. Is he referring to the engine burning more oil, or does he mean the oil will shear faster? I agree that 15,000 km oil changes have no business on a TT V8.
I agree with others here that he is not going to outright say to unplug as the liability for his business is too high.
The following 2 users liked this post by ImolaSix:
CaliBenzDriver (12-28-2023),
Ginco (12-28-2023)
#625
MBWorld Fanatic!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Maryland, United States
Posts: 4,522
Received 1,601 Likes
on
1,194 Posts
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
It's probably too soon to make that connection empirically, though anecdotally, the connection is there. We may never have an ironclad link between the two because of the impact it would have on Mercedes and other manufacturers that use a 2-stage oil pump. After all, how many non-AMG cars has cylinder scoring been shown to be a problem? And what percentage of AMG engines have failed because of oil starvation? It may be more financially advantageous to just warranty failures instead of a non-safety recall or an engineering change. It would be interesting to know if the new SL43 engine uses this oil pump configuration.
The following users liked this post:
CaliBenzDriver (12-28-2023)