CaliBenzDriver

JR, your idle oil pressure is very interesting... the gauge is showing 26Psi at idle right ?

idle pressure

That is measuring the bottom of the spray pressure range.

The pump does not have enough VOLUME at idle to supply FLOW through all the squirters.

As soon as any one of the squirters opens, the available pressure drops back to below squirting.

Squirters have individual "ball-on-spring" to preserve oil pressure for the rest of the engine bearings while pressure is low.
Cooling is not necessary nor possible at low RPM's.

CaliBenzDriver

Kev, it is interesting you've noticed all that
in particular how the strong engine throttle dissipates when heat climbs up and you want engine to stay strong with excellent mixtures.

Yes Can-Do, there's a solution for that: MOD-2.1!

It's a really good sign your engine block is able to make use of the oil pressure difference and the ECU has noticed that.
Your engine is coming around nicely with sealed-cylinders improvements.

You realize that greater performance seems highly temp dependent... it is.

What oil type are you using? Mileage?
Light viscosity may be aged below specs after a while or 1500Mi... boosting time!

What's happening is the favorable cold viscosity vanishes at operating temperature. That's when I said I wanted a 7W42 oil!

5W50 viscosity is way out of my ballpark... perhaps you'll find it worthy of testing??

I tried not to be too low and not too high so I boosted 5w40 MOD-2.0 into 2.1 with 300 to 500ml shots of heavier oil.


> Vicious cycle:
When viscosity falls, squirting is disabled and oil heats up, viscosity drops further. A vicious cycle!

To prevent that we need to adjust the viscosity to stay ahead of oil thinning and burning.


> Virtuous cycle:
When dialed in, I show engine temperature control can be retained thus oil viscosity stays useful.
The key is the effective spray RPM to prevent extreme heat that waste the oil qualities. See the loop ?


> Mixing or not...
When Mr. LakeJr speaks against mixing, it's regarding the various additives related to friction + wear modifiers.
He states that too much of a good thing ZDDP is bad and stock packages may get watered out.
I specifically don't deal with additives package.

My only concern is providing a stable viscosity that benefits ECU timings with smooth predictable cycles. Leaky cylinders cause CKP jitter that disables performance.

kevm14

Based on member feedback I don't think I should be scared of 5W-50. All I am really worried about is that it is group V and is the additive pack "good" for the M157. I do not think it is too thick and I'm not concerned with that.

CaliBenzDriver

sounds good! Only one way to find out what really works is to put it to the test.

A xW50 viscosity is really going to spray and keep temperatures and viscosity in perfect check.

With excellent wet lubing you may not need the advanced "dry-lube" package from Approved oils. Cylinders are never going to run dry.

On the down side I don't know what heavy oil pressure can do to our seals ???

Measure cold/warm pressures to see how strong your 5w50 numbers are.

juanmor40

I have never seen an xW 50 oil with the MB 229.5x approval. It is not even listed on the MB operating fluids page for any brand.

An engineer working for a major automotive components manufacturer advised me: "You can play with the oil pressures, but be aware of not playing with the chemistry. The material, coatings, and surface finish have been tuned for a specific oil package"

That is as much as he was willing to share with me when I discussed this thread in December/January—

Watching Lake Speed Jr videos, he emphasizes the "chemistry" and that resonated on my head with the advice above.

my 2c.

CaliBenzDriver

Juan, I could not agree more.
The undisclosed mystery package in each blend is essential for metal frictions.

I try to experiment with as few variables as possible at the time for a chance to control what is happening.

Approved oils are great... they just need a little push for concistent viscosity.

I do not care to temper with MB approved friction package.

With that being said, any other good "Approved oil" you like and think we should try??

+++++
Ken says Mob1 has a 5W40 on-sale at Walmart.
Perhaps it's more lasting under heat than their light 0W40.

slobo

Maybe 1 or 2 bottles of 5W50 and the rest 5W40.

CaliBenzDriver

Slobo, yes this concept is proven to be effective but 1 or 2000 ml of xW50 is too HUGE!

I tried a splash of 500ml and found it was a bit much so I recommended 300ml in small increments of 100ml at a time.

As oil ages its viscosity qualities are lost into thin burned black oil. Even the excellent MOTUL 5W40 needed a viscosity boost after 1500Mi when it started to smoke...

Doctoring oil viscosity disturbs the VVT positioning by way of the electro-magnet (VVT solenoids). So ECU needs time to relearn from that confusion.
Smaller shots let ECU adapt more gradually.


A shot of 1000ml xW50 in Mob1 0W40 may be viable... Go ahead split in smaller doses up to what works well ie. try not to overdose viscosity shots too high else you can simply renew fresh oil.


++++ Each and every oil its own mix...
In the end I think we can accommodate everyone's "approved oil" be it a 0 or 5W40.

We should be able to get some kind of average number to add based on factors:

• stock oil
• boost oil
• oil mileage
• engine type
• driving/racing style
• locale weather tropical/polar

An initial boost shot (300ml) followed by viscosity maintenance with smaller (100ml) shots.
🤞

kevm14

The oil pump has a relief valve to prevent oil pressure from blowing out seals. I'm not worried about it.

Yes I want to make sure something like a Motul 8100 is going to jive with my M157. I do NOT think the 229.5 is that exotic and is mainly a combo of a halfway decent synthetic (to get the long intervals) + fuel economy.

And yet you are happy to mix oils? I don't understand this logic.

Don't mix.

ImolaSix

Mobil 1 FS 5W-50 Product Data Sheet

Has Mercedes 229.3 spec. Our cars require 229.5 spec however supposedly 229.5 is just a long life version of 229.3 designed for extended drain intervals and lower viscosity for fuel economy. If I lived in a warmer climate, I would be running this oil year round.

CaliBenzDriver

Kev, what we are discovering here is not set in stone. We're here for live experimentations after all.


> 100% 5w50 high viscosity:
-- Take a look at the VVT positioning by magnet duty-cycle so it's not maxed out near 1% when you provide a flat 60psi across most of the RPM.

-- ECU maps the VVT magnet PWM based on what CPS has historically reported.

-- Some ppl fear smashing the relief spring with prolonged use. Same thing with squirters springs. It's a possibility but not near the top.

-- Solid pressure is definitely going to command great tensioners stiffness.


> The way I look at viscosity here is...
I don't think a 6% shot (500ml mixed with 7500ml) makes a signicant change to the approved additives package.

I believe my MOD-2.1 mixed viscosity is better than running a burned 0W40 for 10kMi like most engines.

I may not be entirely right and don't want to be wreckless so I use common group III synthetics.

My actions are aligned with my words:
4kMi on MOD-2.1
this solution satisfies my ECU constraints.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

No. Pressure is actually at 30 psi and the angle of the camera makes it look like 26 psi. Look at the shadow of the gauge needle. Here is the entire video.


WRT the other discussion about mixing oils, I read that oils of the same brand were safe to mix, but not mixing brands.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Here's a video I made earlier with the solenoid disconnected.

BDC90

1500 mi on Motul 5W40. 6500 mi. since unplug.

Rickman30

Has anyone done an oil analysis on the 5w-40 Motul to see how well the viscosity holds up? I am very interested in this oil.

CaliBenzDriver

Rick, your interest in this oil will meet your needs for any MOD level you favor.

I am running it currently over 4kMi with 500ml booster shot.

I liked its initial visvosity snd can only say positives about this blend to yield VISCOSITY

CaliBenzDriver

IT STILL LOOK PRESTINE! It's not burning duh!
Glad to be part of the solution.

keep an eye on it right around now for viscosity losses to resume limited squirting... high heat.
Then one day you wake up and then remember about booster-shots to replenish lost viscosity.
That's exactly how MOD-2.1 begun

S-Prihadi

I have not had the chance to log my COLD start engine oil pressure at any cooler temperature than 25C / 77F as no such cooler temperature can exist in my hot city, all year round.

Based on my engine's COLD start strategy of approx 55 seconds higher RPM than standard idling of 650-700 RPM, here are the oil pressure values when at 30.6C / 87.1 F
55.2 seconds of COLD start log. This is OIL SOLENOID defeated.

If oil solenoid not defeated, the high oil pressure allowance is approx 35 seconds from engine start, by the ECM, based on my engine.




.





In 0.2 seconds increment.
Start of engine cranking at 2.6 second, engine already running by 3.2 second. Only 0.6 seconds crank engine will surely fire.
.


.




I am skipping to 25th seconds, where RPM is now down to 900 ish as set by ECM




I am skipping again to the last 50ish seconds, which for my engine is the time ECM will set my engine to idling speed, after a COLD start.


.



By right any cooler country temperature, will yield at least 38PSI or higher oil pressure at 60th second after engine start when at 710 RPM and engine oil no hotter than 32C./ 90F.
from a good engine oil. My engine oil is always fresh. The last 2 years I done only 3,000KM and I do oil change regardless , per 6 to 8 months.


My car in D gear ( 2nd gear) when hot 98C / 208F coolant temp, 32-34C ambient temp...while creeping in the traffic without accelerator pedal assist , it is 550RPM or a tiny bit lower.
engine oil pressure will then be 13.x to 15 PSI where oil temp is 95C.

The ambient temp sensor ( AAT ) DISPLAY on our car Instrument Cluster is a compensated one as the engine computer knows a car in creeping traffic get the AAT sensor heat contaminated.
So below you will see 40C AAT, because the OBD2 data is raw and not compensated, but the IC display will show like 33-34C at best.
See how any extra 50-100 RPM above 550 will raise oil pressure decently high, for a hot oil. 13.13 PSI at 526 RPM becoming 16.81 PSI at 628 RPM is 3.68 PSI higher from 13.13 PSI = 28% higher


5Hz data


The engine oil temperature plays a great deal in actual oil pressure at low RPM, I mean creeping traffic jam if for me the 550 RPM range.


If an oil solenoid defeated engine, at up to 95C oil temperature and can't get at least 35 PSI or higher when at 2,000 RPM , the oil probably is not holding its viscosity well in the heat.

BELOW 2 TABLES :
The under 1 hour run is using Mobil 1 OW40 which is already SP rated. The 8+ hour run is when the same Mobil 1 is not yet SP rated.

8+ hour run is with 3 fuel stop and 1 lunch break. Lunch break 30-40 minutes, fuel stop under 10 minutes engine OFF. Distance covered approx 800KM.
The coolant for 8+ hour run is usually that hot at 100C ish, if car coming out from highway into city slow traffic. At this point in time I am still using the old 2014 thermostat.
I now got a new thermostat in May 2024, but have not run my engine for any long trip yet.


5Hz data



I think a Bank's Monster gauge and its extra sensors ( need extra module/s) is a worthwhile investment for those loving their engine and wants to keep the car as long as I would,
which the plan is minimum to 20 years or 2034.

Not knowing my engine oil pressure and oil temperature is way to scary for me.
In fact having OBD based coolant temperature data alone is already an eye opener because MB coolant temp at IC display is a manipulated one to read lower....until it is really VERY hot.

kevm14

Even same brand is no guarantee of compatibility. I hope everyone watched the Lake Speed, Jr video on how even the tiny amount of oil left over from an oil change, when switching oils, leads to weird analysis numbers until you change the oil a second time. Now imagine that with deliberately poured amounts.

kevm14

Yes this is my point on oil pressure "spikes." The oil pressure will be the same for that 35 seconds on a cold start regardless of whether you have unplugged or not.

I have noticed this on my E63 and I am a little disappointed to see that. I know this is a thing on regular cars but I was hoping on an AMG the Germans wouldn't have the stones to fudge the data.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Sadly, not all enthusiasts are technically or mechanically inclined to learn how things work. I can imagine some new owner taking their AMG car into the dealer and demanding they fix the erratic temperature readings, and having hissy fits until they sell the car and buy a Honda.

The weird/funny thing is, on my 2000 Ford F-150 with an oil pressure gauge (along with temp and voltage), the gauges don't move after I start the truck, regardless of engine speed. I can only conclude they are worthless.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Interesting, my son's 2018 Honda CRV runs factory 18.5 psi of boost on a 1.5 liter motor for 190 hp. The specified oil is 0W-20. The video makes me a little nervous.

CaliBenzDriver

Kev, we watched the same video of Valvoline lab tour with Mr. Lake where they test special oil detergent formulations and run oil analysis.

Valvoline test procedure goes through great length to double-rince test engines to prevent tainting their oil samples.


I heard absolutely nothing about incompatibilities of group III oils that relate to what I've done to test viscosity.
To the contrary, I believe all MB Approved oils share the exact same dry-lube chemistry modifiers from the same few suppliers that are highly compatible if not 100% same few polar molecules.

The main difference between oil companies in the 5W40 segment is the stock qualities and package blend concentrations. Realize oil is giant mix already.

The video where Mr. Lake bashes oil additives he says viscosity modifier, I think Lucas will dangerously dilute anti-friction package - I use a full featured Mob1. 15w50 with the full blown chemistry at a 6% mixing ratio.

I wish Mr. Lake Jr. or other engine authority would shine some light about dry-lubed cylinders - That would be interesting because Mr. Lake knows both low tension rings he sells and oil lubrication.

So I have no concern with my MOD-2.1 blend and respect conservative opinions not to mix. A straight MB-Approved blend may be "safer", right?
​​​​
A 15W50 is one of the best oil, all times favorite.
It is everything the others are not:.very stable under heat.

I guess hot TT are a great use case for a stable piston cooling guaranteed.

We don't need to disagree.... because we don't need to agree. Different engines have different needs. Turbo can use fair temperature management: 15w50 does that all day no problem.

This oil will never get burned because the pistons will always be well under 250F (not near cracking).

Here is a caution about confused ECU/TCU upon tempering with viscosity in any way. Having gone through that I will say this:
-- Avoid changing viscosity often!
-- Keep steps small minimum ... 100ml

ECU/TCU hate the change for some arcane reason

Once you've crossed through tranny hell you get to super stable temperature. The driving response is remarkably really solid regardless of 2Hrs 70+ mph drive + city traffic. Tranny doesn't get sloppy either from hot ATF.

Once on 15W50 you can thin it down with 0w40 and 5w40.

AMG__POWER

Drove the car about 25 miles today and I just give thanks to the fellas who discovered this mod! My car sat for about 6 days and cold started at 77 degrees. I let it idle for about 3-4 mins and it got to 90, then I drove in stop and go freeway traffic and it heated up after around 6-7 mins, which is less than half of the time it used too. I also noticed it seems to cool down quicker with temps reaching no more than 213 but typically street moving at around 208/201 and highway around 197/199. I’m no expert on oils like this thread has been discussing, but per the og’s here (Peter,cali, both kev’s etc) I run liquimoly 5w-40 (purple bottle) with ceratec, change the oil every 6 months or 2500-3k miles and live in LA where it does get pretty warm

W205C43PFL

That is a good choice of oil, alongside others like Motul and Pennzoil : )