kevm14

I was referring to this. I searched the thread and apparently we don't actually know the squirter enable threshold. We only have speculation, informed by the "2 bar/4 bar" language in the 2 stage oil pump WIS documents. Well 2 bar is 29 psi so I guess we can assume the squirters spray somewhere above this. I'm good with walking that part back. But see above for Surya's M276 oil pressure test results.

CaliBenzDriver

Thank you Kev

that looks like nicely strong pressure in relation to spray nozzle 25psi specs and it's Surya's 0w40 which we know is fresh.
I see 90°C temps: we're in the low end of operating temps.

I was motivated to quit using that Mob1. 0W40 oil smoking in my M276-NA since factory new.

I got relief with Juan's advice: MOTUL Xcess 5w40 until it aged enough and restarted storing high hot... then I decided to try booster shots to satisfaction.

We don't have to put up with uncontrolled stored heat. I went from "fan ON in Winter" to "NO fan necessary" to cool without stored piston heat.

Thing is you can't extrapolate 25Psi squirters are going to befriend aged 0W40 oil. Just like the Motul shades viscosity after x-many heat cycles.
It's 0w cold temps flow make it a light w40 for excellent gas savings.

Oil choices are few between 5w40 and 5w50. I too want a 10 or 15w...

My oil blending is just my way to close in on stable limits. I'll be happy to find other solutions than mixing ✌️


The reality is how fast viscosity slops down under spray heat??
I show we can restore good driveability with greater viscosity. When the engine is temp controlled, tranny too! I do I know... you'll know it when you see it. Solid performance regardless of driving time. This was not available while packing high heat.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

I go back to what I measured using the method prescribed in the WIS with an external gauge. With the solenoid unplugged, I am at 30 to 35 psi at idle. This was with either 0W-40 or 5W-40. I feel comfortable with those observations.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

CaliBenzDriver

JR in your video you show oip pressure measured at oil pump port (per WIS) running elevated cold idle ~ 50 psi.
When warmed it's 30psi idle and a stable 45psi in higher Rpm's.

This does look like a very favorable spray pressure.


PARADOXALY:
How can we measure "high" pump pressure near idle and borderline enough for squirters around 2000.Rpm?? That can be mind bugging.

A while back a pump expert reminded us that pumps move volume not pressure.
With squirters closed, we have enough volume available to build pressure until it falls down when 8x tiny squirters open.

The oil pump shaft is under-reved and perhaps has a restriction in the squirters supply galery not to starve from crank bearings...

CaliBenzDriver

Do you want to remove extreme heat ??
- we can exclude lower viscosities, right?
- the only valid way to explore is up

> Realize that even AMG engines have no direct oil temp sensor much like dipstick tCouple sees nothing outside good squirting Rpm's.
When not sprayed, oil remains only heated slowly by coolant exchanger.

I am the first one to never say no. I stuck my neck out so far. Options are:

1. the genuine "MB approved" oil
2. the exact mix blend

> PLAN B:
We simply need more than 5w40 and less than 5w50... anyone knows a better ways

If your engine is still with extreme heat (indoor parkers) increase viscosity which ever way. I might try it later to. I am not stuck mixing...

WE NEED 10W40 or 15W40 : (not diesel oils).



+++ Trust yourself: BUMP VISCOSITY 👏

a 100mL shot to welcome 4500Mi

Now currently @ 4750.Mi @600mL

Need test upgrade oil or stay Motul. I now know an approximative formula for it

100mL per 1000'sMi <<== shareware formula.
(A little bit light side as I am at 6 for 5)

AMG__POWER

Just to clarify as I am no where near as smart as yall but have been closely following this thread… this mod is safe to do as long as we used mb approved oils and do our early oil changed roughly around 3k?

CaliBenzDriver

Yes exactly, that's a fair assessment.
3000.Mi oil guarantees minimal viscosity loses.


Driving this MOD my experience has been a transformation journey. I discovered what was hidden behing the nasty short Gear1-2-3 shifts.

From my current perspective: it's all good as far as safety. Not to say that ECU/TCU is smooth sailing during transitions.
Trust your local specialist is also good.


> COLLATERAL BENEFITS :
... You know the front footwell is insulated but you noticed in hot weather, the drivers feet would get heatted by the engine firewall, yes?
- Now no more!!
The oil stays cool and your feet as well.
High pistons heat is not stored, it's removed.
Firewall remains at noticeably lower heat level.


i bet cooler pistons help against "pre-igniting" the new special "SP oils".

kevm14

AMGs have real oil temp sensors.

S-Prihadi

.
To avoid confusion for members who thinks the oil pressure dual stage of 2 / 4 BAR is purely RPM based, it is not.
Let me explain in more detail on number 1 in red

.





MB engineer are not stupid to lock us out of higher oil pressure simply because the engine has not reached 3,500 RPM.
The oil solenoid algo is based also on engine load. So EVEN at lower RPM but when the engine load is high enough as per MB's MAP kept in the ECM, the oil solenoid will be
de-activated and higher oil pressure will occur.

The 5 pages of data below is at 5Hz or 5 data points per second, see the time scale. Them 5 represent continues 2,756th second to 2,776th second or 21 seconds only.
This log is oil solenoid untouched as-is, standard.


NOTE : 28-30 psi ( 2 BAR ) or lower when at RPM all the way to 3,500 RPM, that is oil solenoid activated to reduce oil pressure.
So when you see above 30 PSI, that oil solenoid is already de-activated by ECM.





ABOVE : See the ECM commands oil solenoid to de-activate and give engine higher oil pressure within 0.4 seconds of engine absolute load goes to 116.5% from 44.3%
By 0.6 second oil pressure from 24.82 psi has jumped up to 31.76 psi and then 0.2 second later to 38.73 psi and keep climbing to the proper RPM vs Oil Pressure of a defeated oil solenoid.

Below : The ECM does not immediately re-activate oil solenoid to reduce engine oil pressure. It is waiting for more high load demand by me.
Yes I did command more load by row 13819 or 2,762.8 th second

Above : See 55 psi at 2,458 RPM. Excel row 13822.


...............



.....




BELOW :: See tow 13875 or 2,274 seconds, ECM already reducing oil pressure to 31.64 psi while engine load WAS 11% for a few seconds.
And then ECM sense that I may be putting more load soon , at 2,775.2 second it raise again oil pressure to 34.85 psi .
Yes, delay is expected between me putting more engine load and ECM commanding oil solenoid and the actual oil pressure going up , less than 1 second usually.




=========================


NOTE : Defeated oil solenoid with hot engine oil and coolant temperature, will produce full 55 psi already by 2,400 ish RPM .








..........



To Cali,




Please get an oil pressure sensor and log it to support 2 and 3 , it is about time.
The more engines has oil pressure sensor and if possible oil temperature sensor, the better data gathering we can achieve.



=====================

BONUS

Here is the strategy from BMW and Audi on piston oil cooling jet pressure profile.







Old engine, simple oil jet with spring and ball.




===============





....

This is the kind of information we want from MB .....





..................





BMW B57 & Audi awesome booklet attached.
I really wish MB produce such detailed information print out too

kevm14

Well, well. BMW turns off piston sprayers to increase fuel economy and decrease emissions. Sounds familiar.

S-Prihadi

Yep...as always .... but they want our car to last just a tiny bit after warranty expires, by advising 10,000 miles on today's car oil change interval and often claiming lifetime tranny fluid....

W205C43PFL

CaliBenzDriver

Surya, you have expertly logged every engine sensors already which allowed us to shade light on limited cooling.
MOD-1 was born then I kept experimenting to stop burning oil black.


> Why We See Things Differently... :
- When you measure regulated 200F coolant with cool oil, you conclude it's all right. That makes sense.

- On the other end my M276-NA basic PCV ingests burned oil by the quarts into its swampy intake.
I easily know when heat burns my oil: it smells like burned oil that looks blackened (since factory).

- I don't have to measure anything to know: pass/fail... above Smoke point it's failed.
​​​​​​
-- I am a database scientist who is not going to wait for every data to act with what we have.
-- We know numbers don't fix anything... only actions can. So I went ahead to directly test my assumptions.
-- No complication from too many unknowns impossible to manage. "Reality check is the best way to sort good ideas!"
-- Again its common knowledge that engine oil moves engine heat: duh!


> PARADOX SOLVED!
I have just understood why we don't get expected cooling despite 40+psi oil pressure greater than 25psi squirters....

> FIRE-HOSE VS GARDEN-HOSE...
Squirters need outpout volume to cool just like a firehose can put out more water than a garden hose.
The engine needs enough oil volume to wash down the heat from pistons.

It is wrong to think that being above squirting Psi is enough to cool pistons well. Without enough volume pistons are heated more than cooled equals positive balance builds up stored heat.

My experiment shows that better viscosity provides more cooling to remove enough heat without storing any.

When we don't provide high enough squirting pressure, pistons only get "wet" but not enough oil showers heat away.

The piston cooling has to be effective while the heat is being produced at driving speed.
There is no such thing as over cooling... Oil temp is near regulated coolant temperature.


> Un-accounted ELEPHANT...
We are unable to measure the heat stored in pistons.
We are ignoring the top heat source and like to trust data points.
That's why I am searching for answers experimentaly. The end choice is super simple.

Even the best AMG sensor can only measure the oil itself. Oil temps look good when oil is not circulated well enough to remove stored heat. Meaning its easy to misunderstand low "oil temp" sensor as being fine:
low oil temp = hot engine!
higher oil temp = cooled engine


> INSTRUMENTATION / EXPERIMENTATION:
- We don't need every single last numbers to understand where the limits are.

- Just like the clever Bosch ECU we don't need every sensors to act.

- Already we can see what's happening.

- No numbers necessary for this law:
lower viscosity = higher heat
higher viscosity = lower heat
Select your preference.


> EASY CHOICES:
"MB Approved" choices to remove core heat are very few good candidates:

1. Mobil1
2. LiquiMolly
3. Motul
4. Pennzoil
5. ​​​​​Amsoil

You can SIMPLY RANK OIL BY VISCOSITY and select what you need within your comfort zone.

The resulting stored heat is 100% based on this choice.
I am more open to blending than W50 driveability. I am sure W50 perfectly cools. I am more open to blending 6w42 until we can find a heavier W40 such as 10 or 15W40.

Test driving leads with hard results.

It is not my quest to collect data because the outcome will circle back to same question:
What "MB Approved" oil is more viscous?


MOD-2.1 @ 4700.MI: satisfying amber + consistency



++++ ZERO BURNING OIL !​​​​
I was used to feeding quarts of oil since new.
Did not entirely know where oil was wasted
Engine has clearly stopped ingesting burned oil now.
I am going to conclude it was mostly caused by vaporization, not so much rings. A welcomed news for all.

AMG__POWER

Drove about 30 miles today in approx 85 degree weather, with heavy stop and go traffic and the ac on. The car temps did not surpass 215/199 and generally stayed around 212/199. I did do the oil spray technique a couple times downshifting to above 2800 rpm and running that for about 5-10 seconds. I do believe that even in heat as long as we are maintaining our frequent oil changes and using HIGH quality oil we should be fine with mod 1.0-3.0. If we think about it, many AMG’s of all models run in much hotter weather in let’s say the UAE, where temps can reach 110+ frequently and these guys still beat there cars many with the solenoid plugged in I’m sure! Amg engineers are probably some of the smartest out there so I’m sure they knew what they were doing with the cars. Happy driving

CaliBenzDriver

Your best protection is your decision for 3000.Mi oil change. Peace of mind included.
Right as oil turns into burn shades.

If you go in with a heavier oil, there will still be more viscosity left after 3kMi. Is a way to drop from a higher point.

We just need to compare viscosity actual numbers to sort them out if numbers trusted honest claims.

AMG__POWER

I’ll let you guys know with pics how the lm 5w-40 looked with ceratec at my next oil change. I’m planning to use lm molygen 5w-50 (green bottle)
have you heard anything solid

zk2004mb

I did my oil change yesterday at 6mo/3.5k miles. I was surprised by the burnt color and metallic hue of the oil. Probably because I have too many short trips and it was winter. But still surprised. I was expecting the oil to be in a much cleaner state.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Metallic hue doesn't sound good. Did you keep the oil to send a sample for analysis? Do you drain from the oil pan or suction out the dipstick tube?

OldManAndHisCar

Sounds like someone who comes in for a physical, feels great, ate right and has pancreatic cancer....

zk2004mb

ordered blackstone sample kit, will send sample out when it arrives.
I did the drain from the oil pan. The first couple of drops of oil before taking out the screw is definitely metallic.
Once all the oil drained to the container, the color looks normal like any used oil. It's the first several drops concern me.

Oil is liquid moly 5w-40 leichtlauf

zk2004mb

12% survival rate in 5 years. Sounds like an AMG engine.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

I have always suctioned the oil through the dipstick tube. You may want to use a magnetic drain plug and see how much gets collected.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

For those interested in viewing the oil temperature as reported by the ECU (and you have XENTRY or other Mercedes specific scanner), it can be found in the live Data Stream. Go to Actual values (or equivalent) and Test values while driving in full load mode. You do not need to actually be driving or under full load to view the Oil Temperature. My car was stationary, at idle, and parked on a sideways slant.

zk2004mb

M157 is a little bit different. Drain from the bottom is required.