AMG__POWER

What would Metallic flakes in the oil represent? Hopefully not the same as if found in transmissions or diffs

CaliBenzDriver

Thank you JR, this is a really nice nugget.
MB specifically says to only measure "under load..." such that oil has favorable chances to be removing piston heat.


When you look at temp of oil not well circulated ("under load" RPM's), you are measuring temps from coolant heat exchanger, not the STORED PISTON HEAT out of reach.


This can lead to misunderstandings. Meaning:
hot oil = cooled engine
cool oil = hot engine!

That's why engine condition needs to be "under load" to collect piston heat instead of coolant temp. This detail makes the whole measure valid or invalid.

The best way to see what's happening is to log data like Master Surya does! He knows well how difficult it is to collect actionable data and I do to with complete appreciation. Only good data are valuable (Carbon... charcoal vs. diamonds).


The temperature value are slow moving so we need many data point (5Hz) to observe how temps dynamically react.


The best example of bad measurements is with tire pressure when ignoring "cold only" - Hot values are all over the place, hard to correlate hot psi with cold values.

CaliBenzDriver

metalic flakes we see are non-ferrous from the usual places: aluminum cam bearings, piston skirts, crank bearings.

Ferrous material collects on magnets which I hope we have in our oil sump.

Some ppl decorate their oil filters with additional neodymium magnets... a pretty good idea actually!

CaliBenzDriver

We don't need a PhD to recognize burnt oil. Pull the engine dipstick, there is your quick test result.

What happens after is what impacts future results.

-1- You like your favorite oil... I do to.
-2- You don't like burnt oil... I dont either.


With high blowby gases, the byproducts of combustion degrade the oil chemistry whith acidity hense high calcium package.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

@CaliBenzDriver the purpose of my posting was to show that the oil temperature as derived by the ECU could be observed by those without the AMG menu, assuming they have a proper scan tool. I continue to find that the oil temperature displayed in the AMG menu is within a fraction of temperature shown in the XENTRY display. Of course, we should expect that because it's the same derived temperature signal. However, the coolant temperatures can be off by almost 20°F. THAT I don't understand.

CaliBenzDriver

MB gives us the ECU formula to doctor the temperature display and you're saying the ECU Temp is also skewed by 20°F.
Cooked numbers for design reasons, carry different meaning than what we are interested in. At least if we consider these numbers we can't forget their meaning is untrue.

This is similar to Airline Miles... it cost 20,000.Miles to fly 4,000.Mi -- Meaning these Miles are not all the same single unit!

If we talk about Miles and Temps without knowing what we're talking about it's 100% confusing.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Don't read anything into the numbers other than what I said. I am not using the numbers to make any decisions. I am only saying that the oil temperature displayed in the AMG menu is in agreement with the temperature displayed in the scan tool (XENTRY, Creader, etc.) whereas the coolant temperature displayed in the AMG menu is about 17°F more than displayed in the scan tool. And as discussed several days ago, the analog coolant temperature gauge will stay fixed on 90°C for a certain range of temperatures and only move when temperatures are approaching overheating.

w1s

Yo all. So how’s everyone doing w/o the solenoid?

I’m thinking of doing the same after my 7000km oil change interval.

W205C43PFL

Enjoying it, enjoying it a lot, transformed the car personally from experience but I don't have a V8 so there's that.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

What? You haven't read the previous 1907 posts on 77 pages to know how we're doing?

So, in 7 months and 5000 miles it's been great -- with both cars. In my previous posts, I stated it made my NA M276 3.5 liter feel like it was in Sport mode when actually in Economy mode, and fixed drivability issues I was having with a Stage 2 tune with my bi-turbo M276 3.0 liter. I now have great oil pressure from idle to redline. No stupid two-stage oil pressure surge. I feel very comfortable knowing I have more than barely sufficient oil to all of my lubricated parts, and that includes the HPFP which we often overlook.

Cifdig

On the m157 there's 2 sesnor for the coolant temp . The sensor on the head is about 20 degrees higher then the temp sensor on the thermostat . When logging and doing my 60-130 runs I pay attention to the cylinder head coolant temp as that's more important to me.

zk2004mb

So which one is showing in the dash? The cylinder head one?

S-Prihadi

On the thermostat is R48 heater for thermostat to open up below 90 Celsius when ECM decided so, it is not the Engine coolant temperature sensor B11/4.
When I first saw it I too thought R48 was the coolant temp sensor, until I read the wiring diagram and WIS.









The signal to R48 is PMW, and we can read it as Duty Cyle in %.
But dumb azz Xentry programmer made the value as opposite value ( M276.8 ) , I don't know if on M278/M157 the way the data presented is the same opposite or not ?
I suspect it will be the same as the ECM family is the same.

If you see 0% in Xentry, that meant it is actually 100% power to R48 heater element.
If 100% on Xentry, it is actually OFF, no power to R48 heater element.
So becareful when testing R48 using only Xentry and without a Duty Cyle meter and volt meter.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

LOL! Not to mention lower manufacturing costs! Must have been written by a politician staff writer. I love the way bad decisions are made to sound positive, just like the justification for the two-stage oil pump. "By amputating your legs, you no longer need to buy slacks, socks or shoes and will save money."

kevm14

I just did some data logging and did notice the Xentry coolant temp is higher than the dash. I didn't specifically try to produce both temps so either the dash is some other like block outlet temp and Xentry is cylinder head temp, OR the dash is faked. By dash I mean the AMG gauge display, not the needle.

CaliBenzDriver

It reads well....


"optimum cooling yields engine performance"... yes it surely does!

Jittery cam timing de-tunes performance.

kevm14

I did some fun Xentry playing around this afternoon. I did also replace the upper PCV hose that Surya talked about on another thread. Drivability is good even hot but it is too early to call this $32 pipe as the fix. However I had no low rpm surging even with oil temps over 200 degrees. I did NOT replace my boost control solenoid as I wanted to control variables. I may just keep it on the shelf for a while.

I also data logged cam adjuster control. Xentry seems to let you data log 120 seconds at a time so I did two 120 second data logs and plotted them in Excel. Some interesting stuff in here but it's unclear what the conclusion is other than everything is working properly. I performed a number of bidirectional tests and of course it passed everything.

Within each of the 2 Excel files are 4 plots. Each one has:
1) Left intake and exhaust commanded vs actual, plus rpm
2) Right intake and exhaust commanded vs actual, plus rpm
3) Left cam position deltas, plus rpm (my calc with the data)
4) Right cam position deltas, plus rpm (my calc with the data)

And like I said I have this across 2 spreadsheets with a little different driving conditions just to get more data points before looking at random deviations and jumping to conclusions.

I will present each data capture but just know that these two captures were done within 10-15 minutes of each other, within the same ignition cycle, fully warmed up.

Reminder: the car presented excellent drivability for all of this. No problems that I could detect.






And now the same thing 10-15 minutes later.

CaliBenzDriver

Thank you for gathering fresh data with 5w40 MOD-2.0, right?

Where "left" means bank-1, with your twin HPFP, true?
We can forget about easy-life Bank-2.
As long as we can meet the harshest B1 conditions, B2 will mirror.


Your delta calculation is commanded "electro-magnets" vs. actual "CPS", yes?

Meaning this shows actual camshaft positioning errors.

The cam positioning is a simple learned look-up map. Not super accurate reactive match.
Like 1200rpm maps into x% duty cycle. When the delta error is significant, ECU learns and correct its mapped data lookup little by little OVER PERIOD OF TIME (Approx. 500 to 1kMi).

This is why viscosity change is not automatically well tolerated right away but over time yes.
Exact same thing is true between warm oil and burning hot thin oil: there's a hot oil viscosity delta the ECU DISLIKES because that correction is unaccounted/ignored by ECU --> Hence more stable temps give us minimal delta errors. Where cam errors are indeed the timing errors that cost us lower performance.

(FYI: When you tweak everything in the right direction, the ECU delivers incremental transformation for strong honest rich combustions the ECU does not trim down -25).

​​​​​

+++ I don't grasp the difference between "15mn before vs. 15mn later" ???


B1+2 positioning errors

It seems like these graphs are the interesting ones with tall error spikes that ECU doesn't really like.

This cam topic is important to us because of HPFP timings.

kevm14

Not MOD 2.0. Still just running Molygen 5W-40. I replaced that upper PCV pipe and drivability today has been great even hot but I need to do more driving and commuting.

Left and right is from the driver's seat. I don't remember which side bank 1 is. Don't I have one HPFP per bank, not two on one bank?

Calc is commanded vs actual yes. Gives a picture of how they react to what the computer is asking for in relation to RPM and changes to RPM.

These were two 120 second data logs with Xentry about 10-15 minutes apart from each other. Fully warmed up coolant and oil for both. What I could do is try to get some data at 120F oil and see if the adjusters are somehow more responsive or more accurate. But like I keep saying, even hot it was great today. Not sure if it was that PCV pipe or just the fact that this is intermittent. The theory with the PCV pipe is that it is connected to the vacuum pump and if a check valve was iffy (there are two on it), it could impact boost control. I am leaning more toward boost control if the issue happens again, rather than cam timing. Therefore I'm not thinking I need to rush out and do 5W-50. What I would like to do is find an API SP 5W-40 that I want to run. Guess I could try Motul...

Vacuum pipe: 212-430-05-29-64

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40 is SP rated. (That’s the 100 quart jug!)

CaliBenzDriver

Castrol is BP's 5W40 SP

Searching for any good "10W-40 SP" to quit blending heavy 15w50...

I'll enjoy the difference and can always "boost it" if/when it begins smoking.

- 15w40 likely not needed unless in AZ, TX, FL Jakarta.


10w40 (non-diesel additives)

"SN+ exceeds SP..." promising marketing

I hear Mobile-1 has a matching non high-mileage 10w40 candidate oil.

Our ECU is not friendly to viscosity change. I think its poor at it!
We have to avoid or minimize these changes (just like solenoid MOD weekend trial... REALLY BAD IDEA that packs chaos without good).

You guys are starting to get itchy fingers like Master Surya does - You realize this whole topic is potent with cold response on sealed cylinders becoming super touchy.
We are not struggling with lag, burnt sensors and high blow-by leaks - Happy with MOD1

We just need to provide ECU the specific setup it wants as tested, not yet measured. Lets get more power and keep hear down.... with oil. Dial your own limits by preference. No hair splitting necessary

We have the opportunity to engineer our own monkey tune like old-fashioned grand'pas...
with three letters: O I L

Transformation hidden in plane sight by low pressure - Located because of Master Surya, dive buddy

gumsie

Does anybody know where the cable from the oil pressure solenoid actually routs to/through?

I'm thinking that I can find somewhere else and put in a switch or plug and socket to enable me to connect and disconnect as I see fit.

Thanks.

juanmor40

The current wisdom is that once disconnected for a while , you never connect it back to prevent a possible catastrophic engine damage since we have no clue if something is accumulating in that area

gumsie

I see, I'm fine with that but there are tow other circumstances that I wanted to consider?
1. I go to the dealer, (I do that from time to time as I think if you don't have a workshop or a trusted indie they do find other bits that you cannot really address/see without a lift), and I wanted to just make it 'normal' for that visit..
2. During the phase after I had just made the mod, I wanted to be able to reconnect it to be able to more easily compare. I thought I might get into that mindset where I think it feels quieter/faster/smoother etc when it actually isn't.

Thoughts?

W205C43PFL

1. Buy a oil pump solenoid and connect it externally to the harness then ziptie it to somewhere safe, then you won't have the code. Or alternatively have the code coded out but this is not easy and I am not sure how. https://mbworld.org/forums/w212-amg/...ml#post8939117

2. It is definitely quieter and smoother, I wouldn't say faster but the gas pedal is more reactive.