RIP 2018 E63 - Lemon Law Buyback Completed
#76
Well, it's finally happened. My first CEL this morning! Car was shaking under mild acceleration and basically had lost power. I stopped at a light, shut down, and then restarted the engine .The CEL went away. Drove to the dealer, read out the ME codes as misfire on cylinders 1 and 6! Now what? The dealer wants the car for a week to run diagnostics but didn't sound too hopeful resolving. The mileage on the car is 7699, production date is 11/17 3rd decade. Obviously cylinders 1 and 6 were not firing at all until I restarted the engine, so this was not just a random misfire. I suppose that that injectors for those cylinders were shut down for the duration to prevent fuel wash of the cylinder walls.
As far as the injectors go, following BMW's previous mess with the N63 I learned that there can be a dozen variants of the same injectors that are just so slightly different (and as ItalianJoe1 said above, you tell the computer which variant you have). In the N63 case BMW threw out the entire injection architecture with the N63TU, which is incompatible parts-wise. I bet that Mercedes uses different injectors in Europe and North America.
In turbo cars you could assume that the heat distribution could mess up specific cylinders, but this happens on cold engine, so no.
Which physical position do cylinders 1 and 6 sit in wrt front/back/left/right?
Last edited by squid23; 10-20-2018 at 12:30 PM.
#77
Sorry you had a bad experience but it is not a reason to boycott Mercedes. Mercedes doesn't have a monopoly on lemons.
Pick any other brand. and I will find you examples of lemon threads on boards like this.
2018 M5
https://f90.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...ighlight=lemon
2015 M5
https://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1179818
2017 Panamera
https://www.macanforum.com/forum/oth...-panamera.html
Audi A7
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a7-...-back-2902588/
Pick any other brand. and I will find you examples of lemon threads on boards like this.
2018 M5
https://f90.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...ighlight=lemon
2015 M5
https://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1179818
2017 Panamera
https://www.macanforum.com/forum/oth...-panamera.html
Audi A7
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a7-...-back-2902588/
#78
Say what? What do they expect leasers to do when they have to get out, e.g. moving to a different country or losing their job?
#79
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2024 AMG EQE SUV , 2021 E63S Wagon - gone, 2018 E63S Sedan - gone
Since it seems to be the same cylinders (1 and 6) for several people I suspect that this might have to do with an electrostatic issue with the wiring to those cylinders. If you lay down wires inside metal casings you always end up with an interesting set of physical properties that modify the shape of impulses on those wires.
As far as the injectors go, following BMW's previous mess with the N63 I learned that there can be a dozen variants of the same injectors that are just so slightly different (and as ItalianJoe1 said above, you tell the computer which variant you have). In the N63 case BMW threw out the entire injection architecture with the N63TU, which is incompatible parts-wise.
In turbo cars you could assume that the heat distribution could mess up specific cylinders, but this happens on cold engine, so no.
Which physical position do cylinders 1 and 6 sit in wrt front/back/left/right?
As far as the injectors go, following BMW's previous mess with the N63 I learned that there can be a dozen variants of the same injectors that are just so slightly different (and as ItalianJoe1 said above, you tell the computer which variant you have). In the N63 case BMW threw out the entire injection architecture with the N63TU, which is incompatible parts-wise.
In turbo cars you could assume that the heat distribution could mess up specific cylinders, but this happens on cold engine, so no.
Which physical position do cylinders 1 and 6 sit in wrt front/back/left/right?
#80
The CEL was reset several days ago, but came back on within 48 hours. Occasionally the engine will startup vibrating with limited power, but restarting the engine always seems to "fix" the issue for that start. I've contacted MBUSA and expressed my displeasure at the lack of a "fix" (software or otherwise) for a problem that has been reported by various people since July, 2018. The dealer, of course, wants the car into the shop for diagnostic purposes (for at least 1 week), but can offer no solution at this time. I don't think that this is a wiring issue. More likely it is a pressure issue with the injector pumps on either side of the engine (cylinders 1 and 6 are on opposite sides). I'm hoping that there might be an experimental software correction in the near future. Otherwise, this car is heading to the "buy back ranch". Disappointing for certain.
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HBerman (10-20-2018)
#81
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2024 AMG EQE SUV , 2021 E63S Wagon - gone, 2018 E63S Sedan - gone
No, the entry point on the rails doesn't put #6 at the end from the pump, if it was the case you'd have it on both front cyls. Besides, fluid dynamics don't agree with only one cyl not receiving enough flow/pressure in such a small space with such a high pressure. All the fault codes do not show dropping fuel pressure, that's a well known issue on the 271 engine but has been largely absent on the 276/28 and 274, or the new engines.
#82
Don’t give up hope
Over a 1,000 mile and one month and no more cel.
I drive in comfort mode in city traffic and let the engine start stop and run in 4 cylinder mode. I also will drive in sport mode when entering a highway etc.
My guess is that they don’t want to change the fuel injectors because of labor cost but if done it addresses the issue. They had the car for 28 and after two weeks told MB that I would lemon the car if I had to. I would like to believe the complaints cause MB to focus and fix the issue.
I drive in comfort mode in city traffic and let the engine start stop and run in 4 cylinder mode. I also will drive in sport mode when entering a highway etc.
My guess is that they don’t want to change the fuel injectors because of labor cost but if done it addresses the issue. They had the car for 28 and after two weeks told MB that I would lemon the car if I had to. I would like to believe the complaints cause MB to focus and fix the issue.
#83
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2024 AMG EQE SUV , 2021 E63S Wagon - gone, 2018 E63S Sedan - gone
Over a 1,000 mile and one month and no more cel.
I drive in comfort mode in city traffic and let the engine start stop and run in 4 cylinder mode. I also will drive in sport mode when entering a highway etc.
My guess is that they don’t want to change the fuel injectors because of labor cost but if done it addresses the issue. They had the car for 28 and after two weeks told MB that I would lemon the car if I had to. I would like to believe the complaints cause MB to focus and fix the issue.
I drive in comfort mode in city traffic and let the engine start stop and run in 4 cylinder mode. I also will drive in sport mode when entering a highway etc.
My guess is that they don’t want to change the fuel injectors because of labor cost but if done it addresses the issue. They had the car for 28 and after two weeks told MB that I would lemon the car if I had to. I would like to believe the complaints cause MB to focus and fix the issue.
#85
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2024 AMG EQE SUV , 2021 E63S Wagon - gone, 2018 E63S Sedan - gone
Thanks. My issue started at 7699 miles and continues. I've seen other postings with mileage around the number or exceeding that. I would assume that a CEL issue at 700 miles would be an initial parts failure. Something that shows up at 7000+ miles might be a design flaw in which case numerous failures could be expected as the cars age in use. I'm still in the camp of a software issue because when the car is restarted, the engine runs normally. That doesn't sound like a parts issue to me.
Last edited by HBerman; 10-20-2018 at 01:57 PM.
#86
Thanks. My issue started at 7699 miles and continues. I've seen other postings with mileage around the number or exceeding that. I would assume that a CEL issue at 700 miles would be a initial parts failure. Something that show up at 7000+ miles might be a design flaw in which case numerous failures could be expected as the cars age in use. I'm still in the camp of a software issue because when the car is restarted, the engine runs normally. That doesn't sound like a parts issue to me.
#87
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AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
I think the point is that owners are frustrated because of slow timing and lack of feedback from MB. Without sufficient information, everything else is conjecture. Neither you or I have enough information to make these statements.
Unless somebody starts a list with VIN numbers and build dates, these threads doesn't deliver any indication of a broader issue. Does it impact 50 cars? 500? Nobody knows.
This is nothing like BMW's engine issues with carbon build-up and stretched timing chains. It seems more like the F90 early recall that required a software update where engines would shut down anywhere between the day of delivery to 1000 miles.
At Bimmerpost forum, people reported their car information and it was easy to see just how pervasive the issue was in terms of volume. BMW was on the ball and addressed the issue quickly but I think it was likely easier to fix if every car fails than just a certain percentage...
Last edited by Wolfman; 10-20-2018 at 06:08 PM.
#88
Strictly my personal opinion here:
I think it's a software logic issue that makes misfire detection too sensitive. When the car sees a cylinder not firing properly it shuts it down to prevent catalyst damage and triggers the light. This is why some people feel shaking and rough running that goes away after a restart, others don't feel it just get a CEL, it's all about frequency of the misfire faults. You can watch the misfire counter of a running engine and see them pop up randomly around the engine, mostly during very light throttle, slow speed, parking lot style driving. I believe they have the injection pulses so small at those times, in some situations the cyl barely fires and the M/E registers it as a misfire even though it's not. The fact that most of the cars that have had injectors replaced got "better" makes me think it's a stack up of tolerances, as each injector has a coding # on it and we have to perform programming for injector quantity adjustment whenever we replace one, they are supposedly very accurate. They can be activated for just a couple mS, multiple times per piston stroke and DI motors only inject during the late intake/compression stroke, so you have a very small window. I feel, if they could back down the misfire detection logic to be slightly less sensitive, or at least in the conditions when it seems to happen (haven't seen any issues at full throttle or during aggressive driving that would indicate a mechanical problem), it would be fixed.
The engineering TIPS document I posted and some of the other tech topics I've seen make it seem as if every car with misfires has an air leak somewhere. I just can't believe, especially on a system with no MAF using only a SD based tuning logic, that the car can't handle the tiniest leak at a V band clamp or something and it sets misfire codes and acts up like that. Until they revise the docs and tell us what they've decided to do to fix all the cars, I don't know what else to say. As techs, we are limited in our ability to even see the data, much less understand it. We just want to fix the cars and keep the customers happy. Daimler and AMG aren't making it easy at the moment.
I think it's a software logic issue that makes misfire detection too sensitive. When the car sees a cylinder not firing properly it shuts it down to prevent catalyst damage and triggers the light. This is why some people feel shaking and rough running that goes away after a restart, others don't feel it just get a CEL, it's all about frequency of the misfire faults. You can watch the misfire counter of a running engine and see them pop up randomly around the engine, mostly during very light throttle, slow speed, parking lot style driving. I believe they have the injection pulses so small at those times, in some situations the cyl barely fires and the M/E registers it as a misfire even though it's not. The fact that most of the cars that have had injectors replaced got "better" makes me think it's a stack up of tolerances, as each injector has a coding # on it and we have to perform programming for injector quantity adjustment whenever we replace one, they are supposedly very accurate. They can be activated for just a couple mS, multiple times per piston stroke and DI motors only inject during the late intake/compression stroke, so you have a very small window. I feel, if they could back down the misfire detection logic to be slightly less sensitive, or at least in the conditions when it seems to happen (haven't seen any issues at full throttle or during aggressive driving that would indicate a mechanical problem), it would be fixed.
The engineering TIPS document I posted and some of the other tech topics I've seen make it seem as if every car with misfires has an air leak somewhere. I just can't believe, especially on a system with no MAF using only a SD based tuning logic, that the car can't handle the tiniest leak at a V band clamp or something and it sets misfire codes and acts up like that. Until they revise the docs and tell us what they've decided to do to fix all the cars, I don't know what else to say. As techs, we are limited in our ability to even see the data, much less understand it. We just want to fix the cars and keep the customers happy. Daimler and AMG aren't making it easy at the moment.
#89
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2024 AMG EQE SUV , 2021 E63S Wagon - gone, 2018 E63S Sedan - gone
To a certain extent this is all software issues. A misfire results in higher emission and after the VW D hoax I am sure the EPA is watching all the German manufactures very close. I hope they resolve the problem but a little worried about cel when the car is four years old and won’t pass state inspection.
#90
My E63S is less than 1 year old and is exhibiting a CEL. Fortunately, the technician was able to clear the CEL before he ran the NC inspection test and the car passed. The CEL went on again the next day. I'm assuming that AMG and MB are working on a permanent fix, but my SA has not informed me that there is a specific solution for correction. Until then, I drive around with the CEL.
#91
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What he did was to clear the codes in the ME. The light went off when I restarted the engine before I got to the dealer. NC law is the same as NYS for the CEL to he off for at least 24 hours.
#92
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2024 AMG EQE SUV , 2021 E63S Wagon - gone, 2018 E63S Sedan - gone
Has anyone with the CEL issue received further information regarding a "fix"? My SA reset the CEL again with the OBD2 Scanner and told me to keep the ECO-Start disabled. Thus far, the CEL has not come on in the past week. Is there a connection?
#93
I am sure the stop starts may increase the likelihood of a misfire. That said it has been two months since they replaced the fuel injectors and no problems. I mainly run in comfort mode and allow start stops.
#94
I’ve not received any further info.
Its been a couple weeks since the car was repaired and all is well so far, no new CELs.
I routinely leave the ECO-start enabled. But the misfires and CEL typically happened shortly after a cold start and before I got to a stop light/sign where the car would normally turn off. Still, worth a try.
Its been a couple weeks since the car was repaired and all is well so far, no new CELs.
I routinely leave the ECO-start enabled. But the misfires and CEL typically happened shortly after a cold start and before I got to a stop light/sign where the car would normally turn off. Still, worth a try.
#97
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2024 AMG EQE SUV , 2021 E63S Wagon - gone, 2018 E63S Sedan - gone
Which injectors? Cylinders 1, 6 and another.? Most of the CEL reports have cylinders 1and 6 as the reported misfires. I had my CEL reset a week ago, not using Eco--start, and thus far it's been ok. I am still convinced that it is a software glitch.