Throttle lift oversteer
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From: NYC
2007 C280 4Matic
Throttle lift oversteer
I has it.
Its not so bad since I changed to 17's but if I get spirited on a sweeper then take my foot off the gas the car likes to rotate.
Any quick solutions? For throttle lift oversteer on a 4matic?
Its not so bad since I changed to 17's but if I get spirited on a sweeper then take my foot off the gas the car likes to rotate.
Any quick solutions? For throttle lift oversteer on a 4matic?
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From: Camas, WA
2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
Not a whole lot that can be done about it. Either counter-steer, or get back on the throttle a bit, or train yourself to slowly roll off the throttle. If you are so inclined a functional rear spoiler could help, but would ruin the aesthetics of the car.
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Go to a track or a parking lot and turn off esp and learn how to react when the rear end begins to step out.
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From: Phoenix AZ & Cayucos CA
’27 AMG SL55(ordered), ‘23 EQS 580 SUV, ‘19 AMG E53 Cpe, ‘48 Willys Jeepster
Try trail braking where you heel-and-toe gradually from throttle to brake by rolling your foot over. It's a bit harder on brakes but it keeps the suspension loaded so you don't get the geometry changes that add to oversteer.
Last edited by lkfoster; Sep 7, 2010 at 05:49 PM. Reason: Typo
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Fit a more stiff anti roll bar to the front. Reverse applies if you stiffen the rear.
Be happy! nice to have a Benz that is not a terminal understeerer. But then you have to jack up your driving much like with a BMW - or it will snap out on you. Never come off the throttle quickly. Keep the power on. You will only loose control on trailing throttle. Stay off brakes!
Is that on DWS's?
Be happy! nice to have a Benz that is not a terminal understeerer. But then you have to jack up your driving much like with a BMW - or it will snap out on you. Never come off the throttle quickly. Keep the power on. You will only loose control on trailing throttle. Stay off brakes!
Is that on DWS's?
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Sep 7, 2010 at 06:38 PM.
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
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From: Corona, CA
03 g35 coupe...........02 c32 Sold
sounds like your just applying too much throttle into the turn since these cars are designed stock to understeer at the limit, unless you changed your suspension to aftermarket.
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Thread Starter
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From: NYC
2007 C280 4Matic
It is with the DWS. The car used to be down right dangerous with the factory rubber on.
Aside from changing the way I drive. Sometimes things happen that I can't foresee. I know very well what to do when the car acts up, I would just prefer if it didn't have to get back on the gas if someone is in front of me on a long sweeper. (this hasn't happened yet but I would prefer to be safe). The ESP will step in before anything bad happens I think, but I do hold a few degrees of slide even with the ESP on. I really dont want to test if its my driving or the ESP saving the day.
What can I do with the car to make it more balanced? I was thinking a little toe-in on the rear. Or perhaps new bushings.
Aside from changing the way I drive. Sometimes things happen that I can't foresee. I know very well what to do when the car acts up, I would just prefer if it didn't have to get back on the gas if someone is in front of me on a long sweeper. (this hasn't happened yet but I would prefer to be safe). The ESP will step in before anything bad happens I think, but I do hold a few degrees of slide even with the ESP on. I really dont want to test if its my driving or the ESP saving the day.
What can I do with the car to make it more balanced? I was thinking a little toe-in on the rear. Or perhaps new bushings.
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From: Marina Del Rey,Ca.
06' BMW M3
....it's not really a "spirited" sweeper if you're lifting your foot now is it?....
j/kStock suspension?
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
It is with the DWS. The car used to be down right dangerous with the factory rubber on.
Aside from changing the way I drive. Sometimes things happen that I can't foresee. I know very well what to do when the car acts up, I would just prefer if it didn't have to get back on the gas if someone is in front of me on a long sweeper. (this hasn't happened yet but I would prefer to be safe). The ESP will step in before anything bad happens I think, but I do hold a few degrees of slide even with the ESP on. I really dont want to test if its my driving or the ESP saving the day.
What can I do with the car to make it more balanced? I was thinking a little toe-in on the rear. Or perhaps new bushings.
Aside from changing the way I drive. Sometimes things happen that I can't foresee. I know very well what to do when the car acts up, I would just prefer if it didn't have to get back on the gas if someone is in front of me on a long sweeper. (this hasn't happened yet but I would prefer to be safe). The ESP will step in before anything bad happens I think, but I do hold a few degrees of slide even with the ESP on. I really dont want to test if its my driving or the ESP saving the day.
What can I do with the car to make it more balanced? I was thinking a little toe-in on the rear. Or perhaps new bushings.
You already have toe-in on the rear.
I know people on this forum love the DWS but I think it's handling capabilities are limited when compared with premium summer tyres. You obviously need A/S tyres. I would love to know what you would think of Michelin PS2 A/S Plus tyres. splinter has a lot of poke in his C32 on them & suffers no wayward handling. He runs Koni Yellows & of course has AMG sways.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Sep 7, 2010 at 11:17 PM.
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I get no such handling abnormalities with my DWS tires and stock Sport suspension. I wouldn't expect the 4Matic sedan to be on the same level as a Sport regardless of rubber.
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
The W204 guys find the DWS a little worrying in the handling stakes. If Zero is suffering rear end snap out he is driving at the limit. A better tyre will really show it's prowess at the limit.
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From: NYC
2007 C280 4Matic
Stick an AMG or better front sway bar on the car. Increase the rubber size on the rear within reason. Going too far will have the opposite effect because you need a specific weight per contact patch for optimum handling. Ensure all suspension components & bushings are within spec. The C 280 is not that potent. What mileage is on the car?
You already have toe-in on the rear.
I know people on this forum love the DWS but I think it's handling capabilities are limited when compared with premium summer tyres. You obviously need A/S tyres. I would love to know what you would think of Michelin PS2 A/S Plus tyres. splinter has a lot of poke in his C32 on them & suffers no wayward handling. He runs Koni Yellows & of course has AMG sways.
You already have toe-in on the rear.
I know people on this forum love the DWS but I think it's handling capabilities are limited when compared with premium summer tyres. You obviously need A/S tyres. I would love to know what you would think of Michelin PS2 A/S Plus tyres. splinter has a lot of poke in his C32 on them & suffers no wayward handling. He runs Koni Yellows & of course has AMG sways.
In the short term I want to change up the rear bushings to get the car more predictable. Glyn do you have the part number to the older stiffer bushings?
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From: Pasadena, CA
2002 C230K, 2013 BMW 328, 2015 BMW X5
I am having a tough time believing this.
ESP is so intrusive on these cars.
Are you sure you are not braking at the point of lift? As in...you stayed on the throttle too long, then have to input heavier braking? When this happens you are then putting the requirements of traction to the front tires. Load on the front = lightened rear and squirrely step out.
ESP is so intrusive on these cars.
Are you sure you are not braking at the point of lift? As in...you stayed on the throttle too long, then have to input heavier braking? When this happens you are then putting the requirements of traction to the front tires. Load on the front = lightened rear and squirrely step out.
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From: Phoenix AZ & Cayucos CA
’27 AMG SL55(ordered), ‘23 EQS 580 SUV, ‘19 AMG E53 Cpe, ‘48 Willys Jeepster
My 8-cylinder AMG has 23mm front and 17mm rear swaybars.
Not to hijack the thread, but has anybody tried the Koni FSD shocks? I'm looking to tighten the handling up bit over the OEM dampers.
Not to hijack the thread, but has anybody tried the Koni FSD shocks? I'm looking to tighten the handling up bit over the OEM dampers.
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From: Orange County, CA
GMC - Miata - Trek - P-Car
I am having a tough time believing this.
ESP is so intrusive on these cars.
Are you sure you are not braking at the point of lift? As in...you stayed on the throttle too long, then have to input heavier braking? When this happens you are then putting the requirements of traction to the front tires. Load on the front = lightened rear and squirrely step out.
ESP is so intrusive on these cars.
Are you sure you are not braking at the point of lift? As in...you stayed on the throttle too long, then have to input heavier braking? When this happens you are then putting the requirements of traction to the front tires. Load on the front = lightened rear and squirrely step out.
Have you ever driven an early Porsche? Lift-throttle rotation personified. Tail end comes around but quick.
Getting off of it during mid-corner transfers load (and traction, within reason) towards the front. Our IRS has some ghastly machinations (positive camber and reduced toe) as it cycles through the limit of its rebound travel. No revelation there.
Only 4-Matic’s I’ve driven never exceeded ~70% lateral load capabilities in SoCal’s relatively mild clime.
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From: NYC
2007 C280 4Matic
I am having a tough time believing this.
ESP is so intrusive on these cars.
Are you sure you are not braking at the point of lift? As in...you stayed on the throttle too long, then have to input heavier braking? When this happens you are then putting the requirements of traction to the front tires. Load on the front = lightened rear and squirrely step out.
ESP is so intrusive on these cars.
Are you sure you are not braking at the point of lift? As in...you stayed on the throttle too long, then have to input heavier braking? When this happens you are then putting the requirements of traction to the front tires. Load on the front = lightened rear and squirrely step out.
No braking, its not my style. I will admit that I do panic a bit when I get way too deep too fast into a turn, over correct, and pull off the gas entirely. I never said I was a skilled driver. Its why I want to fix this problem, to idiot proof this car from myself.
When it happens I can feel the weight transfer to the front like the cars just about to plough then the rear tires start squealing if I have the ESP on I get a very slight slip angle and a blinking triangle. If I have it off its much more terrifying. Worst part is if the ESP is on my throttle input is very delayed so the car keeps doing what its doing and I get no power.
EDIT: Remember on a 4matic the front wheels engine brake too. This is no good for weight transfer.
Last edited by zerocover; Sep 8, 2010 at 12:32 AM.
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From: Pasadena, CA
2002 C230K, 2013 BMW 328, 2015 BMW X5
No braking, its not my style. I will admit that I do panic a bit when I get way too deep too fast into a turn, over correct, and pull off the gas entirely. I never said I was a skilled driver. Its why I want to fix this problem, to idiot proof this car from myself.
When it happens I can feel the weight transfer to the front like the cars just about to plough then the rear tires start squealing if I have the ESP on I get a very slight slip angle and a blinking triangle. If I have it off its much more terrifying. Worst part is if the ESP is on my throttle input is very delayed so the car keeps doing what its doing and I get no power.
EDIT: Remember on a 4matic the front wheels engine brake too. This is no good for weight transfer.
When it happens I can feel the weight transfer to the front like the cars just about to plough then the rear tires start squealing if I have the ESP on I get a very slight slip angle and a blinking triangle. If I have it off its much more terrifying. Worst part is if the ESP is on my throttle input is very delayed so the car keeps doing what its doing and I get no power.
EDIT: Remember on a 4matic the front wheels engine brake too. This is no good for weight transfer.
If you ever are in over your head, turn in the direction of your tail to recover, but please don't be there on a public road.
I'm not exactly seeming to be safe here, but I suprise a number of drivers taking sweeping turns with speed. It always seems to go like this. They stay on the gas, then brake hard, I stay smooth and rocket past as they seek to regain balance, and then fight to get back on the gas. The ones with the horsepower either understeer or oversteer. If I am in my Fiat, they never had a chance.
I have learned, if they have an SCCA or NASA sticker, I'm in over my head.
Ed
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From: Corona, CA
03 g35 coupe...........02 c32 Sold
i agree with seacoupe on a lot of his points. Understeer or oversteer occurs when the tires loses traction going into a corner. If your driving normally, even crappy chinese tires won't make the car go into major oversteer or understeer.
But more throttle should push more of the weight to the rear then the front. You get more weight to the front when you brake or trail brake. Trail braking in these cars, makes these w203's turn like crap and kills your front tires a lot more quickly in a track environment.
But more throttle should push more of the weight to the rear then the front. You get more weight to the front when you brake or trail brake. Trail braking in these cars, makes these w203's turn like crap and kills your front tires a lot more quickly in a track environment.
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From: Camas, WA
2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
Stick an AMG or better front sway bar on the car. Increase the rubber size on the rear within reason. Going too far will have the opposite effect because you need a specific weight per contact patch for optimum handling. Ensure all suspension components & bushings are within spec. The C 280 is not that potent. What mileage is on the car?
You already have toe-in on the rear.
I know people on this forum love the DWS but I think it's handling capabilities are limited when compared with premium summer tyres. You obviously need A/S tyres. I would love to know what you would think of Michelin PS2 A/S Plus tyres. splinter has a lot of poke in his C32 on them & suffers no wayward handling. He runs Koni Yellows & of course has AMG sways.
You already have toe-in on the rear.
I know people on this forum love the DWS but I think it's handling capabilities are limited when compared with premium summer tyres. You obviously need A/S tyres. I would love to know what you would think of Michelin PS2 A/S Plus tyres. splinter has a lot of poke in his C32 on them & suffers no wayward handling. He runs Koni Yellows & of course has AMG sways.
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From: Isla Verde, Puerto Rico
SRT-6
Smooth really is the key. I was having trouble carrying speed into the corners but it was because I was lifting off the brakes suddenly and unloading the front tires. Now I lift slower and trail brake if necessary and the nose stays planted. When I had a loose condition (yeah, I managed to screw things up both ways) it was because I was running no toe in the rear, too much negative camber and lowered the back of the car too much. Now I have 1/8" total toe in, -1º negative camber in the rear and my car is stable. Different cars but similar changes have similar effects. Even a great car will spin if you lift suddenly, brake suddenly or accelerate suddenly near the grip limits. Just don't do those things or keep a larger margin for error.
Les
Les
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Keep ESP on. If you're having stability problems and are trying to learn about the limits it would be best to have that safety net.
John - yeah the DWS tires were very capable. I was able to take the Benz places in the (rare) snow/ice here that it should not have been able to go.
John - yeah the DWS tires were very capable. I was able to take the Benz places in the (rare) snow/ice here that it should not have been able to go.
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From: NYC
2007 C280 4Matic
In actuallity, smooth is way faster. I'd slow it down a bit. No more late braking and start to learn apex points and throttle inputs. Anyone can mash a throttle, anyone can mash the brakes. Combining them takes the know how.
If you ever are in over your head, turn in the direction of your tail to recover, but please don't be there on a public road.
I'm not exactly seeming to be safe here, but I suprise a number of drivers taking sweeping turns with speed. It always seems to go like this. They stay on the gas, then brake hard, I stay smooth and rocket past as they seek to regain balance, and then fight to get back on the gas. The ones with the horsepower either understeer or oversteer. If I am in my Fiat, they never had a chance.
I have learned, if they have an SCCA or NASA sticker, I'm in over my head.
Ed
If you ever are in over your head, turn in the direction of your tail to recover, but please don't be there on a public road.
I'm not exactly seeming to be safe here, but I suprise a number of drivers taking sweeping turns with speed. It always seems to go like this. They stay on the gas, then brake hard, I stay smooth and rocket past as they seek to regain balance, and then fight to get back on the gas. The ones with the horsepower either understeer or oversteer. If I am in my Fiat, they never had a chance.
I have learned, if they have an SCCA or NASA sticker, I'm in over my head.
Ed
My fear is that I'll get in over my head on a long sweeper doing 60+mph, only to find say a minivan full of nuns stopped in the middle of the street. If the car was understeering I would slam the brakes and stop no problem. However if I slam the brakes in this condition the back end would slip out to say hello, if not at the very least my braking distance is greatly increased.
These aren't track speeds we're talking about I took the car out last night and can get the rear squirrelly above 45 mph on a kind of tight turn. Of note this car will not understeer, and yes I've tried my hardest. Which is why I believe it to be a suspension problem and not something designed into the car. Last time I was at the dealer they found no problems but I've never had a dealer that did find a suspension problem (even when I had a strut that was gushing fluid, I had to force them to put the car on a lift because no one felt a problem)
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From: Camas, WA
2007 C230SS; 2014 ML350 BT
Not to sound like an ***, but why not just tone down your aggressive driving a little bit. 
Your car handles much different than most of the other W203's on here being a 4-matic. You have always complained about oversteer and no understeer, but the rest of us have the opposite problem. I agree with Ed, that it is tough to believe because ESP is extremely intrusive, and again, most of us have the opposite experience as you.
Have you ever had wheel alignment done? I would suggest you start there. I would find a good shop that specializes in high end/track cars and doesn't just rely on the machine and say, "it's in spec". A meticulous alignment can do wonders for a car. Hell, if you are ever on the west coast, I would do the alignment for you. The other thing a good alignment tech will do, is inspect the suspension for any worn, bent or suspect components. You may in fact have a suspension problem that they can uncover for you.
Your car handles much different than most of the other W203's on here being a 4-matic. You have always complained about oversteer and no understeer, but the rest of us have the opposite problem. I agree with Ed, that it is tough to believe because ESP is extremely intrusive, and again, most of us have the opposite experience as you.
Have you ever had wheel alignment done? I would suggest you start there. I would find a good shop that specializes in high end/track cars and doesn't just rely on the machine and say, "it's in spec". A meticulous alignment can do wonders for a car. Hell, if you are ever on the west coast, I would do the alignment for you. The other thing a good alignment tech will do, is inspect the suspension for any worn, bent or suspect components. You may in fact have a suspension problem that they can uncover for you.
I understand where you guys are coming from. But this is not a track environment I'm talking about.
My fear is that I'll get in over my head on a long sweeper doing 60+mph, only to find say a minivan full of nuns stopped in the middle of the street. If the car was understeering I would slam the brakes and stop no problem. However if I slam the brakes in this condition the back end would slip out to say hello, if not at the very least my braking distance is greatly increased.
These aren't track speeds we're talking about I took the car out last night and can get the rear squirrelly above 45 mph on a kind of tight turn. Of note this car will not understeer, and yes I've tried my hardest. Which is why I believe it to be a suspension problem and not something designed into the car. Last time I was at the dealer they found no problems but I've never had a dealer that did find a suspension problem (even when I had a strut that was gushing fluid, I had to force them to put the car on a lift because no one felt a problem)
My fear is that I'll get in over my head on a long sweeper doing 60+mph, only to find say a minivan full of nuns stopped in the middle of the street. If the car was understeering I would slam the brakes and stop no problem. However if I slam the brakes in this condition the back end would slip out to say hello, if not at the very least my braking distance is greatly increased.
These aren't track speeds we're talking about I took the car out last night and can get the rear squirrelly above 45 mph on a kind of tight turn. Of note this car will not understeer, and yes I've tried my hardest. Which is why I believe it to be a suspension problem and not something designed into the car. Last time I was at the dealer they found no problems but I've never had a dealer that did find a suspension problem (even when I had a strut that was gushing fluid, I had to force them to put the car on a lift because no one felt a problem)
