Bobby Benzo

So heres a question that wasnt exactly quite clear with an answer in the forums about aftermarket subwoofers and amps. Can the SAM 12v power be used or is direct from battery absolutely necessary for amp power?

jcreal

Yes you can power it from the SAM... assuming you're not using a crazy power hunger amp(s) - However, it's still best to run power from the battery.. I ran it from the battery and used the wiring hole in the fuse box on the right to run the wire into the cabin (no drilling necessary).

Bobby Benzo

The install is complete. I put a 12 inch Rockford Fosgate P3 12" powered by an alpine 550w RMS amp ran power from the battery to the trunk. It definitely compliments the infiniti component upgrade.

peebking

I have the front speaker replaced from MB factory to focal 165krx2 both are 165mm speaker but I just sent my car to stereo shop to do it. I used audison bit ten for the processor and audison srx4 for the amp, the sound are at least 3 times better than factory's, I feel glad for this modification

Bobby Benzo

Sorry for the necro post but I have a question on the component install.
Would adding bass blockers to the tweeters, or even all the speakers be an added benefit. I do have a sub woofer installed in the trunk

Acapulco Bill

@Bobby Benzo: The component speakers such as the Infinity Kappa, Focals, etc. include sophisticated crossovers that attenuate the bass sent to the HF drivers, in the range of 18dB/octave.

The stock MB tweeters have a 3.3 uF 50V non-polarized capacitor, which in-series with the tweeter's voice coil, makes a 6 dB/octave high-pass filter (correct name for a "bass blocker"), which probably has a - 6dB point at around 2k Hz.

So there is no added benefit to insert a "bass blocker". Make sure your subwoofer is "in phase" and that the sub's low-pass filter is set to 150 Hz or so.

Acapulco Bill

While searching Crutchfield for speakers for another vehicle, I ran across this video which explains why the Infinity Kappa speakers are such a great upgrade, and also shows the components of both the coaxial and the 60.9 Kappa speakers. Just hit the blue circle to play the video.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_108609C..._60.9&skipvs=T

ghostbusters

Hi wirshad,

Pardon my newb-ness with audio related terms and whatnot, but are you suggesting that one adds anyone of those options on top of having the Kappa speakers?

Also, would you recommend that set up for the Audio 50 (Navi, no HK)?

Cheers .

hkmike

Acapulco Bill, I'm considering your suggested Boss subwoofer mounting strategy. But you and several others have now mentioned a resulting rear deck rattle. Have you been able to fix this issue?

Acapulco Bill

The rear deck has two layers and will require sandwiching in some rubber matting or Dynamat/Fatman as screwing in the sub underneath brings the layers in closer proximity.

However this is also an issue with in-the-trunk box subs also, the moving air has to go somewhere and the rear shelf should be isolated and damped anyway. Its a minor issue, although annoying if not resolved when the small sub is first mounted.

Acapulco Bill

@ghostbusters: The Infinity Kappa or other quality high-efficiency (read 95 dB/1 watt inout) speaker substitution is simple and inexpensive, the Kappas front and rear total around $200 from Amazon, a modest sum for the huge improvement.

If after doing this replacement and breaking-in the speakers for about 30 hours, the sound doesnt live up to your expectations, there are certainly more solutions (amps, subwoofers, DSP), all of these are far more expensive and easily can exceed an additional $1000.

Sincity

After researching, this looks like my next mod. I have a plain audio and no xenon C63.

SoCal208

First of all, I want to say "Thanks' to Bill, with his experience's ear (as the music conductor) & advices, answers my questions, I want to report what I get :
More than 3 months ago, an unfortunate accident totaled my dearly love 2000 E320 (I owned for more than 12 years, with only 78K miles, which I plan to run it to the junk yard). After settle with my insurance, I got on 2008 C350 Sport with P1 & P2, but not MM. The MB audio 20 sound below what I expect from MB (It sound worser than my old 2000 E320), I read many threads in BW & MBW, I spend time to read & reread this thread. I decide to follow Bill advice on Infinity Kappa component speakers. I ordered Infinity Kappa 60.9CS for the front & 62.9I for the rear (also 1200W power amp for the bass). After a few try, I gave up DIY, I get the pro do the installations for me (cost $120, I tip the installer $20 for lunch). It took him almost 3 hours to replace all the speakers & tweeters), he did a very good job. As advice by Bill, I run it over 40 hours (breaking-in) on the Infinity Kappa now, the sound is much, much better than the stock speakers & tweeters, I feel that I am satisfied with the bass (I play with different setting on radio & disk), until I am happy with the setting (I do not want to install the power amp for bass, I will return it). I drive the car everyday, running errand around town, the improvement of the sound make me very happy, I do not see the need more for bass. I find every excuse to take the car out for a drive..... Again, thanks Bill & expert on MBWorld for the better advises. Regards.

Acapulco Bill

Thanks, anytime, SoCal208, and for anyone else with pressing issues with the stock Audio20 system, I am at your service.

BASS - Many feel that the bass from the Infinity Kappas is weak. Actually it is properly there, just that since the Kappa woofers provide output with such low distortion, the bass is perceived as being missing. It is not, but most will like the bottom end provided by a self-amplified compact subwoofer. Bass is never the main dish on the musical menu, some however feel otherwise...

The science of Psychoacoustics explains why the bass from the Kappa installation appears to be missing: Nature is full of harmonic distortions, almost all natural distortions are of a 2nd order nature. Electronics and compression distortion such as MP3's and more horribly Bluetooth, contain 3rd order harmonic distortions.

A 2nd order harmonic distortion is what gives recognizable distinction to nearly all sounds. A pure sine-wave, having no harmonics, is indistinct from any source except for the distortions that the loudspeaker "adds" to it. When a loudspeaker (or bird, door hinge squeak, exhaust system, every human vocal chord producing one's voice) vibrates, they all, without exception, produce 2nd harmonic distortions. The level of each of these distortions - additions of energy at calculable frequencies - is what enables us, and even animals, to distinguish the source of the sound. For instance, to date, hardly anyone is fooled between listening to a symphony orchestra live vs. through loudspeakers. However, even in the bandwidth-reduced technology of wireless cell phone communication, we can usually recognize the voice of a previously known caller, and the entire industry has spent, since in the 1950's by Bell Labs, millions of hours and billions of dollars in analyzing the why and how of voice recognition, so as to be able to remove MOST of the information and therefore transmit only the bare minimum necessary so that the listener can recognize the voice of the caller.

HOW HARMONIC DISTORTION WORKS: Lets take a bass note, not very low, of 60 Hz. If it were just a pure sine wave, and if a loudspeaker were able to reproduce it distortionlessly (an impossibity), one could not tell if it came from an organ, bass guitar, steam ship whistle or truck exhaust. However, all things that produce sound in nature have a built-in "spring" and this resonates in response to the energy that creates motion. In this case, the 2nd harmonics of a 60 Hz tone are: 120, 240, 480, 960, 1920, 3840, 7580 and 15360 Hz (within the human hearing range).

Now if we were able to take this distortionless 60 Hz tone and add in various quantities of 120, 240, 480, 960 Hz, suddenly one would be able to describe the sound as coming specifically from an organ, bass guitar, boat, truck etc, The strange thing is that you could listen to the "harmonicized" sound being convinced you were listening to a low bass guitar note, and then REMOVE the fundamental 60 Hz tone, AND NOTICE PRACTICALLY NO DIFFERENCE!! The ear and the human brain have sophisticated "logic" to detect and analyze these 2nd harmonic overtones and identify both source and level, even though the basic frequency is completely missing.

This allows car stereo, iPod/MP3 player, earbud, and cell phone manufacturers to design and produce products which "fool" the ear/brain into thinking that there is abundant bass, when there actually is none present. Subwoofer manufacturers who produce compact systems are particularly adept at making "rich bass sound" when in reality there is no output below 100 Hz. It is all an illusion, based of course on Psychoacoustics.

So yes, the Kappa woofers produce proper bass, but since they add so little 2nd harmonic distortions, most of us would prefer to be "fooled", purchase and install a subwoofer producing great gobs of 2nd harmonic distortion, and feel satisfied that our W204's have "quality low-distortion full-range stereo sound". NOT. But we like it don't we? I, do to a point.

Now as for 3rd order harmonics, like fingernails on a chalk board, police sirens, scraping noises, or anything played that hits its electronic limit like an overdriven amplifier in a small system, MP3's and BLUETOOTH, these all possess those dreaded irritating 3rd order harmonics. In the case of our 60 Hz example if we added in 180 & 360 Hz tones (the first and second 3rd order harmonics of a 60 Hz tone) and gradually increased their levels, there would be a point where the listener would find the sound totally and eventually unbearably undesirable. MP3's and particularly BLUETOOTH are so bandwidth reduced that when decoded, most of their harmonics are, in fact, 3rd order harmonics (a mathematical and statistical fact). Bluetooth particularly to this listener sounds like music processed through a wood chipper. Why waste your time and life listening to noise?

SO HERE'S A TIP: If you want to greatly improve the quality of the sound of your car stereo FOR A $0.00 DOLLAR INVESTMENT, then please only use the highest bit-rate MP3's, or better Apple Lossless encoding (which actually gives you every single bit an original CD has when decoded), AND NO BLUETOOTH. Really, who wants to listen to 3rd harmonic GARBAGE? Good listening everybody!!!!

KCaudell

So after reading most, if not all, of the posts in this thread, I believe I have the Audio50 in my 2010 C300 which has NAV, no HK, iPod integration cable in the glove box, and no sub-woofer.

I don't believe I have access to any eq settings in the Engineering menu. I had to use 1-HangUp-# to access it. Am I missing something? Is there another Engineering menu that we have access to?

I also noticed a reference to the volume balancing of different inputs either through a standard Volume menu or a hidden menu holding COMAND wheel-CLR-BACK down. I don't see either of these. Is there another keypad sequence to utilize or am I just SOL?

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Typically the head units are far better than the speakers that manufacturers deploy in their cars. It's insane. This is what we get when we let the "Bean Counters" drive manufacturing and design. For another $50 per car at the most, a decent speaker could be put in. If we can buy a single boxed set of speakers for $50, then the manufacturer should be able to utilize this same speaker for $20 in quantities of 100,000. Sorry, didn't mean to go down that rabbit hole!

Thanks. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Acapulco Bill

Actually a MB technician from Hong Kong, where the stock OEM speakers are sourced, let it slip that the cost of all 8 speakers WAS ONE DOLLAR. The Audio20/50 headunits are actually very sophisticated, contain fantastic analog-to-digital chips (all iPod input is actually in the analog domain), and the power amplifiers are low distortion and when driven into clipping, create mostly 2nd harmonics and not too many 3rd harmonics (known as "soft clipping").

With the Audio50, you have about 80 watts RMS into 2 ohms, go for the Kappas for sure. I have been looking into aftermarket headunits for the W204 but forget it!! Some major brands like Pioneer only provide 17 watts RMS per channel. Despite the expense. Sorry that the Audio50 cant display anything through Bluetooth. Have an M3 with an aftermarket headunit that I can broadcast TorquePro from my Galaxy onto the 9" headunit screen, it is just FABLOUS! With a JL Audio 400 watt subwoofer installed blasting forward from the middle dead section of the rear seats, its actually so much better than the HK's we had in our various 3 series. Tasty. Most people use bass like some just put to much SALT on ALL their food. Bass should be used properly and normally, sparingly, lovingly.

ENGINEERING MENU: your MB dealer should be able to upload this software into your headunit at no cost during a regular A service. However not ALL headunits have the components to manipulate this true parametric equalizer. A short time ago that was an audio engineer's dream, we only had discrete component parametrics, with sloppy slopes and ill-defined frequencies for pro sound applications. The EQ in the W204 headunit, is a professional's dream. However, most will use it like a simple tone control and derive no benefit. Perhaps I should start another thread...

(Or am I wrong, can you display stuff through Bluetooth on your Nav screen??? The question is WHY NOT??? Mercedes advertizes "hi tech" but really its a total lie IMO. The cheapest Ford can do it currently, plus MyTouch, voice command and Sync, all comes standard on an $17k base price car. Really!!!)

VOLUME BALANCING, on the headunit always use BOOST (not "normal") for Aux or iPod inputs through the Volume option, that will balance anything from the CD or radio from the headunit. Again iPod volume setting "8" with EQ on "POP".

THOUGHTS: Well if MB spent just $14 on their OEM speakers, probably few would bother with the $875 HK Logic7 option (which as a guess costs MB about $175 to install). The aftermarket ANYTHING for the W204 is a barren desert, compared to BMW, Honda, Nissan, Toyota etc.

I have posted much in this thread because I am passionate about music & sound, and there is so little offered for quality third-party upgrades in terms of electronics. So quality efficient speakers were the best way to go esides being inexpensive, and the Infinity Kappas were technically and sonically by far the best solution, I personally have no brand preference. The only two systems that blow away my $50k home system are the B&W Zeppelin Air and the Xbox Spherex surround system, now out of production, which was designed and engineered by the company who manufactured the speakers for the $50k system. If you can pick up some ($300) JUST DO IT. Every member of my family has a set, this is all the audio one will need for the rest of their life. http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index...eId=7&blogId=1

Again, good listening, but at LEAST be discerning, life is too short misusing the divine gift of music by listening to junk, through poor quality systems and speakers, and even less by wasting your time when you have good sound, using as a media source such quality-compromised formats as low-bitrate MP3's played horribly through Bluetooth from your iPod/Smartphone "just because it's cool tech?" NOT! (maybe for ebooks). Get real!

KCaudell

I too love music and it's faithful reproduction. I have only an intermediate knowledge of sound and reproduction. I appreciate your insights and time to comment and advise. I do believe there is a point of diminishing returns wherever your interests lay. The difference from $100 to $500 in a pair of speakers is huge, the difference from $1,000 - $2,000 is much smaller. I think we can all find that sweet spot somewhere in the middle where we get great sound (or whatever your passion is) for a reasonable dollar.

I have a Jolida tube amp with Vienna Acoustics Bachs and a Rega Apollo CD player. I also run a Velodyne DD12 from time to time with this setup as well. Great sound and relatively few dollars for a great system with great presence and depth. I'm also a huge fan of Transmission Line loudspeaker design.

Regarding the MP3 issue, IMHO it depends on the bit rate that you write your original files to. Granted it won't be as good as any lossless format, but 420kbps is better than 128k no matter how you slice it. Then factor in the far from perfect environment of a car's cabin and you have a system that can only be so good anyway. The head units that Mercedes uses are very good considering the environment they're used in. We could do better with better speakers as the Infinity's seem to be and for $200 plus a $179 Infinity BassLink, I think you'll have a pretty decent system that won't break the bank.

I think Mercedes Benz offers great value in a vehicle as well. I love my C300 so far, it handles well, is reasonably comfortable and is less than $30,000 with a 135,000 mile warranty.

Now if I could just get the EQ parameters located. :o)

Thank you for your insights.

Kelvin

dj_marv

Looks like im gonna be upgrading my speakers too.

I'm gonna buy the components required and take it to the installer.

Dont think i have the heart to DIY

Is the Infinity Kappa's 60.9cs/62.9i set up still the recommended ...3 years after?

Acapulco Bill

@dj_mary: Yes the 60.9's for the front and the 6032si shallow mount for the rears. I think the 62.9's have too deep a basket/magnet structure to be a comfortable fit. Whomever does the install, make sure that the front crossovers are securely hot-glued inside the doors, and that both treble shelving switches are left in the "0 dB" position (and not the -6 dB position). Here are the Amazon links:


Good sound engineering and manufacturing production never go "out of style". So far there is nothing better for this particular application. A simple speaker upgrade with significant sonic improvement for little expense.

aznmode

I'm thinking of doing this but they no longer sell the Bass600 but instead going with the Bass800. Does anyone know how this is wired or do I have to install a PAC to the back of my head unit to get output to the sub?

I assume I need to buy these also to complete the install

Acapulco Bill

Saludos aznmode from Acapulco. A couple of comments on the Boss800 sub. First the description says it has a passive radiator, so it may be 2 sided? Would have to be mounted under the rear shelf cutting a hole into the passenger compartment. No remote volume control.

Maybe a better single-sided install could be with the Boss1200 10", which comes with a remote wired volume control (I have my control mounted under the steering wheel). Link:


Installation, maybe the first Boss Kit-2 would be convenient, the PAC is not necessary as you have a high-level input on the amp so you just splice into the speaker leads. Had my MB dealer install mine, done with a smile and inexpensively, but this dealer in Mexico provides exceptional service. As long as you are running the wiring with the remote control, no problem to locate and splice into the front speaker wires coming out the back of the headunit. Then power can be taken off the headunit hot lead, so it turns the subwoofer on and off with the radio. The descriptions say "remote turn on" which may be signal sensing... in my experience this sometimes does not work well and subs turn on and off between tracks or tunes, leaving you without bass until the signal is detected.

Hope this has been helpful.

aznmode

Hello and thank you. Definitely most useful. I didnt realize the 800 did not have a remote. Thank you for noticing. Sadly though, amazon only has a used one of the 1200. So I will have to keep looking for one. But regardless it looks like I would still end up removing the head unit so I can splice to 1 of the speakers. This wouldn't degrade the output on that particular speaker I splice into would it? Otherwise, it seems very simple. Besides running of the wires all the way to the trunk. I wonder if there's a chance my non HK audio50 is prewired for a sub.

aznmode

Also have you noticed any rattling having the sub mounted where you have it?

Acapulco Bill

@aznmode: Joss is in your favor, here is the current 10" model and it does have the remote control:

Suggest that since you are already running the remote up front, run both sides L and R independently back to the sub, the wiring in the Kit should provide for this. Rattling, mine was dead tight, but now after three years perhaps the cushioning sandwiched between the two layers in the shelf has collapsed, on higher levels there was an occasional buzz recently. I drive the W204 so little, compared to the fantastic Ford, I failed to notice the last time. I will make a note when taking the Benz out for a spin tomorrow.

aznmode

Thank you again. I will get the 1400 instead. Luckily I have folding rear seats so it'll make it somewhat easier to mount the sub. can't wait. If it rattles I'll just relocate it. Thanks again