Vadim @ evosport

Here is the picture of ODPS. Bottom row is stock crankshaft, water pump and alternator pulleys. Upper row is ODPS. Missing from the picture is smaller belt tensioner, colder pulgs and new belt. 8.9 lbs. stock vs. 3 lbs. ODPS.

I am doing more testing this week. I will post the results later.

Thank you for listening.

JustinTRW

rrf

Yessssss.

amgme

wow, looking good! can't want for you to post more figures and results. looking very forward to it.

any idea how much this will cost?

Vadim @ evosport

I do not have a price set yet. It will depend on the final content of the kit, but it will be less than other make.

amgme

will your ODPK have a harmonic balancer like the stock pulley. i would think this is very important since the stock pulley has one.

Boo2

Finally!!!! Can't wait!

Vadim @ evosport

The reason stock crankshaft pullye has rubber ring on inside is to dampen belt noise, not engine balancing. Engine is balanced internally.

It is the same part number for all late-model MB V6 and V8 engines. If it had anything to do with balancing, it would be different for each engine. The reason we went with solid pulley has to do with high failure rate of outer ring on stock V6 and V8s crank pulley. When it fails, it could be very dramatic. Several month ago when I had my car in for service, a E320 was towed in with crank pulley spun out. It destroyed front engine cover, radiator, water pump, fan and pretty much everything else that got in it's way.

Since it takes over 70HP to drive a Kompressor, I am not comfortable in pressing out outer ring and pressing on a bigger one, like it is done by other companies.

If you guys remember a post awhile back that covered KLEEMANN E55 doing 338 km/h. That car has 600HP, a lot of hard track miles and a solid crank pulley. Stock one failed before.

Boo2

Hey Vadim, with all this talk about warranty, what will be Evosport's policy?

rrf

The Balance Shaft inside the motor serves the function of what is being commonly referred to as "harmonic balance". Sticking an large eccentric weight on the end of the crank what was what they used to do on 65 Buicks.

Wards Motor says:
"Never mind that the modular manufacturing plan dictated that the V-6 engines adopt the 90-degree layout ideal for V-8s; a balance shaft, rotating at twice crankshaft speed, rectified the inherent internal-balance compromise involved with V-6s using a 90-degree vee angle".

"For the Mercedes 3.2L SOHC V-6, making the Ward’s 10 Best Engines list for the fourth consecutive year seems...."

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/deng.html

The rubber part we are discussing here is really "just" an isolator/dampner. I am actually wondering why MBZ put a 8-9 pound pulley on there, why? smoothness?

Also, stock crank pulleys aren't "all that" because they can/do fail, regularly (supposedly 40K miles). With surprisingly bad results.

amgme

looking at the renntech boards, i noticed that some posted a question concerning harmonic dampers. here's the reply from renntech about this:

Link

Vadim @ evosport

amgme: We debated this topic on C32life board quiet extensively. Go back about a week and you will be able to find the thread.

My take on it is that Renntech pulley (also sold by MKB, Brabus and others) is modified factory pulley with bigger ring (7'' vs. 6.125''). However, the outer ring is pinned to the rubber ring in essense making it solid.

In my experince it will eventually fail, as it now has to handle over 70HP that it takes to drive the Kompressor.

This why ODPS is solid aluminum.

goalie_k

Your "take" is totally wrong. Why don't you analyze one before you guess what they consist of? A solid pulley is a time bomb waiting to explode.

otoupalik

Goalie,

Vadim clearly posted that it was his opinion and did not post anything as verifiable fact. I wish more people would state when they were posting opinion, it would make things easier.

Vadim is an engineer and an aftermarket tuner, who has supplied OEM tuning parts to a major manufacturer for over 5 years prior to being part of the team at evosport. You may disagree, but his engineering and manufacturing abilities are of the highest levels, as proven by the support he has been shown by an OEM.

If you disagree with his opinion, please post some data to support your position that a solid pulley is a 'time-bomb.'

You have the choice to make this a constructive thread that explains the differences to the general members, or you can simply shoot down Vadim with no data and make this another thread of BS and personal attacks.

Please post some data to support your claim if you can. I for one would love to hear more about your position on this!

Thanks

Brad

Vadim @ evosport

Goalie K:
Yes, I have looked at Renntech/Brabus/other tuners pulley. My analysis is, that it has pins in upper ring that lock into the rubber ring. If the upper ring can not move, than the pulley, for all purposes, is solid.

The reason it is done is to save cost. Making outer ring is cheap and pressing out stock outer and pressing on new, larger one does not take much labor.

Two problems that with this setup.

Number one, you are adding weight, so there is even more load now on the front crank bearings.

Number two, you are spinning the Kompressor faster, thus increasing load on the pulley. It takes over 70HP to spin the Kompressor. Eventually, the rubber ring and pins will fail, and fail catastrophically, taking out a number of expensive parts on the front of the car and the engine.

I am basing this upon my experience with similar setup pulleys, made by ASP in the similar way and a current problem that MB has with stock crank pulley falling apart at 30,000-40,000 miles on V6 and V8 models.

Many years ago, I had similar concerns about making crank pulley solid. Over the years of monitoring cars with solid pulleys, talking to factory engineers and sharing information with other tuners, I now do not believe there will be a problem by putting solid crank pulley on C32.

otoupalik

Also, just to let everyone know, Vadim runs ALL of these parts on his OWN C32. He does not speak about them from a theoretical point of view like many do, he actually runs them everyday for over 100 miles a day!

Thanks

Brad

goalie_k

OK.

http://www.dinanbmw.com/html/danger_..._pulleys.htmor

Here is some Honda related experience:

"After having the solid crank pulley on for about 25k miles (and an 8 lb. flywheel on for 5k miles), I pulled the engine (45k total miles) to have some top and bottom end work done (I had a problem with some cams). Anyway, upon tear down, the #5 and #4 bearings (furthest from the pulley) looked perfect. #3 looked okay, #2 looked so-so, and #1 looked HORRIBLE. There were deep enough grooves in the bearing to easily catch a finger nail. Because the crank is so much harder than the bearings, the crank just had to be polished on the bearing journals. As for the pump, there were vibration grooves worn into the pump housing that were so severe that the pump had to be replaced with a new one. Everything else looked fine. The progressive nature of the damage to the bearings leads me to believe that the pulley was to blame. I had seen Honda engines with 3 times as many miles without solid crank pulleys that had perfect crank bearings throughout."

http://www.miataforum.com/cgi-bin/ul...=1&t=007135&p=



as Vadims says
"For longest time I thoght the same. But after talking to two engine engineers, one working for Ford the other for BMW, they both admited that the dampning was for the belt noise. I can hear belt noise a bit louder now. "

that is a joke right? A combustion engine doesn't makes vibration. That is news to me. Belts do not make noise. Why dosen't he ask a mercedes engineer?

He can do whatever he wants to his car, but the thruth of the matter is that selling a solid pulley is irresponsible and dangerous.

Kick save!

otoupalik

Goalie,

Thanks for posting your support.

I have to say that the Dinan article has nothing to do with MB. That is a SPECIFIC problem with the BMW I6 motor. That is why we have also stayed away from a crank pulley change on that motor. As you may know, and I6 is significantly longer then a I4, V6 or V8. The crank is longer and more susceptible to harmonics and imbalance and stretch. I can understand how you would read from that into any other motor, but that is not really an accurate thing to do.

Again, you make an comment like "He can do whatever he wants to his car, but the thruth of the matter is that selling a solid pulley is irresponsible and dangerous." A comment like this is reactionary and un-helpful to all! Please state your source for this TRUTH?!

I am not attempting to be argumentative here, I am just really tired of people posting opinion as fact. If you have a position, prove it. Don't use unrelated forum posts and un-applicable white papers relating to a specific motor from another manufacturer (of which MB does not even have the same motor configuration in any of it's new cars). Or if it simply your opinion, there is nothing wrong with that - but state it as an opinion, not as fact.

You have no evidence to support your OPINION as shown yet. Have you personally ever re-built a motor or developed any aftermarket product for the car? The reason I ask is that there is often a large gap between pure theoretical knowledge and real world understanding as it relates to aftermarket vehicle tuning.

There are a lot of newbies here that will read a post and trust it 100%. It is not fair to all of them when we don't let them know when we are talking in fact or opinion.

Thanks

Brad

linh

Well, awhile back when i brough my car into the dealer and got a chance talk to a Master Tech. about my lean problem and that's when he find out that i installed Kleemann pulley. All i can say is that, he said to remove it or it will vibrate and damages the engine in a long run. I have to agreed with goalie_K on this issues. Listen....Mercedes just didn't design "harmonic balancer" pulley for no reason. This is almost the same reason why Mercede used shock absorber on the belt tensioner too. This is all an effort to reduces vibration on the engine. Those that disagreed with the article then link us to your proof? I would love to see you guys debate this with Mercedes, BMW, Renntech, Dinan....etc.

linh

Here's another article about "harmonic Balancer" pulley .......

http://www.teamscr.com/pulleys.htm

otoupalik

Linh,

As stated above, a saturn motor is NOT the same as a BMW or Mercedes.

Posting stories from other boards (which are not always FACT) and from other motors is NOT conclusive.

Example, dinan has his white paper, yet I know of over 50 BMW's (e36 M3's) with a solid Crank Pulley (ERT, Unorthodox Racing, etc.), some of which have over 50K+ miles since the mod with NO problems. Now does that invalidate Dinan's findings. Nope, but it is another data point.

Vadim has stated his opinions on the issue, explaining a little about why he has that OPINION. No one else is posting anything else that applies to the MBZ motors.

Linh, you have the pulley on your car and it doesn't seem like you are taking it off?

Thanks

Brad

linh

Brad, i won't take it off even those there's a chance that it might damages my engine. This is part of tunning and i don't expect to still have the factory reliability. Brad, you miss the point here, the "harmonic balancer" were design to reduce vibration. So it does not matter whether is a 4 cylinder, I-6, V6, V8 etc. Just like the tire require to balance everytime you put in new tire, to reduce vibration cause by unbalance in the tire. You can still drive the car without balance your tires but in a long run it will shake every nuts and bolt off from your suspension.

If you know so much about it, then why don't you write an article about it explaining why you disagreed with the article, then see what the experts have to say about your article. You dare to try?

otoupalik

No Linh,

You MISS the point. I have never stated an opinion or a position on the matter. Re-read the post, have you dared?

Vadim stated some fact with his support and some opinion. Goalie stated an opinion disguised as fact.

I stated that you cannot use other motors to compare (which I do not need to debate with you as you do not listen to what people say anyway) to a Mercedes. Why don;t you call Dinan and ask him if the harmonic balancer in a Mercedes V-6 is designed specifically for that car and is needed. He will not know as he specializes in BMW. He will tell you that he does not know, rather then try to speculate.

If you would actually READ this thread, you will see that my ONLY point of contention with what Goalie said was that it was an opinion disguised as fact with no proof to support the statement.

Linh, if you think the harmonic balancer is so critical, then why are they the same for all the MB v6's and v8's? Do you really think that MB has the amazing ability to build in the same vibration tendencies in all their v6's and v8's? I will tell you that they don't. If you ran comprehensive tests on all of these motors, I would be willing to bet you titles to our cars that you will find differing results!

Again, I never stated an opinion on the matter. However, I did ask Goalie to show us some SPECIFIC MERCEDES info that was on point so that we could have a productive and informative discussion on the matter. It seams that you and him have both missed that point.

Thanks

Brad

amgme

i seem to concur w/ brad on this issue such that if a harmonic balancer is need, then why would MB use the same balancer for every engine? if it was so important, each balancer would need to be tuned for each individual engine but this is simply not the case. the same part is used for their v6 and v8 engines.

linh

Even after knowing this about BMW I-6 problem with aftermarket crank pulley, and Evosport are selling those pulley. It can only be one reason, is MONEY !! All i have to say about the "harmonic balancer", that is there for a reason? Do you agree with that or not? If the alloy pulley is SO GOOD (lighter plus give you more hp) then why didn't Mercedes install it in their cars? If it not importance then why BMW, Mazda, Saturn, Honda engine ...etc. has problem with aftermarket pulley? Why do we "balances" the tire? Is the same reason why Mercedes installed "harmonic balancer" pulley.