M156 head bolt problems
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From: California ,Oregon, Idaho
AMG GTR, GTBS,944 Turbo, GT4RS,GT2RS,GT3rs,GT4,Lotus Exige S,BMW M3CS,M4CSL,Lamborghini STO, Tesla Y
RE: your point # 1: People take these cars seriously, because they are serious, high performing super sedans. That's a fact.
RE: your point # 2: You miss the point entirely. In fact, I already mentioned that sometimes **** happens, as in, sometimes there is a bad batch of parts and someone is unlucky to receive a car with those parts. That's life, as I mentioned. But, here, as I mentioned, this is a design defect. Why else would MB/AMG change the head bolts? Because they could save money? No. Because, the first batch of head bolts are not dependable. Customers should not have to pay for a repair that was caused by MB/AMG's negligence.
RE: your point # 3: You're wrong. Rebuilt M156's cost more than $5K even at an indy shop. I know you know what catastrophic engine failure is, and if an engine hydrolocks, that's what can happen.
"Pay to play" has no application here.
RE: your point # 2: You miss the point entirely. In fact, I already mentioned that sometimes **** happens, as in, sometimes there is a bad batch of parts and someone is unlucky to receive a car with those parts. That's life, as I mentioned. But, here, as I mentioned, this is a design defect. Why else would MB/AMG change the head bolts? Because they could save money? No. Because, the first batch of head bolts are not dependable. Customers should not have to pay for a repair that was caused by MB/AMG's negligence.
RE: your point # 3: You're wrong. Rebuilt M156's cost more than $5K even at an indy shop. I know you know what catastrophic engine failure is, and if an engine hydrolocks, that's what can happen.
"Pay to play" has no application here.
Hydrolocks happen to many cars due the head gaskets to bolts and if people are stupid and keep cranking the car then you could get a bent rod. But it does not happen that's fast you 1st notice miss fires . And if the owner is smart the will simply pull the heads off and do the repairs which will be less then 5 k max.if the owner is cheap and keeps letting issue go then will I don't need to say anything on that one . So who really cares if your worried about go get some ARP bold put in and problem is fixed. My car has 6500 miles on it and it's a 2010 and guess what I'm pulling the heads off and just doing it not Beacuse I have any issues but just Beacuse.
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Your right they are correct they are sedans NOT sports cars or by any means supper cars.
Hydrolocks happen to many cars due the head gaskets to bolts and if people are stupid and keep cranking the car then you could get a bent rod. But it does not happen that's fast you 1st notice miss fires . And if the owner is smart the will simply pull the heads off and do the repairs which will be less then 5 k max.if the owner is cheap and keeps letting issue go then will I don't need to say anything on that one . So who really cares if your worried about go get some ARP bold put in and problem is fixed. My car has 6500 miles on it and it's a 2010 and guess what I'm pulling the heads off and just doing it not Beacuse I have any issues but just Beacuse.
Hydrolocks happen to many cars due the head gaskets to bolts and if people are stupid and keep cranking the car then you could get a bent rod. But it does not happen that's fast you 1st notice miss fires . And if the owner is smart the will simply pull the heads off and do the repairs which will be less then 5 k max.if the owner is cheap and keeps letting issue go then will I don't need to say anything on that one . So who really cares if your worried about go get some ARP bold put in and problem is fixed. My car has 6500 miles on it and it's a 2010 and guess what I'm pulling the heads off and just doing it not Beacuse I have any issues but just Beacuse.
Your view is rediculous, to be honest. I should pay thousands of dollars for preventative maintenance because of MB/AMG's negligence? Why? Because...
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From: California ,Oregon, Idaho
AMG GTR, GTBS,944 Turbo, GT4RS,GT2RS,GT3rs,GT4,Lotus Exige S,BMW M3CS,M4CSL,Lamborghini STO, Tesla Y
Vehicle owners do not have the responsibility to be auto mechanics, so your presumption is flawed. Vehicle owners are not expected to know early warning signs of a failing motor. If the motor is failing because of a design defect, you can't negate the responsibility of the vehicle's manufacturer by presuming and expecting vehicle owners to be engineers and mechanics. That's foolish.
Your view is rediculous, to be honest. I should pay thousands of dollars for preventative maintenance because of MB/AMG's negligence? Why? Because...
Your view is rediculous, to be honest. I should pay thousands of dollars for preventative maintenance because of MB/AMG's negligence? Why? Because...
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MB
Im not saying MB does not have responsibility but people need to understand that's why they have a warranty. If a guy buys a used car and he only has 3k left on his warranty then i'm sorry Tuff Sh*t. Our society is alway expecting for things to be given things to them and its no wonder OBAMA is our president for that reason. You have a warranty once it runs out you as the owner need to take possibility. Once the warranty runs out it is the owners responsibility NOT mine NOT MB but the owner. The warranty is a contract.
Second, a defective design is problematic from the point it was designed and installed in a product. Just because an express warranty expires, doesn't mean the manufacturer's responsibility for their negligence also expires. I concede this is a grey area in law. It's not cut and dry. I'm making the argument in support of the end consumer. I will not side with MB/AMG on this one. I believe implied warranties are relevant here, not express warranties. And it's not black and white how the implied warranties function in this case.
This confusion is to the end consumer's detriment. I believe the consumers have legal rights here, but it is not certain whether they would be successful in an implied warranty suit. I think there is enough meat to get into court, but no one could predict the outcome. I believe, MB is counting on this, because for the very few consumers that fight this issue and win, it will cost MB much much less than extending the warranty to cover failure from these head bolts in every M156 built within this date range.
This issue is not about government handouts, so we can save that discussion for another time.
This issue is about a part that MB/AMG should have known was not dependible for the given application it was used for. That culpability doesn't expire when the express warranty runs.
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From: California ,Oregon, Idaho
AMG GTR, GTBS,944 Turbo, GT4RS,GT2RS,GT3rs,GT4,Lotus Exige S,BMW M3CS,M4CSL,Lamborghini STO, Tesla Y
First off, MB is not U.S government owned, so rest assured you will never be burdened with increased taxes to cover a MB's owner's vehicle failure.
Second, a defective design is problematic from the point it was designed and installed in a product. Just because an express warranty expires, doesn't mean the manufacturer's responsibility for their negligence also expires. I concede this is a grey area in law. It's not cut and dry. I'm making the argument in support of the end consumer. I will not side with MB/AMG on this one. I believe implied warranties are relevant here, not express warranties. And it's not black and white how the implied warranties function in this case.
This confusion is to the end consumer's detriment. I believe the consumers have legal rights here, but it is not certain whether they would be successful in an implied warranty suit. I think there is enough meat to get into court, but no one could predict the outcome. I believe, MB is counting on this, because for the very few consumers that fight this issue and win, it will cost MB much much less than extending the warranty to cover failure from these head bolts in every M156 built within this date range.
This issue is not about government handouts, so we can save that discussion for another time.
This issue is about a part that MB/AMG should have known was not dependible for the given application it was used for. That culpability doesn't expire when the express warranty runs.
Second, a defective design is problematic from the point it was designed and installed in a product. Just because an express warranty expires, doesn't mean the manufacturer's responsibility for their negligence also expires. I concede this is a grey area in law. It's not cut and dry. I'm making the argument in support of the end consumer. I will not side with MB/AMG on this one. I believe implied warranties are relevant here, not express warranties. And it's not black and white how the implied warranties function in this case.
This confusion is to the end consumer's detriment. I believe the consumers have legal rights here, but it is not certain whether they would be successful in an implied warranty suit. I think there is enough meat to get into court, but no one could predict the outcome. I believe, MB is counting on this, because for the very few consumers that fight this issue and win, it will cost MB much much less than extending the warranty to cover failure from these head bolts in every M156 built within this date range.
This issue is not about government handouts, so we can save that discussion for another time.
This issue is about a part that MB/AMG should have known was not dependible for the given application it was used for. That culpability doesn't expire when the express warranty runs.
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SonnyakaPig you seem like a good guy and i do respect in your opinion. But im sorry its not a safety issue and things have a life expectancy just like tires and breaks and other parts in your car that will fail. At what point does a car manufacture put their foot down and say No? Every car manufacture has design flaws. I hope you see my point...
I see your view, but from my posts I think you can tell I don't agree with it's application to these facts. It's all good. Enjoy your super sedan beast.
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From: Los Angeles, CA
C63, 335i
Mercedes should just man up and do what BMW did with their HPFP issue that plagued their N54 engines by offering up the 10 year or 120,000 mile warranty on the affected cars with the HPFP problem. Or offer to pay for the repairs completely when they do occur.
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C63 AMG
We have another case, this one at barely over 20k miles.
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...ml#post5348630
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...ml#post5348630
Last edited by bhamg; Sep 7, 2012 at 01:40 AM.
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2009 Mercedes C63
Otherwise I'm upgrading to a 2011/12 when ym warranty is near expiration
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AMG GLC63. Audi R8
Keeping this thread going is at least one way to get the attention of MBZ. As the problem is known (as evidenced by a service bulletin and a change of parts) it would seem MBZ should recall all the potentially impacted vehicles. (It would also seem this is a very good consumer class action suit). However the cost to repair is substantial and the head bolt issue does not occur in all engines. Hence MBZ is taking the low road and handling these on a case by case basis when out of warranty. Obviously they feel some responsibility as they are willing to pay a major portion of the repair cost. However this is not what most people would come to expect of a premium brand. The more pressing issue is what if you don't have the problem and you decide to sell the car. Anyone doing even minor research is going to find this issue and either look for an extreme discount or not consider any cars that are in the engine number range. An extended warranty (like BMW) would be an easy solution for all concerned.
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C63 ML350
You are 100% correct... To add to this if AMG did go this route and warrant extended warranty for this problem it would add to the value of the AMG image as a company who looks after their loyal customers.
This problem can spread throughout car communities and has the ability to steer future possible clients away from the brand as they could feel that looking after customers is not the goal for the company.
I understand keeping quiet is best at the moment and wait to see if the problem is a true issue with all motors and I look forward to seeing how the company approaches this issue in the hopefully not to distant future.
People who own the M156 motor during the problem production range who are made aware of this problem will most likely avoid AMG in their next car purchase.
This problem can spread throughout car communities and has the ability to steer future possible clients away from the brand as they could feel that looking after customers is not the goal for the company.
I understand keeping quiet is best at the moment and wait to see if the problem is a true issue with all motors and I look forward to seeing how the company approaches this issue in the hopefully not to distant future.
People who own the M156 motor during the problem production range who are made aware of this problem will most likely avoid AMG in their next car purchase.
Keeping this thread going is at least one way to get the attention of MBZ. As the problem is known (as evidenced by a service bulletin and a change of parts) it would seem MBZ should recall all the potentially impacted vehicles. (It would also seem this is a very good consumer class action suit). However the cost to repair is substantial and the head bolt issue does not occur in all engines. Hence MBZ is taking the low road and handling these on a case by case basis when out of warranty. Obviously they feel some responsibility as they are willing to pay a major portion of the repair cost. However this is not what most people would come to expect of a premium brand. The more pressing issue is what if you don't have the problem and you decide to sell the car. Anyone doing even minor research is going to find this issue and either look for an extreme discount or not consider any cars that are in the engine number range. An extended warranty (like BMW) would be an easy solution for all concerned.
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C63 AMG
This was my first AMG after three M cars. This is a GREAT car overall...it was kind of an impulse purchase and I don't regret buying it whatsoever. That said, a potential major engine defect like this, whether caused by metallurgy, design, deficient QC or whatever just pisses me off. Could there be a worse problem? Bearings, valve train, cylinders walls...what's worse than head bolts breaking with little or no warning?
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From: SoCal
997.2 GT3
This head bolt issue reminds me of the intermediate shaft bearing issue that affected all flat-6 Porsches from '97 through '08 other than Turbo, GT3 and GT2 models. Failure of the bearing was sudden and caused catastrophic engine damage. Porsche took care of failures under warranty, but did not recall any cars or extend warranties for owners. The Porsche problem is worse than the M156 head bolt issue - there were some reports of engines replaced by Porsche under warranty suffering the same failure a few years down the road. At least we don't have any known incidence of problems with the new head bolts.
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.
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C63 AMG
Further to my post above...I'll be driving from SoCal to Key West and back again in the spring, just for the fun of it. I'll be entering into the "prime range" for this problem, i.e., north of 30k miles. I've been seriously considering going in the M Coupe instead even though it's far from ideal for this purpose. I'd much rather go in the Merc. The chances of getting stranded so far from home (and from my dealer) though, even if relatively miniscule, is something I'll have to think about further as the trip draws closer. Like I said, to even have that be a consideration pisses me off.
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FF. W212 E63 M156 non-pano 18" P2 ParkT NightV (gone but will be missed).
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To replace the head bolts, the cams must be removed which requires both some special tools and a bit of skill. I don't see why you could not remove one head bolt at a time then torque it to the specified amount before you continue the torque to yield turn. I was qouted labor of $1,500 plus parts.
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MB
It would be interesting to learn whether MB would honor the remaining powertrain warranty of a car if the owner paid a MB dealer to replace the headbolts with the new ones... What about if an owner used an indy shop for this measure of preventative maintenance?
These are the types of screwy questions that arise because MB has so far remained quiet on this issue.
I can see them taking the position that touching an engine that didn't show any need for it was just creating an unnecessary risk.
These are the types of screwy questions that arise because MB has so far remained quiet on this issue.
I can see them taking the position that touching an engine that didn't show any need for it was just creating an unnecessary risk.
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Multiply the labor rate times 15 hours + parts. IIRC, the TSB also requires the replacement of the updated valve buckets (remember that pending class action suit). If you are doing out of pocket, you may or may not want to forgo updating the buckets.
