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Burger Motorsports 2018 C63 Dyno Testing

 
Old 09-25-2018, 06:33 PM
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well in the real world (not a controlled environment), you start off stopped with no air flowing, accelerate and suck in heat soaked air. not until your moving does the air flow cooler.

have them close the hood start the run and then turn on the fan midway with a closed hood and see what #'s they get.

looks like they may have dynoed with the hood open and air blowing on top

I would like to see them run the CAI without a tune to compare vs stock.

Last edited by Luis Tellechea; 09-25-2018 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 09-25-2018, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ezatnova View Post
Not to contradict myself from my post above, but I suppose in comes the argument that intake air temp doesn't matter much on turbo cars since the turbos will ultra-heat the air anyway. Whether they suck in 90 degree air or 400 degree air, it's still going to get super heated and then the intercooler needs to do its job. Still, there could be some maths behind the delta of the rise in temp in the time passing through the turbos.

Hopefully BMS can log some IAT, A/F, timing, etc, on OEM and their intake and compare results in road driving conditions.
You hit on it in talking about rise in temp passing through the turbos. Yes, the turbo will heat it up, but lower ambient air temp entering will still result in lower air temps exiting the turbo, even pre-intercooler. Depending on a variety of factors, there is a linear increase or decrease in inlet air temp to compressor outlet temp, and the outlet temp will be about a 1 to 5% higher than the air coming into the compressor side (depending on where in it's efficiency range the turbo is at that time).

BMS has had good success with creating gains with their intakes across the various platforms they have made them for. This design looks like it will draw in hotter air that the stock intake, especially when stopped, but the overall increase in intake volume will probably help offset any losses from heat soaking.
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Old 09-25-2018, 07:42 PM
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Yeah this is definitely not the first intake they have designed / tested for their tunes across many many platforms... If they say this is adequate / optimal, i believe them. And like I said, we went through this exact same (looooong) debate on the n54 forums and by the end of it ,everyone had a DCI...
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Old 09-27-2018, 08:06 PM
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5 months too late :/...wonder how this compares to the dinan.
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Old 09-27-2018, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rekrul View Post
5 months too late :/...wonder how this compares to the dinan.
Features/logging/map changing/customizing/CANBUS options wise, it’ll blow the Dinan away.
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Old 09-27-2018, 09:04 PM
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^ this

ALL YOUR TUNES ARE BELONG TO BMS
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Old 09-28-2018, 01:20 AM
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Damn... looks like the dinan tuner just got owned. The only benefit I can see is warranty. Seems like the install is easier as well. Really interested in the intake setup... more info please.
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Old 09-30-2018, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by rekrul View Post
Damn... looks like the dinan tuner just got owned. The only benefit I can see is warranty. Seems like the install is easier as well. Really interested in the intake setup... more info please.
Really, that's the bulk of what you are paying for with the Dinan (most Dinan products actually): the warranty. At one time, there was one big difference between the JB and the Dinan though, which was the quality of components. During the first few years of the Dinantronics tuner being on the market, if you put them side by side, the JB1/4 used much cheaper, lower quality components. The Dinan connectors were nice, better quality plastic, the wiring was thicker and higher end. One issue that BMS regularly had with their JB3&4 on the BMW N55 version was that the wire coating would actually crack and the connector would sometimes break where the boost solenoid connector attached. This happened after it was exposed to the high heat for an extended period of time. Dinan never had the same issue. Now, the JB4 component quality on the harness is just as good, if not better than, the Dinan. In the end, you are paying a fraction of the cost for the JB, and BMS is usually good at taking care of their customers. Plus, the performance and other features from the JB is much better than the Dinan, and that is really what most people are after.

Last edited by GuardianVA; 10-25-2018 at 02:06 PM. Reason: Corrected for accuracy
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Old 10-01-2018, 06:25 AM
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If the quallity is like the JB4 for the M4 i am happy with it.

I hope that also the functions like exhaust valve control, downpipe Cel delete etc will be available in the JB4 for the C63.
Could somebody say how long it will take to be on the market. I need a tune and i am thinking about waiting of the JB4 or an ECU tune.
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Old 10-01-2018, 07:27 AM
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C63 W205 17' + W205 [email protected] + NSX 95'
I asked and they say within a month so I am waiting
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Old 10-01-2018, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by notabenex View Post
I asked and they say within a month so I am waiting
Perfect!
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Old 10-01-2018, 12:01 PM
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[email protected], think we could get an intake like this instead? 😛

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Old 10-01-2018, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by skim7x View Post
[email protected], think we could get an intake like this instead? 😛

Do you think with that much piping it might affect turbo lag?

Not saying it would make a massive difference and the gain of cold air might out weigh the turbo lag
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Old 10-01-2018, 03:16 PM
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No, you're right... that much piping will definitely increase flow resistance, depending on the diameter as well...
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:54 PM
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2015 C63S , KW Has ,Kmac Bushings,BC Forged wheels,Gt Rotors w/ Porterfield R4S
and suck up a ton of water in heavy downpours
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Old 10-11-2018, 03:00 PM
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‘17 GT F1A E85 Monster ‘16 C63s
Bump! Any updates?
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Old 10-13-2018, 03:38 PM
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looks like still testing phase? they did another dyno yesterday

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Old 10-13-2018, 05:12 PM
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‘17 GT F1A E85 Monster ‘16 C63s
Damn those numbers look good if it’s just tune and intakes! Looks like it just needs a few degrees of timing advance between 3700-4k rpm or get boost to hold a little more steady. What’s on that car aside from open intakes?
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Old 10-13-2018, 05:17 PM
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‘17 GT F1A E85 Monster ‘16 C63s
Looks like it’s a race gas blend for fuel and intakes from what he said in the post. Hoping it’s with stock downpipes/exhaust...
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Old 10-13-2018, 05:44 PM
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I'm sure they have options for 91/93 oct, e85, and stage 1 and stage 2 boltons... Gotta love map switching 😁
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Old 10-14-2018, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by gOt BoOsT View Post
Damn those numbers look good if it’s just tune and intakes! Looks like it just needs a few degrees of timing advance between 3700-4k rpm or get boost to hold a little more steady. What’s on that car aside from open intakes?
Too bad that isn't possible with a JB4. It can't control timing; doesn't have that capability
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by GuardianVA View Post
Too bad that isn't possible with a JB4. It can't control timing; doesn't have that capability
Sorry it might have come across different in my post, but I was meaning the tuner at Burger needed to adjust the file to “fill in” the power dip at that rpm and it would be a pretty solid map. I’ve never used the jb4, but it sounds like there are parameters the end user can adjust like boost by gear so I look forward to tinkering with it.

Will
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Old 10-15-2018, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by gOt BoOsT View Post

Sorry it might have come across different in my post, but I was meaning the tuner at Burger needed to adjust the file to “fill in” the power dip at that rpm and it would be a pretty solid map. I’ve never used the jb4, but it sounds like there are parameters the end user can adjust like boost by gear so I look forward to tinkering with it.

Will
I followed what you meant. I noticed that dip in the powerband too. Based on the log, it looks like the AFR might have been a little leaner than the ECU liked. Even on E30, it actually looks too lean for a good part of the power band (AFR doesn't look to drop below 15 until ~5200 RPM). That lean out is probably why the timing is so much lower in that second log. I'd be curious to see what the average ignition (ignition correction) was on those logs. We're also only able to see timing on one cylinder, so there could be timing corrections on the other cylinders, but there's no corresponding changes to boost, trim, or AFR, so I'm not sure. My point was that if those early dips are based purely on timing being pulled, then BMS can't fix that issue directly with the JB4, since the JB4 can't control timing. There are work-arounds to indirectly play with timing to a small degree (fuel trim, boost, IAT), and the JB4 can be setup to use those factors, but the JB4 can't make adjustments to timing itself.

There are user adjustable parameters on the JB4, like fuel/afr bias and duty bias. As long as the trims can be kept below max, the user can adjust the targets accordingly. There are other user adjustable parameters too, such as max boost in the lower gears and PID.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:16 AM
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So they are only adjusting afr and boost with the jb4? That’s odd because an aftermarket performance “tune” always has timing adjustments (advance) since Oem timing profile is conservative. I only saw the dyno sheet with hp/tq so I’m not too sure what air/fuel or boost looked like during that pull, but a lean area could cause a timing dip for sure. Thanks for the info brotha and hopefully we will get some news on tunes and product realease from BMS soon!
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Old 10-16-2018, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by gOt BoOsT View Post
So they are only adjusting afr and boost with the jb4? That’s odd because an aftermarket performance “tune” always has timing adjustments (advance) since Oem timing profile is conservative. I only saw the dyno sheet with hp/tq so I’m not too sure what air/fuel or boost looked like during that pull, but a lean area could cause a timing dip for sure. Thanks for the info brotha and hopefully we will get some news on tunes and product realease from BMS soon!
At its most basic level, yes, the JB4 only adjusts boost and fuel trim. JB4 has always relied on the stock knock sensor to "advance" timing, which only occurs when the ECU is seeing the need for timing correction (essentially pre-detonation/knock occurring). It generally works, and they have thousands of customers over the years that have had no issues.

I was basing what I said about that pull on the logs they posted at the beginning of the thread, under the dyno plots. They list that they were using E30, and the pull with the intake installed looked like it was about 15-16 AFR for most of the run, tapering down to 12-13 by redline. E30 on direct injection should be under 15 once the boost is up, and taper down, like it did, to the around 13-upper 12s. The run was too lean for the first 2/3 of the pull, and that caused timing to be pulled, hence those early dips in the dyno plots. It will just take some tweaking with early fuel trim and those dips will smooth out. As BMS has indicated, it's all still undergoing testing, so I'm sure it will be worked out by release time. I'm looking forward to the intake being released for the c43 and c63.
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