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Taking a relative to shoulder therapy twice a week, I sometimes find myself waiting in the parking lot 45 minutes, listening to the music on Comand Media. The main battery is fully charged. In fact, the ECO Stop/Start is working regularly, confirming the good state of charge.
However, with the engine off, I can listen to music only 15-20 minutes or so before I get the notice in the Comand screen that it will shut off in 3 minutes. And indeed it does just that. Makes me wish for the old days when I could listen to the radio on accessory for 2-hours or more.
Has anyone figured out how to maximize the time on accessory for Comand, or better still, some work-around that overrides this annoying behavior? The weather is nice, so I don't feel any need to keep the engine running just so I can listen to my tunes. At $4.00/gallon, just call me cheap.
iPhone (or android if you prefer) and a good set of ear buds. Sound is way better and you can chose the music or on-air radio station. It is 2022 after all 👍
Either the ECM really sensed voltage being too low from battery reserve capacity ECM assumed as being NOT ENOUGH to allow more sound system use, or the particular sensing wire
is not having a very good contact.
The first 15 minutes of engine kill is still high power use not from sound system, but from the the other computer modules, including ECM.
Usually 10 amps and then down to 6 amps and then 2 amps and only very low <50 milliamps in a true COMPUTERS SLEEP MODE
When a battery is no more new, a mere 10 amps discharge from a allegedly FULL CHARGED battery can reduce battery voltage at the battery post down to 12.4V within minutes.
Anytime there is a discharge, battery voltage at battery post where the Hyundai Battery sensor is at, will drop.
At computer modules, voltage drop exist even more due to smal wires and local load, expect another -0.2 to -0.3V drop.
So if sound system cut-off is based also at the voltage at sound system module voltage input and not only battery sensor, more chance that the
car algo will decide within short use ...Yeah baby, lets save cranking power and kill the sound system
There is a list which items will be killed in priority table and since I do not have unique cold country heaters, my sound system is the one the car algo killed first but it was like 1+ hour of music running at least.
Only once I got my sound system killed in the name of low voltage protection, after that I stopped listening to music after my car washing.
Car washing , its drying and vacuum cleaning actually...with doors and trunk/boot opened up, is the battery killer. I always charge my battery after
washing/drying and vacuuming.
Now, 99.99% of W212 and more so if START-STOP feature being activated , can never have their main battery fully charged.
The dumb azz ECM charging algo does not allow it, even with START-STOP disabled.
This alone is already a known pain we all discussed in great length some 1 - 2 years ago. So your allegedly fully charged battery is probably max only 80% charged.
For this very reason of our main battery not allowed to be fully charged by the EMC, I disconnected my LIN data cable from ECM to alternator and have enjoyed
a conventional but proper charging since middle of 2021. No more charging voltage YoYo and never below 12.8volt from the alternator.
Sweet 13.8ish volt constant and the amperage can throttle so beautifully and polite too.
Either the ECM really sensed voltage being too low from battery reserve capacity ECM assumed as being NOT ENOUGH to allow more sound system use, or the particular sensing wire
is not having a very good contact.
The first 15 minutes of engine kill is still high power use not from sound system, but from the the other computer modules, including ECM.
Usually 10 amps and then down to 6 amps and then 2 amps and only very low <50 milliamps in a true COMPUTERS SLEEP MODE
When a battery is no more new, a mere 10 amps discharge from a allegedly FULL CHARGED battery can reduce battery voltage at the battery post down to 12.4V within minutes.
Anytime there is a discharge, battery voltage at battery post where the Hyundai Battery sensor is at, will drop.
At computer modules, voltage drop exist even more due to smal wires and local load, expect another -0.2 to -0.3V drop.
So if sound system cut-off is based also at the voltage at sound system module voltage input and not only battery sensor, more chance that the
car algo will decide within short use ...Yeah baby, lets save cranking power and kill the sound system
There is a list which items will be killed in priority table and since I do not have unique cold country heaters, my sound system is the one the car algo killed first but it was like 1+ hour of music running at least.
Only once I got my sound system killed in the name of low voltage protection, after that I stopped listening to music after my car washing.
Car washing , its drying and vacuum cleaning actually...with doors and trunk/boot opened up, is the battery killer. I always charge my battery after
washing/drying and vacuuming.
Now, 99.99% of W212 and more so if START-STOP feature being activated , can never have their main battery fully charged.
The dumb azz ECM charging algo does not allow it, even with START-STOP disabled.
This alone is already a known pain we all discussed in great length some 1 - 2 years ago. So your allegedly fully charged battery is probably max only 80% charged.
For this very reason of our main battery not allowed to be fully charged by the EMC, I disconnected my LIN data cable from ECM to alternator and have enjoyed
a conventional but proper charging since middle of 2021. No more charging voltage YoYo and never below 12.8volt from the alternator.
Sweet 13.8ish volt constant and the amperage can throttle so beautifully and polite too.
Thanks for your explanation. I knew that someone more technically savvy and adventurous than me has investigated this.
It sounds to me like your LIN data cable to alternator test might address my question on sound system use, while ALSO mitigating the much larger complaint all of us have regarding the perpetually discharged condition of the main battery on facelift 212s. One should not have to recharge the battery after washing the car, any more than after using the sound system at rest. My battery is now 2-years old after it's last warranty replacement, so it is by no means new. But it seems to be in good shape, other than when I want to listen to my tunes.
Has anyone else adopted S-Prihadi's solution?
Unlike others, I really like the sound system in my W212. Having worked for a time in the technical side of Radio and TV production, I don't pick the system apart the way some of you armchair audiophiles do. We humans cannot hear the frequency ranges these systems develop. So I personally don't care to be harsh about any sound system, when it means substituting personal preferences for technical assessment. But enough about that. All I want to do in the current situation is run my sound system longer.
I'm not a smoker, but I wonder how many cycles of the cigarette lighter it takes to get the 3-minute warning with the engine off. Surely the cancer-stick lighter spikes more power drain each time it's used than the silly music system?
I agree, the standard Harman Kardon on my E400 is beatiful as it is. No need improvement.
With engine off or bumper to bumper traffic ( low engine and wind noise ), some great recordings playback is do-able in my car with good details.
Dont worry about our hearings, now I can only hear to 15 khz, at 40ish I can still hear to 16khz ish.
However 15khz covers all musical instruments. https://www.zytrax.com/tech/audio/audio.html
If you are in TV & Radio, I am sure you are aware of flat frequency response studio monitor speakers the studio uses as baseline.
The Harman Kardon are tuned by MB to be just that, nothing extra colorful and "fake". A good proper recording converted into even low bit 320kbps MP3 is still decent in the car using USB stick.
It is not only the sound system eating power at ignition key position 1 ( ready to crank is position 2 ), other modules are also up and running.
After car washing I may not use the car for another 1 week, hence the good practice to make battery slow full charged during the keeping and reduce chances of scale build up on the plates.
I am like 75% retired and don't go out even once a week in most months. This is why I really like doing Jakarta-Bali and return ( 1,250KM ish ), too bad pot holes now rainy season, are plenty at 1/3 of the 850ish KM paid highway
However, I make it a point to drive the car once a week if never used at all, 34KM of semi hard run is my routine.
Try for a month disconnecting the LIN cable to alternator. And often try to monitor the voltage+amperage reading offered at the instrument cluster to be familiar of the difference.
I am assumming you must also monitor voltage+amperage reading before removing the LIN to see the differences.
With LIN connector removed, a DTC will appear and stay permanently if you scan the car's ECM, but no check engine light will pop out.
The DTC will be a U code, communication error code and it will mentionstarter or alternator communication failure
I believed it was U012000, something like that. I ignore it always.
Some simple sampling.
Both are part of Jakarta-Bali road trip. 1st one in 2020 where LIN is still connected, so ECM is the algo King. Using Torrque Apps at 2HZ logging.
2nd one is LIN disconnected, trip of 2021, so the alternator own circuit is doing the conventional charging. Too bad I do not have amperage data. Using Banks gauge, 1HZ logging.
ECM based algo, its amperage is also BAD, YoYo and whacky. Alternator's own circuit, its amperage is very civilized.
Voltage drop above will always happen when my electric power steering kicks in fast and strong. Usually at U-turn or when high degree turn required.
ELECTRIC Power steering is the most sudden and unpredictable big power consumer in my car. Peaking to 60-80 amps is easy, depending on how fast you spin the steering wheel and to how many degrees.
All data are taken from fuel stop activity so that you guys can see from zero speed and low RPM.
My friend's C200 W204 of 2010 is even worse. He has to change battery every 1.5 to 2 years as maximum.
When I saw this C200 bloody ECM algo charging, it was also weird like our W212 and I seen 15.3Volts too...dang, that is scarry.
The only difference is, with low beam light activated ( old halogen type), the charging algo yoyo decreases, the same as when HVAC in full blower power.
In my E400, the ECM algo yoyo charging will decrease when HVAC in full blower power but lights even high beam does not have any effect. I am on the Intelligent LED.
S-Prihadi, Is there an existing thread in which you show (with pictures) the LIN cable, and where to disconnect it? Safe procedure, etc?
My cigarette lighters don't work without the key on, but I also sit in the car listening to music at medical facilities, my cousins chemo and my wife's physical therapy. I would also be interested in being able to leave thee radio on for 55 minutes or so, if disconnecting the LAN cable will keep the battery fully charged and let the radio stay on, I'm very interested. yes, I have earbuds, but I'm texting and answering calls and like to have the music in the background. I turn the bluetooth off to do that.
Really nicely done. Thank God for using an alternator control module with smart fallback skills and us for figuring things out - Disconnecting ALT is a good workaround to stop wasting batteries.
Surprisingly enough MB engineers still have not pinned the root cause in newer vehicles. This problem is either costly or making bundles, which is it?
Please Surya, do you think you could graph the Amperage PID out of the Hyundai LIN sometimes?
The voltage only tells part of the battery charge status.
The current Amperage display really tells about the battery charge level.
-- Low positive current (<3A): near full batt.
-- High negative currents (>50A): high discharge with abnormal alternator contribution.
All the ECU work done to manage the voltage threshold is based on Batt. charge level. I believe Bosch/Hyundai batt sensors are in charge of computing the charge level by themselves and communicate it to ECU over the network. The ECU tracks the charge but does not compute it.
When the charge current is low and the Hyundai logic is satisfied, is when the ECU switches over to a stable 12.6V flat. In absence of that:
- "Houston, we have a charging problem!"
Cali asked : Please Surya, do you think you could graph the Amperage PID out of the Hyundai LIN sometimes?
The amperage can be read using Xentry and my Autel. It is under Battery Sensor module. It can not be graphed in CSV, but simple graph of Xentry and Autel maybe possible, 120 seconds worth...kinda useless.
This data is the same as the engineering mode on instrument cluster, so best use video camera like I have always done. Kinda boring to look at, but at least we get data.
DFW asked : S-Prihadi, Is there an existing thread in which you show (with pictures) the LIN cable, and where to disconnect it? Safe procedure, etc? Unfortunately we discussed this in bits all over the place. So no.
It is easy :
This is how the LIN connector looks like, untouched. The baby small blue wire.
This is when I removed the LIN connector and protect the alternator side of the FEMALE connector from water. I have this unique double side tape which is not permanent.
I actually also covered the MALE LIN connector with the same unique double side tape to minimize water entry to the terminal and at the same time the double side tape allows the
connector to stick to alternator side
On my engine, the LIN connector is facing 3 o'clock.
I do not allow the MALE LIN connector to dangle and damage itself, just in case I may need it in the future.
The connector is the same locking mechanism standard like the camshaft magnet phasor and the camshaft position sensor.
Pull out the white lock first and press it down to allow connector housing to unlatched from the device/sensor/alternator.
Practice first with easy to reach sensor/device before doing the alternator.... if you do it without lifting the car up and removing under carriage steel plate and the other plastic protection.
Now, looking at the alternator wiring, we learn that there are only 2 cables.
1 is baby LIN data cable and 1 more is the big positive cable.
Alternator body is ground. That simple. No positive from ignition like the old days.
This alternator can manage its own charging, the LIN cable is an intervention data cable for ECM to command what it wants. That is all.
Those without B03 Start Stop may see two big positive wires at the alternator, because 2nd one is to the starter motor. This will also mean your pyro-fuse is not at the Battery Positive Post, but at the F32 Prefuse Box and is
sharing that pyrofuse with the alternator.
Anyhow, we only care about the LIN cable, ignore the others but please becareful of the big positive cable. Best to disconnect battery before you work on the alternator LIN if you have
any mettalic tool involved.
Below is my friends C200 M271 W204 year 2010, if LIN connector removed.
It is a pain to remove his LIN connector as it is pointing 6 o'clock. The dangling LIN wire and connector is much longer than mine, also the connector is different type.
Below is the same double side tape I use to protect the MALE connector, and I can cable-tie the connector to something to prevent dangling.
The C200 / M271 alternator has one odd behaviour when LIN removed.
It will only charge or produce output if the RPM is above 800ish.
At cold start due to higher 1,000ish RPM, all good.
At warm start, engine is below 800 RPM , it needed a simple 1 second throttle up blip to exceed 900ish RPM and then power/charging starts to occur. HVAC full blower or headlights has no effect ( since LIN removed anyway ).
So, just in case your alternator have this behaviour, do keep this in mind yah guys. Verify that your alternator does not behave this way.
Excellent information, S-Prihadi. I knew you discussed this "all over the place" in other threads. It's very helpful to see this focused attention, thanks.
Now all I need is to develop the courage to do it.
It will be interesting to get feedback on how well this workaround helps stretch the music playtime.
The ECU/SAM will still cut-off power based on the Hyundai battery tally. So give this sensor a quick reset to "relearn" your battery as if new.
I am not a fan of draining batteries... cycling causes them to get sulfated ie. bad. Our car application uses a "starter battery" not a "deep cycling" type. The internal plate construction is different, right?
⚡
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 03-03-2022 at 04:16 PM.
This was one of the main reasons I used the H8 instead of the stock H6, I believe my cars only charge to 80% to leave room for the regenerative braking? I live in the "Snow Belt" so 80% of 900 seems better than 80% of 700 cca's
I think it will be best to explain why I finally decided to remove the LIN data cable to the alternator.
01. It all started with I-hate-the-most ECO START STOP function which I will call B03 for sake of less typing.
I have always thought that B03 is the very reason the weird charging algo existed in the first place.
With Xentry pass-thru, I was able to KILL B03 function, so far so good.
02. Did the weird charging algo gone with B03 killed ? NO !!!
Aha........ and my friend's C200 W204 2010 without B03 option also proved that weird charging algo been always MB way of thingking it can be "greener" and its algo is already in the ECM way before B03 introduction.
So I got no choice but to remove the LIN connector after some trial run and finally decided it should be permanently disconnected.
My take on B03 option. It is a low cost solution for MB or other non hybrid car manufacturers to pay less C02 penalty aka greener car. My stupid Mazda has B03 too.
=================================
Below is why I think the weird/green charging algo are designed/written by idiots who does not really understand the simpl wet battery we are using.
Be it AGM or not, it is still wet/flooded battery and not a Lit-Ion.
01. If the designer is so smart, why would the weird charging algo is put on hold when HVAC at full blower speed ?
Take my car for example. I am on a 200 amps alternator, my car is tropical country version...meaning I do not have any winter required heaters which are power suckers.
200 amps is more than plenty, in fact it has tons of reserve power availability.
Now, if the weird charging algo is a true feed back system or SMART, why not ignore HVAC at full blower speed as I have so much alternator power reserve... why suddenly kill the weird charging algo ?
To me it seems the designer wanna play safe, because the charging algo is not that smart or kinda flawed in my personal opinion. The algo can very well be maintained and throttle up amperage with ease.
02. No wet battery chemistry likes yoyo charging the way MB does it.
Wet battery response time is slow in terms of charging acceptance. MB have violated the C0.30 or 30% of its Ah rating as proper maximum charging rule for wet battery, be it AGM or common one.
This is one of the best or the best battery maker for the US yachting industries. See the charging amperage advice. http://support.rollsbattery.com/en/s...5-agm-charging
The algo's YoYo charging amperage is BAD, I seen charging 90 amps super-kick and 40 amps medium-kick often. 95Ah battery whacked like that, hhhmmmm pitiful. 95Ah automotive rating is based on a 20 hour discharge. Keep this in mind. Suck more per hour and the battery can be come 65Ah rating or less, example traction battery for electric forklift which is rated at 5 hours discharge or thereabout. https://www.gs-yuasa.com/en/products...2017_FINAL.pdf
Engine OFF, we then listen to music and ignition key position 1 if say at 10 amps per hour, is already well above the 4.75amps hour discharge for our 95Ah AUTOMOTIVE battery rating.
03. Live calculation of true battery state of charge in such yoyo charging voltage and amperage is not something even the Hyundai battery sensor or ECM can handle, I do not think so.
Why waste time and bandwith calculating something so complex of Yoyo nature of the charging algo ? Why not do something not so YoYo ???
So those using B03 ECO Start Stop, I think will suffer more in terms of battery state of charge at engine KILL, than those without it.
I do not believe the charging algo has 2 database table which can choose if B03 is activated or not.
There is a tricky part here about B03 and or the weird charging algo in general.
When engine started and ECM with battery sensor deemed battery need charging, it will do it decently good charging, but a Yoyo amperage still....milder YoYo.
When the ECM deemed battery is enoug charged, then it is good to torture/discharge, it then will discharge often.
If you are unlucky and engine KILL is at the time period of discharging still occuring, you then get the worst of B03 algo, aka not a full state of charge of the battery.
My 50 minutes graph with ECM intervention via LIN cable on the earlier post #9 showed that super often discharging period. I was on a long trip, so battery was earlier deemed already fully charged by ECM
and the torture/discharge is then next
I posted below in May 2021, I forgot at which post.
Below shows the time/duration the ECM deemed my battery must be discharged because it was already full. The run was part of my lightweight Italian Tune Up, so kept as often at RPM 4,000 above.
This high RPM is also good for power reserve of alternator, if we are discussing the charging algo. B03 is OFF for sure, but my alternator was still ECM controlled via LIN at that time.
Discharge started at youtube 19 seconds or timecode 12:20.*** it is one of the longest & most frequent discharge I managed to document.
Also please bear in mind, the reporting of Battery Voltage and Amperage at instrument cluster is the battery's NET charging or discharging and it does not read alternator GROSS output.
Last edited by S-Prihadi; 03-04-2022 at 06:46 AM.
Reason: add info
I think the MB engineers were trying to get 1 MPG with this charging scheme, every MPG is a huge difference to the Employment Prevention Agency, EPA.
The smart charging started before ECO start/stop, my '12 has it and the Blue Efficiency logo on the fender. I like this idea for two reasons, maybe I wouldn't need a trickle charger if my battery was charged by the car to 100% ? Even if I do charge it fully, If I go for a drive, it comes back charged to 80% anyway and I would like the radio to run longer when the car is off. I also miss the "rest" button to get heat while parked with the car off, but seems that is long gone.
Weather in Dallas is supposed to be pleasant this weekend. I might decide to run the iCarsoft to clear any codes, then do some minor surgery after I top-off the battery.
Gents, in extension with trusted deep-dive Master @S-Prihadi position, here are couple extra fillers for the love of these German technology stack we share.
> Breathe - Think - Act :
One thing you can trust with us is you always get more than what you came for. We like to test our gear to learn the limits of what we can trust. Denial is never an option to hide from reality.
> YoYo evidence :
We've observed how the battery charge looks more like a YoYo than the smooth (Amp/Volts) transitions the MB-Bosch design promises. Thanks to Master @konigstiger for providing the most appropriate docs from his ventage point.
> Issues :
This is where disagreement gets involved...
- We agree the voltage regulation is out of control, we don't fully agree on the cause.
- In that context we want reliable voltage from the smooth alternator contribution to supply ALL electrical load + battery charge.
> Workaround :
Disconnecting the smart Alternator LIN control is a great way to let it act in default mode. When unplugged the W212 Valeo alternator relies on internal current shunt and voltage sensor to deliver safe outputs.
This stable (V.A) power supplies the car computers and help improve CAN threshold to noisy glitches. These cars can only run reliably on stable power and performance sucks on marginal voltages.
> Temporary relief :
Our hands-on friends will benefit from this easy temporary cure: [Reset -> Float -> Reboot!]
1- Scan the entire car and note what errors are logged then reset all faults. Go down into individual modules for reset if needed. Rescan to see no fault. Attention for best procedure goes to wingman Juan.
2- Float the MAIN battery (AUX not so bad)
This prevents glitching computers will dismal voltage during crank time. The care for great batteries goes to Master LCG and CTEK.
3- Reboot the car by disconnecting Aux/Main 5mn then reconnecting Main/Aux. Credit for this step I borrowed from Master BMW.
Rebooting these cars performs the small miracle of clearing the SAM-team to work ok for nearly 2 weeks.
> Listen to that you can't see :
- Xentry provides an overwhelming amount of information and live data. It's a fantastic tool, yet MB/Bosch/Conti engineers still produce marginal cars with no easy way to zero-in on these issues. There are countless DTC's but no watchdog code to adresses marginal timings. So reliable performance remains a hit/miss lottery.
- When you're in tune with a machine, you know how she is running. Some of us have felt the world of difference an oil change does to these engines.
- As much as my background is in abstract electronics, computers and software, real pragmatic evidence always king.
- When you listen to how a good engine idles it can tell you how the ECU is able to work the engine.
The tone of the exhaust sounds tells you how well the A/F mixture is being fired:
-- If it's rock solid with the same note: your golden.
-- If the rpm sounds like a butterfly, it sucks.
-- If it has random misses like coughing: it is sick!
-- If it has many misfires: it's peged too lean.
BTW, we're able to hear with much greater granularity than what gets tracked by law. We are pretty far from a CEL or misfiring DTC's.
Just like you can recognize good food after you've tested it, you can learn to recognize a smoothly timed engine once you heard one: "it runs like a sawing machine!!"
> Furthermore :
I like smooth performances and very much care to improve faulty systems operations.
- I claim the unsettled voltage issue is only the tip of the iceberg. The following nightmares are all related: Drains, Limp-mode, Clunky shifts, Low batts, Erratic warnings, Laggy throttle, mushy accelerator, ... including perhaps delayed oil pump pressure mgt too. This is soft-crash, corrupted data disruption, poor design integration testing or stressed reliability under impacted conditions.
- Ultimately he who brings evidence of getting regulation under control may be a step forward. I have poked many subsystems on MY'14 and got some results: stable 12.6V flat with velvet engine/tranny driveability. I need more research and poking down the funnel to gain certainties.
- When the ECU is in a better operating condition, obviously always in closed loop, the direct injectors are noticeablly "less loud" by 25% and the whole car runs differently. The transmission shifts gear like a machine gun at the perfect time (no more stupid bangs!). The engine has low end torque.
You can't miss the difference! Normally the 3.5L-V6 is pushy to move this heavy chassis.
(Love for great MB goes to Masters @pierrejoliat , DFWD, KEYO, KAJT + friends).
Stay tune to enhance driveability and performance for these stallions....
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 03-05-2022 at 04:28 AM.
This is lots of work to document the Audio System Low Voltage Cut Off. 120GB of video, 4 hours worth from 2 operating cameras.
Good thing I got 3 GoPros and so many batteries.
Please read the attached PDF, its the Engine OFF power management.
Bottom line is, below 11.80 volts , car kill the Audio System. Well actually the Audio System is the last bottom one in the Kill or Reduce-Power List.
My test parameter as follows.
01. Few days ago, I top up my battery after messing with Xentry and compression test without a battery maintainer.
02. My Varta AGM is still very new, since Oct 2021. My old battery same Varta model was okey, very slightly loosing capacity but CCA still good, but 3 years old so I use it for my back up generator.
03. Audio volume, comfort level.
I can do with ease 3 hours 45 minutes of music listening before hitting 11.8V
Those with any sort of heaters able to operate at key position 1 (music ), watch out and make sure they are off.
Those with auto light and ILS LED like mine, at key position 1 ( music ) will turn ON standing/full-parking lights...beware, this is near 3 amps power sucker. Turn it off.
Enjoy the hard work video below . I chop-chop the video to be 11 minutes only with voltage updates per 20 minutes or less where it is important.
ADD:
It seems the Instrument Cluster ( IC ) voltage reading is a safe one and surely only single digit after decimal. if DMM reads 12.39V , IC will show 12.3V
.
Later I will upload alternator charging profile with LIN disconnected, also in Video Log form.
Last edited by S-Prihadi; 03-05-2022 at 01:45 AM.
Reason: add info
03-01-2022, 11:35 AM
How to Override Comand Timeout?
. I chop-chop the video to be 11 minutes only with voltage updates per 20 minutes or less where it is important.
