Here's an American car that'll put your Benzes to shame!
#226
Originally Posted by AMG///Merc
I just wanted to add, with all due respect to Nasdaqsam**, is that up until very recently, Mercedes Benz had never attempted to match the Shelby Cobras acceleration. It just wasn't their market. I'm quite sure that if they had intended to, they could have done so many years ago...
The 300SEL 6.3 was a hot rod sedan Mercedes built in the 1960s. Here is a Car & Driver article from 1969:
Originally Posted by Car & Driver
the 6.3 is capable of turning quarter miles in the 14.2 to 14.6 second range, with speeds from 94 to 99 mph (depending on tires and track conditions). This compares favorably with most hot American super cars of the dim-bulb street racer variety, excepting such exotica as Street Hemis, 427 Corvettes and Boss 429 Mustangs, most of which have bigger engines, tighter gears and lighter bodies. Contrary to some euphoric reports from Europe, the 6.3 is hardly unbeatable in the United States stoplight G.P., but it is so strong and so stable in the upper speed ranges (80-mph and up) that comparison with all American hot stuff becomes a genuine travesty. The stability of the 6.3 at 130 mph is beyond the realm of comprehension for most drivers who have spent their time behind the wheels of domestic sedans. Even in the non pareil of American sports machinery, the Corvette, a ride in excess of 100 mph is a thrill -- knuckles whiten, eyeballs vibrate, mouths become parched -- but at similar velocities the 6.3 is merely cantering far below its limits.
In the sense that it can transport four people in speed, comfort and safety under all driving conditions, the 300 SEL 6.3 represents the absolute high water mark in automotive design. Garlits put it this way: "I own several cars that are capable of cruising at 100 mph, but myself and my passengers don't feel at ease in them at that speed. But with the Mercedes, 100 mph is virtually effortless. The car is just plain fast!."
In the sense that it can transport four people in speed, comfort and safety under all driving conditions, the 300 SEL 6.3 represents the absolute high water mark in automotive design. Garlits put it this way: "I own several cars that are capable of cruising at 100 mph, but myself and my passengers don't feel at ease in them at that speed. But with the Mercedes, 100 mph is virtually effortless. The car is just plain fast!."
Originally Posted by Road & Track
Final drive ratio is changed to 2.85:1 to give appropriate gearing for this sort of engine, and in a brief driving session with the car I recorded a 0-60 mph time of 6.5 sec and a top speed of just over 135 mph!
Originally Posted by Car & Driver
Zero to ............................................... Seconds
30 mph ............................................ 2.5
40 mph ............................................ 3.9
50 mph ............................................ 5.3
60 mph ............................................ 7.1
70 mph ............................................ 9.3
80 mph .......................................... 12.4
90 mph .......................................... 15.4
100 mph .......................................... 20.6
Standing 1/4-mile ......................... 15.7 sec @ 90.9 mph
Top speed (observed) ................................. 133 mph
70-0 mph ...................................... 207 ft (0.79 G)
30 mph ............................................ 2.5
40 mph ............................................ 3.9
50 mph ............................................ 5.3
60 mph ............................................ 7.1
70 mph ............................................ 9.3
80 mph .......................................... 12.4
90 mph .......................................... 15.4
100 mph .......................................... 20.6
Standing 1/4-mile ......................... 15.7 sec @ 90.9 mph
Top speed (observed) ................................. 133 mph
70-0 mph ...................................... 207 ft (0.79 G)
Originally Posted by Road & Track
ROAD TEST RESULTS
ACCELERATION
Time to distance, sec:
0-100 ft 3.2
0-500 ft 8.5
0-1320 ft (1/4 mi) 15.5
Speed at end of 1/4 mi, mph 92.5
Time to speed, sec:
0-30 mph 2.6
0-50 mph 5.3
0-60 mph 6.8
0-80 mph 11.5
0-90 mph 14.6
SPEEDS IN GEARS
4th gear (6000 rpm) 132
3rd (6000) 93
2nd (6000) 72
1st (6000) 48
FUEL ECONOMY
Normal driving, mpg 15.0
BRAKES
Minimum stopping distances, ft:
From 60 mph 155
From 80 mph 265
Control in panic stop very good
Pedal effort for 0.5g stop, lb 30
Fade: percent increase in pedal effort to maintain 0.5g deceleration in 6 stops from 60 mph 17
Overall brake rating excellent
HANDLING
Speed on 100-ft radius, mph 33.0
Lateral acceleration, g 0.726
Speed thru 700-ft slalom, mph 63.6
ACCELERATION
Time to distance, sec:
0-100 ft 3.2
0-500 ft 8.5
0-1320 ft (1/4 mi) 15.5
Speed at end of 1/4 mi, mph 92.5
Time to speed, sec:
0-30 mph 2.6
0-50 mph 5.3
0-60 mph 6.8
0-80 mph 11.5
0-90 mph 14.6
SPEEDS IN GEARS
4th gear (6000 rpm) 132
3rd (6000) 93
2nd (6000) 72
1st (6000) 48
FUEL ECONOMY
Normal driving, mpg 15.0
BRAKES
Minimum stopping distances, ft:
From 60 mph 155
From 80 mph 265
Control in panic stop very good
Pedal effort for 0.5g stop, lb 30
Fade: percent increase in pedal effort to maintain 0.5g deceleration in 6 stops from 60 mph 17
Overall brake rating excellent
HANDLING
Speed on 100-ft radius, mph 33.0
Lateral acceleration, g 0.726
Speed thru 700-ft slalom, mph 63.6
Motor Trend also did a nice retrospect of the hot-rodded Benzes:
Last edited by Improviz; 02-01-2005 at 11:22 AM.
#227
Originally Posted by JLLK
Improvitz, hats off to you for your stats man. What exactly are you and how old are you anyway? You really seems to be some kind of automobile prosecutor or are you some motor supergeek? You seems to know every single stats down to the very tiny little details...
It is freakish and yet amazing the way you quote things from publications from time to time without much error.. An avg 16 yr old will definately not be able to do this.. lol! Mercedes should pay you to do this man!
Long live improvitz! lol (I enjoy reading you threads man)
It is freakish and yet amazing the way you quote things from publications from time to time without much error.. An avg 16 yr old will definately not be able to do this.. lol! Mercedes should pay you to do this man!
Long live improvitz! lol (I enjoy reading you threads man)
I'm just an enthusiast (also an Engineer who is contemplating a trip through law school), and have been for years...in fact, my first area of car nuttery was American musclecars, lol! I still love them, but one simply cannot compare them to the new AMGs, nore can one compare the Benzes from that era to the AMGs either, although AMG did some tuning on some of the Benzes from that era as well!
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58 Vette, 03 Toyota LC, 05 E3204Matic "cancelled purchase"
Originally Posted by Improviz
I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous.
Originally Posted by Improviz
You want to debate using supposition??
My friend I do not want to debate anything with you. Never said I wanted to. You took it upon yourself to start the debate. I have clearly stated over and over that was not my intention yet you can not seam to grasp that. I have tried to be polite and express "MY" opinion and only "MY" opinion. If you do not like that, oh well. You obviously just love to prove how smart you are...kudos to you my friend. You obviously have a reason to try and prove to everyone just how smart you are. Go for it. Have a ball. For all your wisdom you can not see the forest through the trees.
I am sorry to have to had to match wits with such an knowledgable.....oh wait thats right I wasn't in this debate.
Hey, keep it up eventually you will have just yourself on these forums. Just think how wonderful that will be. You can write a thread then answer with how smart the poster was then write back and thank the great forsight of the poster that gave the compliment, heck you could go on forever.
I wonder why a German company with the prestige and know how such as Mercedes obvioulsy has would buy an obviously crappy little POS american company in the first place???? Things that make you go HMMMM. Will the emblem change?
You say that there is no way to compare the current AMG to the Muscle cars, I beg to differ. Lets talk about value. What did you pay for your AMG's? How much can you sell them for? I can tell you I have bought and sold 12 Corvettes and done nothing but make money in the process. I have never lost a red cent on any Corvette I have ever owned and that includes repairs and work done to them, I have done well enough to put both of my children through college on the proceeds. Can you say the same? Ya I guess your right you can not compare them. Yours will always lose money mine will always make money. Maybe again I am wrong and should go to losing money as you are far smarter than I. Link a road and track artical to that....
BTW, now that I am fully aware of how this forum works I will not be around much.
#229
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Lets talk about value. What did you pay for your AMG's? How much can you sell them for? I can tell you I have bought and sold 12 Corvettes and done nothing but make money in the process.
AMG's might be worth something in the future; but they'll have to be a few decades old first.
I don't think even the most ardent AMG owners would try to argue AMG investment value. But then again just when I think they won't defy all reason, someone steps to the plate and attempts to.
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58 Vette, 03 Toyota LC, 05 E3204Matic "cancelled purchase"
Originally Posted by tuscanraider
The AMG owners aren't claiming to buy their cars for investments; simply for driving fun. The classic Corvette buyer or restorer is a different consumer altogether.
Originally Posted by tuscanraider
AMG's might be worth something in the future; but they'll have to be a few decades old first.
Originally Posted by tuscanraider
I don't think even the most ardent AMG owners would try to argue AMG investment value. But then again just when I think they won't defy all reason, someone steps to the plate and attempts to.
#231
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
My friend I do not want to debate anything with you. Never said I wanted to. You took it upon yourself to start the debate.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
I have clearly stated over and over that was not my intention yet you can not seam to grasp that. I have tried to be polite and express "MY" opinion and only "MY" opinion.
You also used supposition to tell us that Mercedes owners are not as passionate about our cars as American car owners, and that American car owners hold on to their cars longer than Mercedes owners--without a shred of proof. You also lectured me, a former Corvette owner, that Corvette owners would rather give up their first born before selling their cars. Well, there are obviously a lot of first born children up for sale somewhere, judging by the number of 'vettes for sale in this morning's classifieds.
In other words, your opinion wasn't enough for you: you tried to express it by using facts, facts which turned out to be wrong. You can certainly have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts.
You tell us that most people don't know what an AMG badge is. Most people don't know what a "426 Hemi" badge means either. So the ignorance of the public makes a case for the superiority of American cars??
You tell us that you know people who lovingly care for their American cars and enjoy driving them, as if none of us lovingly care for our European cars and enjoy driving them.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
If you do not like that, oh well. You obviously just love to prove how smart you are...kudos to you my friend. You obviously have a reason to try and prove to everyone just how smart you are. Go for it. Have a ball.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
For all your wisdom you can not see the forest through the trees.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
I am sorry to have to had to match wits with such an knowledgable.....oh wait thats right I wasn't in this debate.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Hey, keep it up eventually you will have just yourself on these forums. Just think how wonderful that will be. You can write a thread then answer with how smart the poster was then write back and thank the great forsight of the poster that gave the compliment, heck you could go on forever.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
I wonder why a German company with the prestige and know how such as Mercedes obvioulsy has would buy an obviously crappy little POS american company in the first place????
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
You say that there is no way to compare the current AMG to the Muscle cars, I beg to differ. Lets talk about value. What did you pay for your AMG's? How much can you sell them for? I can tell you I have bought and sold 12 Corvettes and done nothing but make money in the process. I have never lost a red cent on any Corvette I have ever owned and that includes repairs and work done to them, I have done well enough to put both of my children through college on the proceeds. Can you say the same?
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Ya I guess your right you can not compare them. Yours will always lose money mine will always make money. Maybe again I am wrong and should go to losing money as you are far smarter than I. Link a road and track artical to that....
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
BTW, now that I am fully aware of how this forum works I will not be around much.
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58 Vette, 03 Toyota LC, 05 E3204Matic "cancelled purchase"
Originally Posted by Improviz
Um, no, it was YOU who came into the thread, which is a debate in and of itself,
Originally Posted by Improviz
wanting to tell all of us po' ignoant fo'k who have owned American cars how great American cars really were.
"I'm fairly new to the MBWorld forums here so maybe I am speaking out of line but it seems there is quite a bit of American automobile car bashing going on. I can appreciate all the acoomplishments of many fine auto makers I have complete respect for MB, BMW, and the rest but I feel a little respect for the US cars is in line also."
I openly admitted up front I was new to the MB world and expressed what I felt to be an injustice. You twisted it.
Originally Posted by Improviz
Yes you did express your opinion. You also made several statements to support your opinion, such as Mercedes' performance compared to Cobras, that muscle cars like the "Corvettes of yesteryear, 429 Mustang CJ, The Hemi Cuda, The super Bee" were faster than present-day Mercedes
"Lets face it how many years was it before MB actually built a production vehicle that even comes close to what Ford and Shelby created over 35 years ago. I'm not up in the specs but does MB make one today that matchs a 67 Shelby Cobra in acceleration and braking. May I add this did this with out the aid of computers and wind tunels. Is there a single MB or BMW that has a following so loyal that they created there own castings to recreate the car just so they can build and drive one? How about the Corvettes of yester year. Some of the fastest cars ever built. The 429 Mustang CJ, The Hemi Cuda, The super Bee etc etc. These cars where all built years and years ahead of what MB accomplishs today. As for the Viper, Mercedes had nothing to do with that. That was Dodges long before Mercedes came around."
I openly admitted as to not being up on the specs and ASKED the question (I thought that was what a question mark was used for) are there any today. You twisted my statements again my friend. And BTW I said SOME of the fastest, not the fastest. Get it some of not the!
Originally Posted by Improviz
that US musclecars are more collectable than European cars
Originally Posted by Improviz
You also used URL=http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=supposition]supposition[/URL]
Originally Posted by Improviz
to tell us that Mercedes owners are not as passionate about our cars as American car owners, and that American car owners hold on to their cars longer than Mercedes owners--without a shred of proof. You also lectured me, a former Corvette owner, that Corvette owners would rather give up their first born before selling their cars. Well, there are obviously a lot of first born children up for sale somewhere, judging by the number of 'vettes for sale in this morning's classifieds.
Here:
"I can appreciate all the acoomplishments of many fine auto makers I have complete respect for MB, BMW, and the rest"
Here:
"Almost all high performance cars have there good and bad points. I can appreciate a finely crafted automobile from any country"
Here:
"I fully respect and appreciate what Mercedes has accomplished (I've stated that several times now). I just bought one for what it's worth. My comments where not intended to bash another vehicle"
Originally Posted by Improviz
In other words, your opinion wasn't enough for you: you tried to express it by using facts, facts which turned out to be wrong. You can certainly have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts.
Originally Posted by Improviz
You tell us that most people don't know what an AMG badge is. Most people don't know what a "426 Hemi" badge means either. So the ignorance of the public makes a case for the superiority of American cars??
Originally Posted by Improviz
You tell us that you know people who lovingly care for their American cars and enjoy driving them, as if none of us lovingly care for our European cars and enjoy driving them.
Originally Posted by Improviz
Actually, I was trying to prove that your facts were wrong, and that your logic was as full of holes as a piece of swiss cheese. Successfully, I think, judging by the tone of your response.
Originally Posted by Improviz
Perhaps this is because you are a lousy artist, yes?
Originally Posted by Improviz
Sure could have fooled all of us.
Originally Posted by Improviz
Or maybe at one point we'll be left with only Mercedes enthusiasts,
Originally Posted by Improviz
rather than people who want to tell us how bad they think our cars are.
Originally Posted by Improviz
To aquire a lower-cost car manufacturer to expand market share and thus increase profitibility?
Originally Posted by Improviz
I dunno, that's just a guess...
Originally Posted by Improviz
maybe for that pretty Chrysler badge?
Originally Posted by Improviz
No, I cannot say the same: as pointed out to you before, my one and only Corvette was a stiff-riding, noisy, heavy POS with more mechanical problems with the other cars I owned before it combined. And it had low mileage when I bought it. And just like all noncollectable cars, it depreciated while I owned it. In fact, I've never owned a car which appreciated while I owned it, because I do not collect cars; I drive them. I put my investment portfolio in stocks and bonds, thank you very much. My cars are for entertainment and transportation.
Originally Posted by Improviz
Link any article from anywhere that states that Corvettes do not depreciate in value. If you buy a 20 year old clunker, then fix it up yourself and sell it and make some money, this hardly establishes anything other than cars in better condition sell for more than cars in junky condition.
Originally Posted by Improviz
Words cannot express my disappointment. Perhaps lecturing people using poor logic and inaccurate "facts" is not the best way to make friends with them.
Last edited by nasdaqsam; 02-01-2005 at 05:03 PM.
#234
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Wrong. I simply stated American cars deserve a little respect. Actually my statement was:
"I'm fairly new to the MBWorld forums here so maybe I am speaking out of line but it seems there is quite a bit of American automobile car bashing going on. I can appreciate all the acoomplishments of many fine auto makers I have complete respect for MB, BMW, and the rest but I feel a little respect for the US cars is in line also."
"I'm fairly new to the MBWorld forums here so maybe I am speaking out of line but it seems there is quite a bit of American automobile car bashing going on. I can appreciate all the acoomplishments of many fine auto makers I have complete respect for MB, BMW, and the rest but I feel a little respect for the US cars is in line also."
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
I openly admitted up front I was new to the MB world and expressed what I felt to be an injustice. You twisted it.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Wrong again my friend my statement was as follows:
Why don't you list the American sedans that can do this, sam? Just one, I'll wait.
While you're at it, show me any entry-level American sedan that can compete with the BMW 3 series and Mercedes C-class in terms of acceleration, handling, and braking, or any full-size American car that can compete with any AMG in terms of acceleration, braking, or handling.
Show me the last time an American performance sedan won a comparison against European competitors in any *American* car magazine.
Or how about you list the American production cars that can lap Nuerburging circuit in under 8'40", sam? If they're oh so comparable to European cars, you should be able to compile such a list, because there are plenty of European (and Japanese) cars on this list. Where are the Americans? Outside the 'vette and the GT-40, they are rather conspicuously absent.
Come on, sam...you're telling us we should respect American cars. Give us some reason to respect them. The fact is that until THIS YEAR, the American sedans weren't even ON this playing field.
You make a lot of claims, sam, but you produce not one iota of data to back them up.
Oh, and here's a little gem I'd missed:
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
U.S. auto makers that have brought quality control to a few foreign car makers. Jaguar and Range Rover to name a few
Originally Posted by Improviz
that US musclecars are more collectable than European cars
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Wrong again my friend. When and where did I say this? Show me where I actual said that US musclecars are MORE collectable than European. To my knowledge I have not used the word "European" once in this arguement you have created.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Not to mention, just how many automakers other than the U.S. can boast of having production cars that 35 years later are worth up to 100 times there original price regardless of the condition? Not many but the U.S. has a laundry list of them.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Again you are wrong and have twisted my words. I never said they are not as passionate.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Is there a single MB or BMW that has a following so loyal that they created there own castings to recreate the car just so they can build and drive one?
Not to mention, just how many automakers other than the U.S. can boast of having production cars that 35 years later are worth up to 100 times there original price regardless of the condition? Not many but the U.S. has a laundry list of them.
The point I was trying to make is that even though MB (and the rest) stats are more impressive they still do not draw the following of the American muscle car. Example: How long do you think the average length of ownership of a current model Mercedes performance car is? I would venture to guess in most cases (not all) that it is slightly longer than the last payment. A Corvette owner would give up there first born before getting rid of their car. I would further venture to say that in most cases when someone buys one of the AMG (sweet cars by the way) models it is only a short while before their discontent begins because there is a newer faster one right around the corner and they can not wait to get it. Not so with most American muscle cars. It is a love afare that lasts until you have no other choice.
Little story: My neighbor has an original Hemi Cuda. On a warm spring morning he will take her out as soon as the sun is up, take hours washing and polishing her, crank up that Hemi, the beach boys and just cruise the town. I guarantee no matter what kind of car he parks next to, their is nobody that can walk buy with out noticing or commenting on his Hemi. To many a Mercedes with an AMG emblem on the side of it means little or nothing. I have to admit until I bought my E320 and found this forum I had no idea what AMG even stood for. To me it was just another Mercedes with a nice set of rims.
Not to mention, just how many automakers other than the U.S. can boast of having production cars that 35 years later are worth up to 100 times there original price regardless of the condition? Not many but the U.S. has a laundry list of them.
The point I was trying to make is that even though MB (and the rest) stats are more impressive they still do not draw the following of the American muscle car. Example: How long do you think the average length of ownership of a current model Mercedes performance car is? I would venture to guess in most cases (not all) that it is slightly longer than the last payment. A Corvette owner would give up there first born before getting rid of their car. I would further venture to say that in most cases when someone buys one of the AMG (sweet cars by the way) models it is only a short while before their discontent begins because there is a newer faster one right around the corner and they can not wait to get it. Not so with most American muscle cars. It is a love afare that lasts until you have no other choice.
Little story: My neighbor has an original Hemi Cuda. On a warm spring morning he will take her out as soon as the sun is up, take hours washing and polishing her, crank up that Hemi, the beach boys and just cruise the town. I guarantee no matter what kind of car he parks next to, their is nobody that can walk buy with out noticing or commenting on his Hemi. To many a Mercedes with an AMG emblem on the side of it means little or nothing. I have to admit until I bought my E320 and found this forum I had no idea what AMG even stood for. To me it was just another Mercedes with a nice set of rims.
And then you woke up and jizzed into a napkin.
Originally Posted by Improviz
In other words, your opinion wasn't enough for you: you tried to express it by using facts, facts which turned out to be wrong. You can certainly have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Where and when did I quote facts. I have not once said this is a fact. Again twisting the statements.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
The point I was trying to make is that even though MB (and the rest) stats are more impressive they still do not draw the following of the American muscle car.
Example: How long do you think the average length of ownership of a current model Mercedes performance car is? I would venture to guess in most cases (not all) that it is slightly longer than the last payment.
A Corvette owner would give up there first born before getting rid of their car.
To many a Mercedes with an AMG emblem on the side of it means little or nothing.
What America builds has had a following matched by none.
Not to mention, just how many automakers other than the U.S. can boast of having production cars that 35 years later are worth up to 100 times there original price regardless of the condition? Not many but the U.S. has a laundry list of them.
Example: How long do you think the average length of ownership of a current model Mercedes performance car is? I would venture to guess in most cases (not all) that it is slightly longer than the last payment.
A Corvette owner would give up there first born before getting rid of their car.
To many a Mercedes with an AMG emblem on the side of it means little or nothing.
What America builds has had a following matched by none.
Not to mention, just how many automakers other than the U.S. can boast of having production cars that 35 years later are worth up to 100 times there original price regardless of the condition? Not many but the U.S. has a laundry list of them.
And yes, I maintain that Joe Average American doesn't know anything about hemi motors. Enthusiasts do, but enthusiasts also know about AMGs. But average people know about neither.
Originally Posted by Improviz
You tell us that you know people who lovingly care for their American cars and enjoy driving them, as if none of us lovingly care for our European cars and enjoy driving them.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Nope never said that either. Again twisted words.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
The point I was trying to make is that even though MB (and the rest) stats are more impressive they still do not draw the following of the American muscle car. Example: How long do you think the average length of ownership of a current model Mercedes performance car is? I would venture to guess in most cases (not all) that it is slightly longer than the last payment. A Corvette owner would give up there first born before getting rid of their car. I would further venture to say that in most cases when someone buys one of the AMG (sweet cars by the way) models it is only a short while before their discontent begins because there is a newer faster one right around the corner and they can not wait to get it. Not so with most American muscle cars. It is a love afare that lasts until you have no other choice.
Little story: My neighbor has an original Hemi Cuda. On a warm spring morning he will take her out as soon as the sun is up, take hours washing and polishing her, crank up that Hemi, the beach boys and just cruise the town. I guarantee no matter what kind of car he parks next to, their is nobody that can walk buy with out noticing or commenting on his Hemi. To many a Mercedes with an AMG emblem on the side of it means little or nothing. I have to admit until I bought my E320 and found this forum I had no idea what AMG even stood for. To me it was just another Mercedes with a nice set of rims.
Little story: My neighbor has an original Hemi Cuda. On a warm spring morning he will take her out as soon as the sun is up, take hours washing and polishing her, crank up that Hemi, the beach boys and just cruise the town. I guarantee no matter what kind of car he parks next to, their is nobody that can walk buy with out noticing or commenting on his Hemi. To many a Mercedes with an AMG emblem on the side of it means little or nothing. I have to admit until I bought my E320 and found this forum I had no idea what AMG even stood for. To me it was just another Mercedes with a nice set of rims.
Last edited by Improviz; 02-01-2005 at 05:28 PM.
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58 Vette, 03 Toyota LC, 05 E3204Matic "cancelled purchase"
Originally Posted by tuscanraider
....nasdaq should get a part time job as a high-school janitor, he's doing a great job mopping the floor with Improviz.
We were going to be buddies.
#237
Oh, and sam: PS:
I'm really not inclined to debate what you "really" meant with you. If you have something other than anecdotal stories of forty-year-old automobiles to support your opinion, please produce it, but I'm really not one to waste too much time arguing over semantics. People can read your posts and decide if the meaning I inferred from them was accurate or not.
Iow, unless your anticipated essay contains some useful info, I won't be wasting time composing little mini-essays to re-hash what you've already written.
Iow, unless your anticipated essay contains some useful info, I won't be wasting time composing little mini-essays to re-hash what you've already written.
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58 Vette, 03 Toyota LC, 05 E3204Matic "cancelled purchase"
Originally Posted by Improviz
I'm really not inclined to debate what you "really" meant with you. If you have something other than anecdotal stories of forty-year-old automobiles to support your opinion, please produce it, but I'm really not one to waste too much time arguing over semantics.
Originally Posted by Improviz
People can read your posts and decide if the meaning I inferred from them was accurate or not.
Iow, unless your anticipated essay contains some useful info, I won't be wasting time composing little mini-essays to re-hash what you've already written.
Iow, unless your anticipated essay contains some useful info, I won't be wasting time composing little mini-essays to re-hash what you've already written.
#239
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58 Vette, 03 Toyota LC, 05 E3204Matic "cancelled purchase"
tuscan, I told you, you were going to pee him off. You wouldn't listen though would you?
Take Care until next time..........
Take Care until next time..........
#240
as I said, nasdaqsam:
People can decide for themselves what you meant, as it is there for all to read, and determine the merit (or lack thereof) therein, as well as whether or not my analyses were correct. In fact, I'll repost the links to make it easy for them:
nasdaqsam's first post:
my response:
nasdaqsam's second post:
my response:
nasdaqsam's third post:
my response:
nasdaqsam's fourth post:
my response:
And I take it that you're ceding the following:
One more for you, sam: why is it you went back forty years rather than citing any current American offerings? Would that be because with a few notable exceptions, the current crop of American cars are largly crap?
Have a nice day.
nasdaqsam's first post:
my response:
nasdaqsam's second post:
my response:
nasdaqsam's third post:
my response:
nasdaqsam's fourth post:
my response:
And I take it that you're ceding the following:
Originally Posted by Improviz
I also showed that Mercedes currently makes full-sized luxury sedans which will outaccelerate and outbrake a Shelby Cobra, while weighing more than double the weight of the Cobra.
Why don't you list the American sedans that can do this, sam? Just one, I'll wait.
While you're at it, show me any entry-level American sedan that can compete with the BMW 3 series and Mercedes C-class in terms of acceleration, handling, and braking, or any full-size American car that can compete with any AMG in terms of acceleration, braking, or handling.
Show me the last time an American performance sedan won a comparison against European competitors in any *American* car magazine.
Or how about you list the American production cars that can lap Nuerburging circuit in under 8'40", sam? If they're oh so comparable to European cars, you should be able to compile such a list, because there are plenty of European (and Japanese) cars on this list. Where are the Americans? Outside the 'vette and the GT-40, they are rather conspicuously absent.
Come on, sam...you're telling us we should respect American cars. Give us some reason to respect them. The fact is that until THIS YEAR, the American sedans weren't even ON this playing field.
You make a lot of claims, sam, but you produce not one iota of data to back them up.
Why don't you list the American sedans that can do this, sam? Just one, I'll wait.
While you're at it, show me any entry-level American sedan that can compete with the BMW 3 series and Mercedes C-class in terms of acceleration, handling, and braking, or any full-size American car that can compete with any AMG in terms of acceleration, braking, or handling.
Show me the last time an American performance sedan won a comparison against European competitors in any *American* car magazine.
Or how about you list the American production cars that can lap Nuerburging circuit in under 8'40", sam? If they're oh so comparable to European cars, you should be able to compile such a list, because there are plenty of European (and Japanese) cars on this list. Where are the Americans? Outside the 'vette and the GT-40, they are rather conspicuously absent.
Come on, sam...you're telling us we should respect American cars. Give us some reason to respect them. The fact is that until THIS YEAR, the American sedans weren't even ON this playing field.
You make a lot of claims, sam, but you produce not one iota of data to back them up.
Have a nice day.
Last edited by Improviz; 02-01-2005 at 08:18 PM.
#241
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58 Vette, 03 Toyota LC, 05 E3204Matic "cancelled purchase"
Originally Posted by Improviz
People can decide for themselves what you meant, as it is there for all to read, and determine the merit (or lack thereof) therein, as well as whether or not my analyses were correct. In fact, I'll repost the links to make it easy for them:
nasdaqsam's first post:
my response:
nasdaqsam's second post:
my response:
nasdaqsam's third post:
my response:
nasdaqsam's fourth post:
my response:
nasdaqsam's first post:
my response:
nasdaqsam's second post:
my response:
nasdaqsam's third post:
my response:
nasdaqsam's fourth post:
my response:
And now your asking others to tell me what I meant. I have my wife for that thank you very much.
Originally Posted by Improviz
And I take it that you're ceding the following:
Originally Posted by Improviz
One more for you, sam: why is it you went back forty years rather than citing any current American offerings? Would that be because with a few notable exceptions, the current crop of American cars are largly crap?
In case you missed it in the first post I said I just bought an E3204matic. Why because I feel it is the best car for the money to meet my current needs. Damn does this mean I have to hate US cars now. Crap. Now what am I going to do? Never mind all my other posts I own an MB now and I was wrong. All US cars are crap and always were crap and will always be crap. I see the light. What was I thinking. I love Mercedes, I love Mercedes....Said in thevoice of Jim Cary in the mask.....Somebody stop me!
Originally Posted by Improviz
Have a nice day.
I'm starting to feel all warm and fuzzy inside. This was so nice.
#242
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Gee a little insulting to our loyal followers isn't it? I would think they would have been smart enough to read the posts that have gotten us to this point. Don't you?
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
I was impressed. Damn I wish I was smart enough to do that.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
And now your asking others to tell me what I meant.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Give it up. It has nothing to do with my original post. You are simply looking to continue the thread to again validate yourself.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
I know a good theropist you could call.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
I did that because those are the cars I know and love.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
In case you missed it in the first post I said I just bought an E3204matic. Why because I feel it is the best car for the money to meet my current needs. Damn does this mean I have to hate US cars now.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Crap. Now what am I going to do? Never mind all my other posts I own an MB now and I was wrong. All US cars are crap and always were crap and will always be crap. I see the light. What was I thinking. I love Mercedes, I love Mercedes....Said in thevoice of Jim Cary in the mask.....Somebody stop me!
Right back at ya big guy and many more.
I'm starting to feel all warm and fuzzy inside. This was so nice.
Right back at ya big guy and many more.
I'm starting to feel all warm and fuzzy inside. This was so nice.
Originally Posted by Improviz
Mercedes has multiple models which bone stock will run a 12.0, and as shown above, will out-accelerate and out-brake the Shelby Cobra (which btw is one of my all-time favorite cars).
Originally Posted by Improviz
I mean, I really love those old muscle cars
Originally Posted by Improviz
in fact, my first area of car nuttery was American musclecars, lol! I still love them, but one simply cannot compare them to the new AMGs...
I don't hate them, sam; I'm *disappointed* with them, as I cited in a previous example:
Originally Posted by Improviz
I mean, I really love those old muscle cars, but two things are true: 1) in those days, American manufacturers built better cars; 2) those days are gone. I mean, look at the new Pontiac GTO: it looks like a Cavalier!! This was an idiotic undertaking, and whoever thought that was a good idea should be reassigned to the mail room in Alaska in perpetuity. The new Mustang looks nice, but for god's sake, this is 2005, and it still has a solid rear axle!!
So, yes, when one company builds a "GTO" that looks like a Cavalier, and the other puts a solid rear axle on their flagship sports coupe to save a few hundred dollars a car, we shake our heads. The European manufacturers aren't immune to silly bean counters, but they seem to be more protected from them.
Otoh, I'm enheartened by the new RWD Chrysler cars (The 425 horsepower 300 SRT-8 is quite impressive), and genuinely hope that American cars will be better designed and built in the future. I'm not anti-American cars, I'm pro-quality, handling, luxury, and design.
So, yes, when one company builds a "GTO" that looks like a Cavalier, and the other puts a solid rear axle on their flagship sports coupe to save a few hundred dollars a car, we shake our heads. The European manufacturers aren't immune to silly bean counters, but they seem to be more protected from them.
Otoh, I'm enheartened by the new RWD Chrysler cars (The 425 horsepower 300 SRT-8 is quite impressive), and genuinely hope that American cars will be better designed and built in the future. I'm not anti-American cars, I'm pro-quality, handling, luxury, and design.
Oh, and you bought an E320 4Matic? Did you look at any American competitors to this vehicle? If so, what were they?
Hmm, wait a minute...I don't believe that there *are* any midsized American cars with AWD that will travel to 130 mph limited (here), 154 mph limited (Europe) and be as cool as a cucumber at that speed, stop from 70 mph in 170 feet or so, pull .85 G or so on a skidpad, and so forth...are there, sam?
Last edited by Improviz; 02-01-2005 at 08:30 PM.
#243
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2002 S55 AMG, 1990 560 SEL
Man O man, this quote and slaughter routine is really getting old, isn't it?
I call shenanigans on both of these individuals and suggest a truce - what say you guys?
Regards, Jack
I call shenanigans on both of these individuals and suggest a truce - what say you guys?
Regards, Jack
#244
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58 Vette, 03 Toyota LC, 05 E3204Matic "cancelled purchase"
Originally Posted by Improviz
Actually, I was trying to be thoughtful and save our fellow forum readers some effort.
Originally Posted by Improviz
The wonders of modern technology.
Originally Posted by Improviz
Only because you tried so vehemently to lie your way out of what you'd written previously.
Originally Posted by Improviz
Validate what? That you're a liar with the logical skills of a two year old? I've already established that.
Originally Posted by Improviz
But it is most telling, sam, that you had to resort to using a limited-production, forty year old car for acceleration, isn't it? After all, the topic of this thread was a *present-day* Cadillac, not a forty-year-old one....
Originally Posted by Improviz
No; I certainly don't. I just don't feel that they have the quality (mechanical or material), performance, build quality, fit and finish, sex appeal, and sporting nature of European cars. They're making some strong efforts to step back into the ring, a great thing in my eyes, but they're still not there--yet. But it seems as though they're getting serious about it, so we'll see how it goes.
Originally Posted by Improviz
Hmm, what was it you said about twisting words? I believe I pointed out already in this thread that the Shelby Cobra was one of my all-time favorite cars, yes?
Originally Posted by Improviz
yea spoken like a true American car hater, lol...
I don't hate them, sam; I'm *disappointed* with them, as I cited in a previous example:
I don't hate them, sam; I'm *disappointed* with them, as I cited in a previous example:
Originally Posted by Improviz
Someone needs to read more carefully
Originally Posted by Improviz
Oh, and you bought an E320 4Matic? Did you look at any American competitors to this vehicle? If so, what were they?
Originally Posted by Improviz
Hmm, wait a minute...I don't believe that there *are* any midsized American cars with AWD that will travel to 130 mph limited (here), 154 mph limited (Europe) and be as cool as a cucumber at that speed, stop from 70 mph in 170 feet or so, pull .85 G or so on a skidpad, and so forth...are there, sam?
Impro, You seem like a nice enough guy, you just don't know when to stop or how to control yourself.
You stepped over the line calling me names. I do not take things like that lightly. You sir, were out of line. As I said you do not know me and saying the things you have said to the wrong person could land you in some serious trouble. I have had some fun with this so I am going to let it go.
On a serious note:
If you truely do wish to be an attorney some day, something I have a lot of experience with, I will offer this advise to you. You are to addiment in trying to prove your point. Facts have little to nothing to do with how a trial will turn out. Especially since any compitent trial lawyer can and will turn them around on you. It is what you can make the jury "believe" not what "you" believe. Losing your cool and resorting to name calling for any reason is a sure way to loss a case and your credibility. Your a pretty smart guy you should know by now a persons opinion is theirs and you do not have to share it nor is it your responsibility to prove it wrong no matter how much they disagree with your position on a given subject.
I wise man once said never fight with a fool they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Take Care man your going to need it. If you keep talking to people like you do some day someone is going to give you a tune up you will never forget.
Last edited by nasdaqsam; 02-01-2005 at 09:16 PM.
#245
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
You are a true gentlemen. I'm sure I speak for everybody in thanking you.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Your so smart I wish I could grow up to be just like you. to bad you do not know when someone is playing with you.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
I will not take your very harsh words personnally as that is the usual way people like you react when you have nothing left to say. BTW, I did not know it was possible to lie about an opinion. One more thing since you brought it up about being a lawyer. You might want to look up what can be done to you for defaming someone in a public forum. You obviously have a lot to learn.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
You have established nothing other than the fact that you have no tolerance and can only resort to name calling.
Which is why I suspect you're angry, and have now resorted to threatening me.
Originally Posted by Improviz
But it is most telling, sam, that you had to resort to using a limited-production, forty year old car for acceleration, isn't it? After all, the topic of this thread was a *present-day* Cadillac, not a forty-year-old one....
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
That part of this thread died long ago. Retoric at best.
Originally Posted by Improviz
yea spoken like a true American car hater, lol...
I don't hate them, sam; I'm *disappointed* with them, as I cited in a previous example:
I don't hate them, sam; I'm *disappointed* with them, as I cited in a previous example:
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
I did not say you hated them.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Damn does this mean I have to hate US cars now. Crap. Now what am I going to do? Never mind all my other posts I own an MB now and I was wrong. All US cars are crap and always were crap and will always be crap. I see the light. What was I thinking. I love Mercedes, I love Mercedes....Said in thevoice of Jim Cary in the mask.....Somebody stop me!
Originally Posted by Improviz
Oh, and you bought an E320 4Matic? Did you look at any American competitors to this vehicle? If so, what were they?
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Only one. The Chrysler 300. I wanted all wheel drive for my wifes safety and there are no american cars currently built that compared to the E320 4matic in my opinion.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Impro, You seem like a nice enough guy, you just don't know when to stop or how to control yourself.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
You stepped over the line calling me names. I do not take things like that lightly. You sir, were out of line.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
As I said you do not know me and saying the things you have said to the wrong person could land you in some serious trouble. I have had some fun with this so I am going to let it go.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
On a serious note:
If you truely do wish to be an attorney some day, something I have a lot of experience with, I will offer this advise to you. You are to addiment in trying to prove your point. Facts have little to nothing to do with how a trial will turn out. Especially since any compitent trial lawyer can and will turn them around on you. It is what you can make the jury "believe" not what "you" believe. Losing your cool and resorting to name calling for any reason is a sure way to loss a case. Your a pretty smart guy you should know by now a persons opinion is theirs and you do not have to share it or try nor is it your responsibility to prove it wrong no matter how much they disagree with your position on a given subject.
If you truely do wish to be an attorney some day, something I have a lot of experience with, I will offer this advise to you. You are to addiment in trying to prove your point. Facts have little to nothing to do with how a trial will turn out. Especially since any compitent trial lawyer can and will turn them around on you. It is what you can make the jury "believe" not what "you" believe. Losing your cool and resorting to name calling for any reason is a sure way to loss a case. Your a pretty smart guy you should know by now a persons opinion is theirs and you do not have to share it or try nor is it your responsibility to prove it wrong no matter how much they disagree with your position on a given subject.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
I wise man once said never fight with a fool they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Originally Posted by nasdaqsam
Take Care man your going to need it. If you keep talking to people like you do some day someone is going to give you a tune up you will never forget.
Last edited by Improviz; 02-01-2005 at 09:42 PM.