RichDMB

It's not in the owner's manual or on this site. Which viscosity is recommended? I'm in the northeastern part of the US which gets both really cold and hot.

kevm14

I'm in the northeast. I run M1 0W-40 Euro and have no complaints.

BOTUS

not that these are modern

the old world designations and numbers on a bottle of Oil are history - ALL major car companies use slightly modified specs for the chocolate componentry they now put inside their engines - YOU MUST use Manu spec, not any crap that says expensive synthetic

castrol edge 5w30 M meets merc latest spec 229.52 as sold in costco (in the UK) - NOT the cheaper castrol edge 5w30 LL that only meets the vintage merc spec 229.51 for the early w221 (NOTE: the later spec reduces cam bucket rattle and does better MPG)

kevm14

Isn't 229.51 and 229.52 really for diesels? I know M1 0W-40 Euro is not high end oil but I have no oil consumption or funny noises with it so good enough for my M273. Also it's available literally everywhere and is cheap. I am not sure that Castrol M is even available in the US so there's that, too.

That said, if 229.52 is worth considering, Pennzoil Platinum Euro LX 0W-30 might eek out slightly better mpg than that Castrol, and is not expensive.


Side note, back in the day I was hooked on Castrol Edge 0W-30 (so-called "German Castrol") to use in my various American vehicles. I gave away 18 quarts when I sold my last vehicle that could run that oil.

BOTUS

nope its really written in your owners manual as that what its meant to have in there...
and as a choice to input when serviced to highest spec - to alter the algorithm for the service light

kevm14

Yes and my choices are 229.5 or 229.3.

BOTUS

I have always used 229.51 spec oil but from 60k I have a distinct slappy tappet at idle..

as I muddled what I bought on a deal and it then sat for a year they wouldn't return (at UK Costco - we get BOTH the LL and M side by side they almost look identical on the shelf) so my car is currently on 50% LL and 50% M and the slappy tappet stopped instantly and 2k miles on its not returned

BOTUS

229.3 is budget junk for washing machines or 40 year old cement mixers

they have got really sillly with oil spec SAE std no longer have any ability to define differences for what car manu are doing
ACEA tried and made it so complicated they have 9 bottles of confusion that cover one SAE std and no one knows what any of them are
Much of the change all faked under emission lies - was a deliberate change by manu to help owners destroy engines by using the wrong oil

just go with the gobbledygook in the owners manual

Ford Wet Cam BELT - self destructs unless the correct oil is used - the belt inside the engine falls to bits (10hr labour charge to fit a new one - new engine when you miss an oil change !!!)
Merc duplex cam chains - swapped for chocolate single roller chains now doing 25 times as many start stop cycles, is likely what 229.52 is really designed for !!!
VAG using chocolate pistons etc...
GM already went bust in 2009 trying the same idea with anti-freeze (did a crooked deal to recover as New GM debt free - stole US$10+ billion off the tax payers)


,.

kevm14

BITOG tells me the Pennzoil Platinum Euro LX 0W-30 (US market) is the same as Shell Helix Ultra ECT C2/C3 0W-30 (other markets).

doni01

iTrader: (1)

Same here. I use the Liqui Moly 5x40 which is 229.5 Wonder if we really would get any benefits by switching to 229.52 🤔
BTW mine is the m278 engine...

kevm14

The whole oil debate is non-trivial. What I mean by that is, as newer specs come out, SOMETIMES they match my priorities and SOMETIMES they do not. When a new spec places a BIG emphasis on fuel economy and emissions for example, sometimes sacrifices are made in other areas that I would not accept. You have to do the research. Engines in general (not even oils) over the past 10-15 years have made CLEAR engine longevity sacrifices to gain fuel economy and emissions performance (tradeoffs that MANY consumers would not actually make if given the choice - too bad, the government made the choice for us). Oil specs sort of follow this trend, with exceptions (over time, oils get better, generally).

Personally, I think I care the most about engine longevity - from cold starts to just mileage overall. I care less about fuel economy and emissions. Obviously I draw the line somewhere - I would not accept fouling my catalysts just to gain some theoretical longevity benefit.

kevm14

Coincidentally I am looking at the US owner's manual for a 2017 GLS. For oil requirements, it shows 229.5 for gas engines. For the 350d it shows 228.51, 229.31, 229.51, 229.52. So.....I'll ask again, aren't the 229.5x for diesels?

BOTUS

the oil I mentioned meeting that spec Castrol Edge 5w30 M is for either real engines or tractors

as is the OEM stuff

https://mercedesgenuineparts.co.uk/p...diesel-engines

Genuine Mercedes-Benz Engine Oil 229.52 SAE 5w-30 for petrol and diesel engines

This oil has been designed by Mercedes-Benz specifically for Mercedes-Benz vehicles.
Developed to ensure your engine runs smoothly and with Mercedes Benz efficiency.
The only oil recommended by the experts who built your engine.

MB229.52 is a premium oil designed to optimise fuel economy for the latest generation of petrol engines equipped with modern emission control systems.
Good cold starting performance, low oil consumption and minimised exhaust emissions.

• The first oil to deserve the Mercedes-Benz star
• Developed to the exacting technical specifications of Mercedes-Benz
• Optimises engine performance through reduced internal friction
• Minimises engine wear resulting in optimal engine service life
• Maximises fuel efficiency

Shadly1

Diesel oil typically contains zinc. I use diesel oil in my '73 Pontiac so I don't have to buy an additive. Zinc will clog a catalytic converter. I don't know what the Mercedes stuff has in it if it's not Zinc. Any diesel additive I can think of will clog a catalytic converter.

BOTUS

we've had CAT's on cars for nearly 50 years - and oils that worked quite well with them since 2005

what they have done recently (last 5 years) is re-engineer modern oils to self destruct to a time line - so they removed the additives we had in posh oil from 1990s to 2015 that meant you could have an oil that was basically ageless when not in use, and could cope with untold amounts of abuse on old school engine designs and materials with minimal wear

now we have oils where they removed all the old additives that made posh oils almost invincible and created minimal wear inside, to ones where all that's been junked - for fragile, volatile additives, that work better for a short while - allegedly as the emission system couldn't cope with the old additives - and in comes the problems - the later oils have a shelf life of 2 years and then starts to degrade - but to make sure you use it, NOW they have started to re-engineer the engine materials used to suit the later oils - and the idea is modern engines are NOT backwards compatible with older engine oils.... (don't forget the point about newer oils are actually better but just less age resilient - hence why using it has removed the slappy tappet noise on my car that goes away when using 229.52)

hence why in post 3, I said

the old world designations and numbers on a bottle of Oil are history - ALL major car companies use slightly modified specs for the chocolate componentry they now put inside their engines - YOU MUST use Manu spec, not any crap that says expensive synthetic

nath_h

Okay, can someone bottom line this for me? I should put Mobil 1 0w-40, Castrol Edge 0w40, or ? in my 2008 M273? I change it about every nine months or so, for safe measure.

kevm14

I think either of those will work just fine. I have no oil consumption or funny noises on M1 0W-40 Euro that can be purchased everywhere cheaply so I will continue running it. I am well aware that there are better oils but I do not think the M273 requires anything crazy.

BOTUS

My manual of 2007, 273 V8 the first column of recco oils 0-30 or 5-30 to MB 229.5 spec - covers the same ambient temp range as the X-40 grade oils in the second, less suitable column
Only the S65AMG specifies it should use X-40 grade, on all others its a secondary option for all the tractors the v8s and the v12s

MB 229.5 specification is for fuel economy and extended oil change intervals (vehicles from 2002 onwards) with service indicators. With stricter requirements than ACEA A3/B3. For use in all petrol and diesel engines, also complies with MB 229.1 and MB 229.3 specifications.

MB 229.51 specification is for very high performance oil for engines with TWC or diesel particle filters and extended oil change intervals. Better fuel economy than mb 229.5.

MB 229.52 specification is for very high performance oil for engines with TWC or diesel particle filters and extended oil change intervals

the change was from High SAPS old world additives (aka proven traditional anti wear additives: sulphated ash, phosphorus and sulphur) to Low SAPS modern stuff....
incidentally, premium brand fully synthetic high saps 40 grade did nothing whatsoever to help the cam bucket rattle on mine

I have found a bit related to kevm14's point, the 1 at the end was added with changes to Low SAPS so it became compatible for TWCs in petrol vehicles and DPF's fitted on the tractors
I would hazard a guess the 2 of the latest spec at the end is bringing better capability for ethanol trash fuel - one guy saying he knows what he's talking about says 229.51 isn't good if ethanol in petrol is 10% or more

MB appear to have taken down their decent listing of what can go in what cars for what reason...

Why SAE no longer manages the mess - hence no longer applies - can be seen in the European standards mess from ACEA re whats out there today...ACEA (the European Automobile Manufacturers Association) have a system of rating oils, which you will find on the container of almost every oil on the market
-

ACEA Specifications - Standard Petrol and Diesel Engines

• ACEA A: petrol (gasoline) engines
• ACEA B: diesel engines with low levels of exhaust gas recirculation (EGR)
• ACEA C: engines with after-treatment devices, such as diesel particulate filters (DPFs) or three-way catalysts (TWCs).
• ACEA E: heavy-duty diesel engines

-

ACEA A1/B1

engine oils are low-viscosity, low friction oils for use at extended drain intervals in petrol engines and car & light van diesel engines. They are designed for fuel economy, with especially low High Temperature High Shear viscosity. HTHS of 2.6 to 3.5 mPas applies to XW-20, 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.s for all others. Corresponds to the old A1 and B1 specifications with some new engine tests
-

ACEA A2/B2

OBSOLETE - Basic requirements. Will be replaced by the GLOBAL DLD-1 specification.
.

ACEA A3/B3

Category for high-performance and Fuel Economy engine oils. Exceeds ACEA A1/B1 with regard to Noack (evaporation losses), piston cleanliness and oxidation stability. Extended oil change intervals possible.
Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use in high performance petrol engines and car & light van diesel engines and/or for extended drain intervals where specified by the engine manufacturer, and/or for year-round use of low viscosity oils, and/or for severe operating conditions as defined by the engine manufacturer
.

ACEA A3/B4

Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use in high performance petrol and direct injection diesel engines, but also suitable for applications described under A3/B3
-

ACEA A5/B5

Category for high-performance engine oils. For TDI engines with Fuel Economy Performance. In addition with lowered HTHS (2.9 to 3.5 mPas). Extended oil change intervals possible.
Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use at extended drain intervals in high performance petrol engines and car & light van diesel engines designed to be capable of using low friction low viscosity oils with a High temperature / High shear rate (HTHS) viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPas.
-

ACEA A5/B6 and A6/B6

... are not adopted ACEA standards.
-

ACEA A7/B7

engine oil offers increased protection against timing chain wear, turbocharger compressor deposits, and LSPI (Low Speed Pre-Ignition) issues. These are critical factors that can lead to engine damage if not addressed properly. By using A7/B7 oil, you can provide your engine with enhanced protection, ensuring optimal performance and longevity. For the technically minded, ACEA A7/B7 oils have an HTHS viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPas - the same as ACEA A5/B5.
-

Low SAPS for Cars with TWC or Diesel DPFs

An additional category appears in these specifications in which sulphate ash, phosphorous and sulphur content (SAPS) are limited.
-

ACEA C1 - OBSOLETE - Withdrawn by ACEA

Largely based on the ACEA A5/B5. Strict limitation of SAPS content. Low HTHS viscosity of >2.9 mPas.
Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use as catalyst compatible oil in vehicles with DPF and TWC in high performance car and light van diesel and petrol engines requiring low friction, low viscosity, low SAPS oils with a minimum HTHS viscosity of 2.9 mPas. These oils will increase the DPF and TWC life and maintain the vehicles fuel economy.
-

ACEA C2

Same as C1 but with somewhat higher SAPS content permissible (as with C3).
Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use as catalyst compatible oil in vehicles with DPF and TWC in high performance car and light van diesel and petrol engines designed to be capable of using low friction, low viscosity oils with a minimum HTHS viscosity of 2.9mPa.s. These oils will increase the DPF and TWC life and maintain the vehicles fuel economy.
-

ACEA C3

Same as C2 except for HTHS > 3.5 and without Fuel Economy performance.
Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use as catalyst compatible oil in vehicles with DPF and TWC in high performance car and light van diesel and petrol engines, with a minimum HTHS viscosity of 3.5mPa.s. These oils will increase the DPF and TWC life.
-

ACEA C4

Same SAPS content as C3, HTHS viscosity as C1.
Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use as catalyst compatible oil in vehicles with DPF and TWC in high performance car and light van diesel and petrol engines requiring low SAPS oil with a minimum HTHS viscosity of 3.5 mPa.s. These oils will increase the DPF and TWC life

-
ACEA C5

oils are high performance, lower SAPS lubricants.
The primary goal of ACEA C5 oils is increased fuel economy in high performance petrol and diesel engines in passenger cars where advanced after-treatment systems such as Diesel Particulate Filters and Three Way Catalysts are used. HTHS viscosity must be in the range 2.6 to 2.9mPa.s (i.e. low) - typically SAE 0W-20 or 5W-20 and made with Group III base oils.
-

ACEA C6

adds eight tests, which build on the performance levels set by ACEA C5, whilst introducing new fuel economy testing. The added tests focus on Low Speed Pre-Ignition (LSPI), Turbo Charger Wear and Turbo Charger Compression Deposit (TCCD) protection. And ensures compatibility with certain emission control systems, by demanding particular mid-SAPS properties. Intended for use where advanced aftertreatment systems such as DPFs and TWC are used, in high performance petrol and light duty diesel engines with extended service intervals. ACEA C6 oils feature a low minimum HTHS viscosity of 2.6mPa.s.
-
Key:

• DPF: Diesel Particulate Filter.
• HTHS: High temperature / High shear rate viscosity.
• mPas: millipascal-second, a unit of measurement used to express dynamic viscosity.
• SAPS: Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus, Sulphur.
• TWC: Three way catalyst.
• Viscosity: a measure of a fluid's resistance to flow; it plays a crucial role in engine lubrication.

johnnyrocket52

Hi Botus, Outstanding presentation of the oil data.

Before starting my first oil change at 80k mi on my 2009 S600 V-12, I got on the forum, internet, and started reading up. The USA S600 had stamped on top of the motor, use Mobil 1. I have used mostly Mobile 1 full synthetic for many years of my driving.

Read unanimously on the forum and good old internet, the V-12 likes the 40 viscosity under normal operating temps, and the 0 viscosity assists those cold starts in the harsh cold winter weather in Europe/USA,

More reading showed the European Car Formula has got it all for lubricants and the right additives to provide good cold starts and bring a long life to the motor.

The M1 European Car Formula and M1 High Mileage, both claimed in writing on the bottles: “10,000mi protection in between oil changes”. Further read these are very equal to the European Car Formula made in Europe. The 0-40 M1 European Car Formula and all other European Car Formulas were out of stock that day in the Autozone, had to be ordered, and here next week.

Departed Autozone with 10 us Quarts 0-40 M1 High Mileage oil, MB oil filter and oring kit.

I missed ordering the one time use brass washer on the drain plug. Have a minor leak there.

Oil is good to go for another 5k miles.

JR

ChrisHimself

5w40
0w40
it even says 5w30 is ok as long as its european formula (it's a specific ratio of additives to keep the cats clean, it's a bit of an outdated spec honestly since most modern oils work with emissions equipment)

anything with the 229.5 approval is good

you will not notice a difference between viscosities nor will the car at operating or cold temps. The cars are designed to start and fully function in hot and subzero climates year-round.

BOTUS

I have used Mobil One on some vehicles - the first iteration was a major step change in oil circa 1990 (?) .... we had the advert where they put a 5mm film in a baking tray and heated it up - the best old oils turned back to dead dinosaurs, and Mobil one carried on looking like and flowing like engine oil

The change came from better temperature capability and stability - with the process that gets us what they call synthetic. Its not synthetic at all, its just a method of filtering out (refining) more of the rubbish, leaving just the posh stuff. When you get the dinosaurs out of the ground its usually a mess of tar that smells interesting... as they play distilling it it separates out - dinosaurs for the road's TARMAC from down the bottom, and still in liquid form, rocket fuel aromatics at the top (AKA toluene)

The difficulty is technology changes and Mobil kept the name alive - rather than creating a new one for the later better products - we have many very different Mobil One products out there... the early stuff, which for some engines will be less suitable than budget stuff from the supermarket !!! all the way to still having some versions of Mobil One as some of the best oil you can get...

So its not the brand, not the name, not the price, but whether that bottle really contains a good version of oil that meets the spec that best suits the engine you have. Most products we buy today are either fakes (which you mostly can't spot), or new world rubbish at crazy prices sold by the once good companies that have turned in to criminals (mostly from greed, but occasionally to compete with Chinese fakes).

When cars moved to electroplate cyl bores (rather than good old cast iron), the world of fuel and lubricants needed to change (but no one knew it at the time). Electroplated material on the bores fell apart on the early engines on both Mercs and BMWs (BMW moved from nikasil in 1996 after crashing its reputation world wide - by 1988 they used to swap engines at servicing without telling owners). I think there's another name (I haven't found) that Merc moved to. And the early stuff wasn't on any 221... It was mostly sulphur content in fuel that killed the early coatings (and I guess in oils - I believe, but can't confirm its part of the change from High SAPs oil) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alusil - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma...ermal_spraying

As for 30 or 40... I can think of a good reason for 30 weight, more power and efficiency... yes many manus these days are criminals, but some of the engineers still have a clue.
Oil flows and it needs to reach the bits its lubricating and cooling quickly, then disappear fast ready for the next bit. In other areas its sprayed on to the base of the piston and cyl bore to cool and protect. A 30 weight gets there quicker and goes back to the sump quicker (and in the case of the piston and bores will get out the way far better, reducing oil consumption and putting much less stress on the piston rings so the engine lasts longer). Thus, as long as it lubricates correctly, it will be better at doing this than a 40 weight.

And Yes, I agree we get a 60 weight for BMW M cars - its all about the design of internals, the entire lubrication system they built, and which compromises they are erring towards... i.e. all year operation with many starts and lazy oil level checking, vs careful warm up and then utter abuse on a race track - where longevity is irrelevant, its just not going bang that's more important than the costs involved in achieving how it doesn't. Don't forget many engines have moved to a 20 weight oil today - as we run more efficiently and have far better machining and testing processes - the crud that would contaminate and damage old oils is either not there to start with, and or burnt, so not going into the sump where we once had to have massive clearances for the pump (to let the bits pass) and to fill up the gaps on the shell bearing after some blunt tooling piece and poorly refined alloys of old world metals made a moonscape on the journals...

A lot of the issue is we as human's don't know everything, and don't move with the times regarding motor vehicles and the fast change they are going through like most other things... And the manus are happy you put 10 40 in there when it needs 0 20 as they are sort term, money focused environmental vandals...

I sincerely believe the left most column of the merc manual is the one they expect you to use for multiple good reasons - but I also believe with a continuous improvement philosophy so long at its suitability backwards compatible, moving your Oil to later better specs that manu has now is the right thing...

indeed BMW on the bikes in 2012 moved all their bike engines to one of 2 grades and one spec https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2013/MC-10150157-9999.pdf

kevm14

That is an interesting graphic.

BOTUS

not as interesting at this bit (below) I just improved and split out - leaving why 60 and 20 weight work in some cases on a new paragraph below on the original post

As for 30 or 40... I can think of a good reason for 30 weight, more power and efficiency... yes many manus these days are criminals, but some of the engineers still have a clue.
Oil flows and it needs to reach the bits its lubricating and cooling quickly, then disappear fast ready for the next bit. In other areas its sprayed on to the base of the piston and cyl bore to cool and protect. A 30 weight gets there quicker and goes back to the sump quicker (and in the case of the piston and bores will get out the way far better, reducing oil consumption and putting much less stress on the piston rings so the engine lasts longer). Thus, as long as it lubricates correctly, it will be better at doing this than a 40 weight.

Arrie

This thread has turned to a science lecture so I try ti give a simple answer.

Your post clearly indicates you are wondering about the oil viscosity for the outside temperature. 0W-40 covers the whole range for you, like it covers fir me too.

I live in south so I could and at times have moved the lower number up. I really don’t need the “0” as it never gets that cold here and my dealer actually used 10W-40 oil for oil changes on my E550. I use 0W-40 if it is available, sometimes 5W-40 if “zero” is not there.

For you I would use 0W-40 at all times as it covers the whole temperature range and you actually need it too.

There is a chart in the manual indicating oil viscosities for outside temperatures.

Senecat

Doesn't really matter as long as it GETS changed. Oil interval at 5k mi with standard stuff (EVERYTHING is in the Owner's Manual, btw) and you're gtg.