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I recall. In fairness, I have my gripes with every car. I greatly disliked the fake piano black in the 580 for instance, it the ridiculously ineffectual seat ventilation in the current car. A lot of people think the 911 is perfect, I never liked the look from the rear, and depending on the year, any perspective. It's a long list, which I hope will continue to grow; it means I lived long enough to sample another car.
I could live with the crystal, it's mostly the front that makes me wince. Better on the EV, and I mean no insult when I say it's not for me, but it's not.
@Streamliner Have you considered the latest gen Panamera E-Hybrid's with Porsche Active Ride? The facelifted Taycan also offers it as an option but the Taycan's build quality is so poor. I was in my friend's the other day and the interior squeaks so much when driving, just day to day city driving and not even accelerating hard.
BMW's AC and climate comfort glass has always been an issue. Anything above blower speed 2 is way too loud in my 7 and leaving the car in the sun for even just an hour feels like a sauna. Max AC takes forever to cool down the interior to a comfortable level. The IR reflecting glass from MB, especially the one with a metallic blue sheen on an S class or an older X164 GL550 rejects heat so much better
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
Originally Posted by 5634MG
@Streamliner Have you considered the latest gen Panamera E-Hybrid's with Porsche Active Ride? The facelifted Taycan also offers it as an option but the Taycan's build quality is so poor. I was in my friend's the other day and the interior squeaks so much when driving, just day to day city driving and not even accelerating hard.
BMW's AC and climate comfort glass has always been an issue. Anything above blower speed 2 is way too loud in my 7 and leaving the car in the sun for even just an hour feels like a sauna. Max AC takes forever to cool down the interior to a comfortable level. The IR reflecting glass from MB, especially the one with a metallic blue sheen on an S class or an older X164 GL550 rejects heat so much better
I have not considered the Panamera in any variation. To me, they are four door sports cars and I have never really cared for them, but thanks for the suggestion.
Just to be clear, this is the most successful 7 Series in a long time, and it is outselling the S Class which never happens. So clearly, lots of people disagree.
That is shocking.... and interesting...
According to the numbers I can find:
The new G12 model introduced in 2016 sold 13,000 units in the US that year.
The new G70 model introduced in 2023 sold 11,000 units in the US that year.
And in 2024, we are almost to September, they have sold 5,000 units in the US so far this year.
Just to be clear, this is the most successful 7 Series in a long time, and it is outselling the S Class which never happens. So clearly, lots of people disagree.
The new G12 model introduced in 2016 sold 13,000 units in the US that year.
The new G70 model introduced in 2023 sold 11,000 units in the US that year.
And in 2024, we are almost to September, they have sold 5,000 units in the US so far this year.
Care to share your stats...?
Bear in mind sedan sales are falling, so every year they are going to sell less. S Class is the same. 2016 may as well be a generation ago.
Look it up on Goodcarbadcar,
Through June:
S Class
7 Series
Originally Posted by W205C43PFL
but the 7 series figures includes the i7 right?
It does, but S Class sales include the Maybach variants, 7 no longer has the V12 or the Alpina. There are always different models. The EQS and S Class are not the same car, for instance I would never consider an EQS but would an i7...have to compare model to model.
The hate for this car is largely online. I know a couple people who have them and they say they get tons of comments and compliments, more than other cars they have had. In the time I have had my S580 not one person has commented on it in the wild.
Bear in mind sedan sales are falling, so every year they are going to sell less. S Class is the same. 2016 may as well be a generation ago.
Look it up on Goodcarbadcar,
Through June:
S Class
7 Series
It does, but S Class sales include the Maybach variants, 7 no longer has the V12 or the Alpina. There are always different models. The EQS and S Class are not the same car, for instance I would never consider an EQS but would an i7...have to compare model to model.
The hate for this car is largely online. I know a couple people who have them and they say they get tons of comments and compliments, more than other cars they have had. In the time I have had my S580 not one person has commented on it in the wild.
Bear in mind sedan sales are falling, so every year they are going to sell less. S Class is the same. 2016 may as well be a generation ago.
Look it up on Goodcarbadcar,
Through June:
S Class
7 Series
It does, but S Class sales include the Maybach variants, 7 no longer has the V12 or the Alpina. There are always different models. The EQS and S Class are not the same car, for instance I would never consider an EQS but would an i7...have to compare model to model.
The hate for this car is largely online. I know a couple people who have them and they say they get tons of comments and compliments, more than other cars they have had. In the time I have had my S580 not one person has commented on it in the wild.
I feel like this movie has played before
The S-Class sells more cars than BMW selling its ICE version of the 7 series.. I would say that while 7 series sales improved, it has at no point surpassed the S-Class. To compare i7 sales with US S-Class Maybach sales is also a stretch. Maybach is extremely strong but the majority are Asian sales. Add a couple hundred in the US as most Maybach's sold in the US are SUV's.
We know that there was a 40+% blip on i7 sales of all 7 series sales sometime in 2023 but one can count on a 15% share for the EV's. We will obviously know more once these sales are broken out.
While you don't to see the EQS as a S-Class EV equivalent, Mercedes does and that is what matters. MB has separate platforms for ICE/EV while BMW has multi-platform models. Either you compare all together or you have to recognize that the i7's must be deducted from the7 Series ICE sales.
This has nothing to do with hating on models. I wish both brands great success but the S-Class and the 7 Series are taking a beating in 2024. The Genesis G90 sold a total of 809 cars so far so they are not going anywhere either.
Bear in mind sedan sales are falling, so every year they are going to sell less. S Class is the same. 2016 may as well be a generation ago.
It does, but S Class sales include the Maybach variants, 7 no longer has the V12 or the Alpina. There are always different models. The EQS and S Class are not the same car, for instance I would never consider an EQS but would an i7...have to compare model to model.
The hate for this car is largely online. I know a couple people who have them and they say they get tons of comments and compliments, more than other cars they have had. In the time I have had my S580 not one person has commented on it in the wild.
Thanks for the stats!
They don't really show the new 7 Series (740/750, etc.) outselling the new S Class (and even then, barely) - do they...?
As stated, those figures include the i7.
And you really can't compare i7 sales to a Maybach sales, can you...?
The Maybach cost twice as much and sells a lot less...?
And I, and others I know have seen the new 7 Series in person as well - and I can find no one I know that looks at it and says - now that is luxury - either the inside or out.
Is it "different" - definitely.
Is it "luxurious" - not so much.
Let's hope Dima is right and BMW changes it in the refresh for the better.
The S-Class sells more cars than BMW selling its ICE version of the 7 series.. I would say that while 7 series sales improved, it has at no point surpassed the S-Class. To compare i7 sales with US S-Class Maybach sales is also a stretch. Maybach is extremely strong but the majority are Asian sales. Add a couple hundred in the US as most Maybach's sold in the US are SUV's.
We know that there was a 40+% blip on i7 sales of all 7 series sales sometime in 2023 but one can count on a 15% share for the EV's. We will obviously know more once these sales are broken out.
While you don't to see the EQS as a S-Class EV equivalent, Mercedes does and that is what matters. MB has separate platforms for ICE/EV while BMW has multi-platform models. Either you compare all together or you have to recognize that the i7's must be deducted from the7 Series ICE sales.
This has nothing to do with hating on models. I wish both brands great success but the S-Class and the 7 Series are taking a beating in 2024. The Genesis G90 sold a total of 809 cars so far so they are not going anywhere either.
This is all just moving the goalposts to explain away the clear issue here.. The 7 and S Class have always had different models. For instance S Class sales during the 222 generation included the coupe...nobody backs those sales out. You could make an argument that 8 Series GC sales should be added to the 7 Series sales. The fact is that the 7 is doing quite well all things considering and the S Class is not doing as well. Mercedes is cutting S Class production, BMW is not cutting 7 Series production. There is a reason for that MB needs to figure out.
Originally Posted by polo1
And I, and others I know have seen the new 7 Series in person as well - and I can find no one I know that looks at it and says - now that is luxury - either the inside or out.
Is it "different" - definitely.
Is it "luxurious" - not so much.
I completely disagree, and like I showed it is outselling the S Class, so clearly lots of other people disagree too. I know some people with them and they love them and have said they have never had another car that has drawn more positive response. Everybody in my own life I have discussed my car search with have been wowed by the 7 and I haven't gotten any negative reactions. Like I said the hate for this car is largely online. People are buying it, they wouldn't be buying it if they hated it.
The S-Class sells more cars than BMW selling its ICE version of the 7 series.. I would say that while 7 series sales improved, it has at no point surpassed the S-Class. To compare i7 sales with US S-Class Maybach sales is also a stretch. Maybach is extremely strong but the majority are Asian sales. Add a couple hundred in the US as most Maybach's sold in the US are SUV's.
We know that there was a 40+% blip on i7 sales of all 7 series sales sometime in 2023 but one can count on a 15% share for the EV's. We will obviously know more once these sales are broken out.
While you don't to see the EQS as a S-Class EV equivalent, Mercedes does and that is what matters. MB has separate platforms for ICE/EV while BMW has multi-platform models. Either you compare all together or you have to recognize that the i7's must be deducted from the7 Series ICE sales.
This has nothing to do with hating on models. I wish both brands great success but the S-Class and the 7 Series are taking a beating in 2024. The Genesis G90 sold a total of 809 cars so far so they are not going anywhere either.
I have not considered the Panamera in any variation. To me, they are four door sports cars and I have never really cared for them, but thanks for the suggestion.
Agree. Panamera is pretty low slung. Different ergonomics compared with 7er and S-Class.
This is all just moving the goalposts to explain away the clear issue here.. The 7 and S Class have always had different models. For instance S Class sales during the 222 generation included the coupe...nobody backs those sales out. You could make an argument that 8 Series GC sales should be added to the 7 Series sales. The fact is that the 7 is doing quite well all things considering and the S Class is not doing as well. Mercedes is cutting S Class production, BMW is not cutting 7 Series production. There is a reason for that MB needs to figure out.
Again, a very skewed logic here. No goalposts moved. The S-Class coupe is a good question while it was named that way (used to be CL) but just like Maybach's the coupes/cabs amounted to a single digit percentage of all S-Classes sold. It was proper to account that way because Mercedes had them officially part of the S-Class family (Coupe, Cab, SWB sedan, LWB sedan, Maybach and Pullman). All good here.
The 8 Series argument makes zero sense because it is a completely different platform than the 7 Series and also comprises of a whole model family (cab, coupe and 4 door Gran Coupe aka sedan) in M, Alpina and standard trims.
While people are discussing the manufacturing cut of the S-Class, it is interesting to see that Mercedes is not discounting the car as much to move metal like BMW and rather cut production. While they have softened the lease deals/discounts, they are not coming close to 7 Series deals. Worse in Europe. MB has changed the agency model there and all inventory at dealers is owned by MB, not the dealers. The S-Class is barely discounted; avg. S-Class discount is around 8K Euro while the 7 Series is discounted by over 20K Euro and the i7 by 35k Euro. Plus attractive lease rates. Some of this will impact the sales numbers
Lux SUV's have been killing lux large sedan sales...end of story.
This is sadly the case. Not just sedans but also coupes and even convertibles. The types of cars I love. I can appreciate the utility of a SUV but there is nothing to love IMHO.
I owned a couple of BMWs - a new '84 633 that at the time I was convinced was the prettiest sheet metal on wheels. Looks a little aged now.
Then I bought a used 750 or some such...driver's seat was like sitting on a narrow board - shuffled it off pretty quickly.
Just looked at their current models...do not care for the styling one little bit. My 2018 MB S560 is, in my eyes, far more attractive.
SUVs in general? Ugly.
Just my opinion.
@Streamliner Good luck with next steps. FYI - Just wanted to share a quick update working with BMW.... They just bought back our new X7, which we barely got to drive for more than a few days since we purchased earlier this year (persistent 48V issues/random errors that they couldn't ever resolve for months). My BMW poc was great to work with over the last couple of months - we both did our best to maintain the long/good relationship (no blame on either side, things happen but happy with how I was treated by BMW as I never had to go through this ever. No lawyers involved at all either). Interestingly, our X5, purchased around the same time, also M60 and similar specs, has had zero issues. My point is: if you decide to get the i7, you'll be happy with BMW; at least in my case I felt that my previous history with them was appreciated.
But here's the bigger news: I’m back in the Mercedes-Benz family! After a 4.5-hour drive to finalize things with BMW and also check out other options at the same BMW dealer mid of this week (none of which worked for us), I =made plans cross-shopping every Mercedes / BMW / Audi dealers on the way (350 miles away from home). Finally settled on a Benz after 3 hours of negotiations and 2 more to finalize the paperwork. We drove our new car home last night, and I’ll be sharing more about it soon in it's relevant sub-forum (but I just posted more about my new ride here as I already owe the W222 folks a farewell: https://mbworld.org/forums/s-class-w...ml#post9021837
Again, a very skewed logic here. No goalposts moved. The S-Class coupe is a good question while it was named that way (used to be CL) but just like Maybach's the coupes/cabs amounted to a single digit percentage of all S-Classes sold. It was proper to account that way because Mercedes had them officially part of the S-Class family (Coupe, Cab, SWB sedan, LWB sedan, Maybach and Pullman). All good here.
The 8 Series argument makes zero sense because it is a completely different platform than the 7 Series and also comprises of a whole model family (cab, coupe and 4 door Gran Coupe aka sedan) in M, Alpina and standard trims.
While people are discussing the manufacturing cut of the S-Class, it is interesting to see that Mercedes is not discounting the car as much to move metal like BMW and rather cut production. While they have softened the lease deals/discounts, they are not coming close to 7 Series deals. Worse in Europe. MB has changed the agency model there and all inventory at dealers is owned by MB, not the dealers. The S-Class is barely discounted; avg. S-Class discount is around 8K Euro while the 7 Series is discounted by over 20K Euro and the i7 by 35k Euro. Plus attractive lease rates. Some of this will impact the sales numbers
So everything is great then? Sure it is lol
BMW absolutely has a better lease, but they always have had a much better lease, that doesn't explain this.
BMW absolutely has a better lease, but they always have had a much better lease, that doesn't explain this.
I thought this was pretty self explanatory. Mercedes rather cuts production instead of deep discounts. BMW has always been a volume play and BMW financial always take a hit at lease end to move metal. They are not better leases (just better for you of course); they are just taking a loss on the lease which doesn’t show as a lower margin on the quarterly reports.
Nothing new here. The only difference is that MB has changed their strategy (which has been posted on the forum and discussed) to be a luxury brand where margin preservation has priority over output.
One unfortunate side effect is the overly aggressive branding strategy on the cars. How many logos does one need on a car?
The new Maybach SL looks like a Louis Vuitton bag. At least 500+ logos on the car
I thought this was pretty self explanatory. Mercedes rather cuts production instead of deep discounts. BMW has always been a volume play and BMW financial always take a hit at lease end to move metal. They are not better leases (just better for you of course); they are just taking a loss on the lease which doesn’t show as a lower margin on the quarterly reports.
Nothing new here. The only difference is that MB has changed their strategy (which has been posted on the forum and discussed) to be a luxury brand where margin preservation has priority over output.
One unfortunate side effect is the overly aggressive branding strategy on the cars. How many logos does one need on a car?
The new Maybach SL looks like a Louis Vuitton bag. At least 500+ logos on the car
You are looking at this through an MB fan's eyes and making excuses for the reality that this model S Class is under performing. Despite BMW being a "volume player" as you describe, the S has always done more volume, until now. I own the car, and I love the car but the facts are the facts. They missed the mark here on some level. I think the initial rollout being plagued with problems created a stigma in the S Class owners mind that the car is problematic, and then the terrible leases meant returning customers were facing a car that was dramatically more expensive on top of being a question mark for reliability with a high tech interior that they didn't care for, so they didn't upgrade or moved on to other models. I think too the tech forward interface and interior turns off older buyers (we see that here) but the design of the car doesn't attract younger buyers so that is a net negative. The 7 by comparison is much more appealing to younger buyers than older buyers. My buddy who has one is 37 and would never be caught dead in an S Class, but LOVES his matte black murdered out 760. I I'm 42 but I am an anomaly as I have always had big sedans since my 20s.
I had a chat about this with several salespeople and they said that most returning W222 leasers have not been upgrading to the W223, they have been buying their cars out and keeping them and most W223 buyers are first time S Class buyers. I even had salespeople make no effort to even try and put a deal together for me on a S580 and just say "I would buy your S560 out, thats what most people do because the deals on the new ones are terrible".
Its a shame because the car is great, I love mine and I don't miss my W222 at all.
I think too the tech forward interface and interior turns off older buyers (we see that here) but the design of the car doesn't attract younger buyers so that is a net negative. The 7 by comparison is much more appealing to younger buyers than older buyers..
This is very true. I hate the look of the new 7, but for some reason I'd still rather be in the new 7 than a W223 (perhaps only because it's electric, am not even sure) - and I think I belong to the younger population of the 7 and S owners/fans. I probably don't like both of them, but I like them equally too...weird. Definitely the W222 was an easier choice for me over the 7-series, but it's different now. I still wonder how the W223 sale numbers would have looked if the EQS was a true electrified W223. I also wonder how many of the current i7 buyers would have opted for an electrified W223 just for the drivetrain, regardless of everything related to the design of either of them.
This is very true. I hate the look for the new 7, but for some reason I'd still rather be in the new 7 than a W223 (perhaps only because it's electric, am not even sure) - and I think I belong to the younger population of the 7 and S owners/fans. I probably don't like both of them, but I like them equally too. Weird.....but certainly the W222 was an easier choice for me over the 7-series, but it's different now. I still wonder how the W223 sale numbers would have looked if the EQS was a true electrified W223.
For me I like them both, the classic Mercedes look and the 3 pointed star appeal to me still...so that was a draw. The S580 also rides and drives better than the 760, but not the i7. The 7 though is unique and different and is an amazing car...for me the big issue was I didn't find the 760 compelling over the S580 and I just was not ready to go full EV for travel. So...I chose the W223.
The W223 never pulled me in the way the W222 did, it was purely a "I need to replace my S560, it doesnt make sense for me to buy it out of the lease because I'm not going to keep it long even if I did and I'm presented with a workable deal on a well spec'ed W223" so thats the way I went. I think a lot of returning W222 leasers and owners feel that way which is part of the issue. Thats not to say I don't love the car, I do...its a great car but a car like this needs to be a total wow, which the 222 was.
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
Originally Posted by Wolfman
I thought this was pretty self explanatory. Mercedes rather cuts production instead of deep discounts. BMW has always been a volume play and BMW financial always take a hit at lease end to move metal. They are not better leases (just better for you of course); they are just taking a loss on the lease which doesn’t show as a lower margin on the quarterly reports.
Nothing new here. The only difference is that MB has changed their strategy (which has been posted on the forum and discussed) to be a luxury brand where margin preservation has priority over output.
One unfortunate side effect is the overly aggressive branding strategy on the cars. How many logos does one need on a car?
The new Maybach SL looks like a Louis Vuitton bag. At least 500+ logos on the car
The new Maybach SL should be an affront to every Mercedes-Benz enthusiast and to every person of German heritage. Where have the tasteful representations of traditional German engineering and the understated elegance of form following function gone to? Honestly, whoever greenlighted this monstrosity needs to be fired immediately. I’d be ashamed to even ride in something like this. You have to wonder if any MB workers who were assembling this car spoke their minds to management, because someone should have. This car is the “poster child” for how far off track MB’s priorities have gone. Stuttgart: WE HAVE A PROBLEM!
You are looking at this through an MB fan's eyes and making excuses for the reality that this model S Class is under performing. Despite BMW being a "volume player" as you describe, the S has always done more volume, until now. I own the car, and I love the car but the facts are the facts. They missed the mark here on some level. I think the initial rollout being plagued with problems created a stigma in the S Class owners mind that the car is problematic, and then the terrible leases meant returning customers were facing a car that was dramatically more expensive on top of being a question mark for reliability with a high tech interior that they didn't care for, so they didn't upgrade or moved on to other models. I think too the tech forward interface and interior turns off older buyers (we see that here) but the design of the car doesn't attract younger buyers so that is a net negative. The 7 by comparison is much more appealing to younger buyers than older buyers. My buddy who has one is 37 and would never be caught dead in an S Class, but LOVES his matte black murdered out 760. I I'm 42 but I am an anomaly as I have always had big sedans since my 20s.
I had a chat about this with several salespeople and they said that most returning W222 leasers have not been upgrading to the W223, they have been buying their cars out and keeping them and most W223 buyers are first time S Class buyers. I even had salespeople make no effort to even try and put a deal together for me on a S580 and just say "I would buy your S560 out, thats what most people do because the deals on the new ones are terrible".
Its a shame because the car is great, I love mine and I don't miss my W222 at all.
I think you miss my point altogether. I am primarily correcting your incorrect sales stats/conclusions.
Am also a BMW fan and have more BMW ownership experience. No MB fan viewpoint here.
Sales are below expectation for the S-Class and the 7 Series.
No need for additional anecdotal thoughts. The numbers and discounts speak for themselves
I am really happy that you like your S580. It’s a gorgeous car and I wish you many happy miles!
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Slideshow: A one-of-one U.S.-spec Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren Roadster became even rarer after a factory-backed transformation at McLaren's headquarters.
