Injector Flow rating??
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From: Monroe, Louisiana
SL 65 AMG and E63s AMG
Looked high and low and my guess is 480. I have found specs for Bosch injectors for V8/12 MB and the small V8s have 380 and the V12s have 480. Don't hold me to it though, that info seems to be hard to find without a shop manual.
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
Hey Rob,
Thanks for the info.. I will try to confirm with a second source.
I need to confirm this info so I can figure out the correct jetting for the Water/Meth injection system I am installing.
Thanks for the info.. I will try to confirm with a second source.
I need to confirm this info so I can figure out the correct jetting for the Water/Meth injection system I am installing.
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From: Chicago, IL
Real Cars
Victor,
I can't help you, but if you can't find what you are looking for take out an injector and send it to RC Engineering... they can flow test it and tell you it's rating.
-m
I can't help you, but if you can't find what you are looking for take out an injector and send it to RC Engineering... they can flow test it and tell you it's rating.
-m
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
Reviving this topic because I still cant get a concrete answer and I dont feel like taking an injector out to get it professionally flow tested..
No one has access to this info??? Surely one of the tuners out there knows this???
Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?
No one has access to this info??? Surely one of the tuners out there knows this???
Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
Originally Posted by E55AMG99
40 lbs per hour or good for about 650HP
Just want to be sure because I have to figure out the proper nozzle size to support a 15% water to fuel mixture for the methanol injection system. If I am off it will run too lean.
Thanks!
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From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
The info came from Vadim at Evosport. Give them a call to verify.
Are you going with Snow Performance? They have some very extensive systems and parts available. I thnk Summit Racing has them. How much power do you think it will add by itself? 30, 40, 50HP? Why not use a greater ratio of meth, like 50%? Are you going to add more boost? How? Sorry for all the questions but I'm very excited to see how well this works! I can't understand why very few people are using it today. I had it on every turbo engine I built back in the 80's.
Good luck with the project!
Greg
Are you going with Snow Performance? They have some very extensive systems and parts available. I thnk Summit Racing has them. How much power do you think it will add by itself? 30, 40, 50HP? Why not use a greater ratio of meth, like 50%? Are you going to add more boost? How? Sorry for all the questions but I'm very excited to see how well this works! I can't understand why very few people are using it today. I had it on every turbo engine I built back in the 80's.
Good luck with the project!
Greg
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From: Vancouver, British Columbia
04 E55
Originally Posted by Vadim @ evosport
We do know how much injectors flow. Stock, they are good for 650HP.
from this thread
Thread Starter
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
Originally Posted by E55AMG99
The info came from Vadim at Evosport. Give them a call to verify.
Are you going with Snow Performance? They have some very extensive systems and parts available. I thnk Summit Racing has them. How much power do you think it will add by itself? 30, 40, 50HP? Why not use a greater ratio of meth, like 50%? Are you going to add more boost? How? Sorry for all the questions but I'm very excited to see how well this works! I can't understand why very few people are using it today. I had it on every turbo engine I built back in the 80's.
Good luck with the project!
Greg
Are you going with Snow Performance? They have some very extensive systems and parts available. I thnk Summit Racing has them. How much power do you think it will add by itself? 30, 40, 50HP? Why not use a greater ratio of meth, like 50%? Are you going to add more boost? How? Sorry for all the questions but I'm very excited to see how well this works! I can't understand why very few people are using it today. I had it on every turbo engine I built back in the 80's.
Good luck with the project!
Greg
I will post pictures soon of all the components.. to get an idea check this thread: https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ater+injection
Its been in the works for a LONG time but custom stuff takes time and we are almost at the end of our timeline and ready to complete the install.
I am going to be running a 51% meth to 49% water ratio to start. In order to get proper combustion I need a MAXIMUM of 15% WATER/METH combination to FUEL ratio. In other words, my meth/water jets flow 300cc/min.. I need to make sure that my 8 injectors will flow at least 250cc/min each. (8*250=2000... 2000 * 15% = 300).
I will be doing very thorough testing on the dyno.. I will be testing different Meth/Water ratios which will help either richen or lean the mixture.. I will also be testing pre-supercharger and post-supercharger. It will take some time to get the perfect setup but this will all be done on a dyno so I will have data to backup my claims.
My goal has been to hit the 700hp mark. I know it can be done and I wont stop until I get there (unless I sell my car)...
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I will be testing different Meth/Water ratios which will help either richen or lean the mixture.. I will also be testing pre-supercharger and post-supercharger. It will take some time to get the perfect setup but this will all be done on a dyno so I will have data to backup my claims.
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From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
That's a good question. Methanol produces more hydrogen in the exhaust which will fool the O2 sensor. Then again, most ECUs go to open loop mode under full throttle which takes the sensor out of play.
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From: So. Cal.
2006 CLS55-030, 2002 BMW 540 Wagon, 1995 VW Jetta GLX
All Menthenol !!
I built a Turbo Porsche back in the 80's and ran it on Propane and 100% Methanol Admixture and I had a variable Menthanol pump set up that I could change the amount of Methanol that was injected into the motor. The motor ran strong with out the Menthanol Admixture, but with the Menthanol Admixture the Motor ran noticeably stronger. The only word I could come up with to describe the Motor on 100% Methanol admixture was "Brilliant". It revved faster, pulled harder and seemed to want to do all this with ease. When on 100% Menthanol admixture you would litterally have the feeling of being thrown down the road when at WOT. You would make driving decisions based on this performance and would be constantly amazed at what this performance envelope would allow you to do.
vrus - You get this combination dialed in and you to will be amazed! -
- Bob
vrus - You get this combination dialed in and you to will be amazed! -
- Bob
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
hmm.. so, based on formula, cc/min = lbs/hr x 10.5 then:
40lbs/hr x 10.5 = 420cc/min..
To find the max HP you can achieve with injector size on Gasoline:
HP = ([INJECTOR SIZE (LB/HR) X DUTY CYCLE] / BSFC) X (# OF INJECTORS)
BSFC for gasoline turbo/supercharged cars is 0.55 - 0.60.
HP = 40 x 1 (100%) / 0.55 x 8
HP = 581
Based on my calculation 40lbs/hr injectors are only good for 581hp on a supercharged/turbocharged car.
Something isn't right here...
40lbs/hr x 10.5 = 420cc/min..
To find the max HP you can achieve with injector size on Gasoline:
HP = ([INJECTOR SIZE (LB/HR) X DUTY CYCLE] / BSFC) X (# OF INJECTORS)
BSFC for gasoline turbo/supercharged cars is 0.55 - 0.60.
HP = 40 x 1 (100%) / 0.55 x 8
HP = 581
Based on my calculation 40lbs/hr injectors are only good for 581hp on a supercharged/turbocharged car.
Something isn't right here...
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
Originally Posted by BlownV8
How are you going to measure the air/fuel ratio when you are using methanol injection? I have always been told, when dynoing my car, that the dyno's air/fuel gauge will not properly read if you use methanol/water injection.
Originally Posted by Evolution Marine
vrus - You get this combination dialed in and you to will be amazed! - - Bob
Also, if you have a leak in the injection system and pure methanol should fall onto an open header or something else in the engine compartment which is hot, it will cause a fire which is undetectable because Methanol burns clean and you cant see the flame.. Too dangerous in my opinion regardless of how much extra power you will get.
Last edited by vrus; Aug 29, 2005 at 01:21 AM.
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From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
Originally Posted by vrus
hmm.. so, based on formula, cc/min = lbs/hr x 10.5 then:
40lbs/hr x 10.5 = 420cc/min..
To find the max HP you can achieve with injector size on Gasoline:
HP = ([INJECTOR SIZE (LB/HR) X DUTY CYCLE] / BSFC) X (# OF INJECTORS)
BSFC for gasoline turbo/supercharged cars is 0.55 - 0.60.
HP = 40 x 1 (100%) / 0.55 x 8
HP = 581
Based on my calculation 40lbs/hr injectors are only good for 581hp on a supercharged/turbocharged car.
Something isn't right here...
40lbs/hr x 10.5 = 420cc/min..
To find the max HP you can achieve with injector size on Gasoline:
HP = ([INJECTOR SIZE (LB/HR) X DUTY CYCLE] / BSFC) X (# OF INJECTORS)
BSFC for gasoline turbo/supercharged cars is 0.55 - 0.60.
HP = 40 x 1 (100%) / 0.55 x 8
HP = 581
Based on my calculation 40lbs/hr injectors are only good for 581hp on a supercharged/turbocharged car.
Something isn't right here...
Thread Starter
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
Originally Posted by E55AMG99
If you are right about that fuel consumption figure, look out pistons! I think Vadim is using .5 for BSFC. I remember that .55 was great when we started using EFI and turbos back in the early 80s. About .52 for NA EFI motors of the same era. Has technology improved so that engines are that much more precise and efficient? Maybe. I haven't been on the dyno in a few years.
You might be right about the fuel consumption number.. I am not positive.. I just know the formula and have always used .55 - .6 as the BSFC #.
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From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
Originally Posted by vrus
Even then, we are talking 640hp at 100% duty cycle which is never used because injectors become alot less efficient when they are running over 85% duty cycle from what I have come to know.
You might be right about the fuel consumption number.. I am not positive.. I just know the formula and have always used .55 - .6 as the BSFC #.
You might be right about the fuel consumption number.. I am not positive.. I just know the formula and have always used .55 - .6 as the BSFC #.
BTW, the wideband O2 sensor will allow you to read a broader scale, right? Will the ECU be able to understand this condition and compensate? I recall some early GM units that would interpret extreme readings as out of bounds and go into open loop.
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From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
Oh, yeah...I don't think the MB ECU is compatible with the wideband. I think they still use the old planar "switch" technolgy. Aren't the widebands constant? Will they work as a direct replacement? So many questions to be tested and answered.
Man, you sure are adventuresome. This sounds like a TON of work but 10X more fun! I am more than a little envious!
Man, you sure are adventuresome. This sounds like a TON of work but 10X more fun! I am more than a little envious!
Thread Starter
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
Originally Posted by E55AMG99
Oh, yeah...I don't think the MB ECU is compatible with the wideband. I think they still use the old planar "switch" technolgy. Aren't the widebands constant? Will they work as a direct replacement? So many questions to be tested and answered.
Man, you sure are adventuresome. This sounds like a TON of work but 10X more fun! I am more than a little envious!
Man, you sure are adventuresome. This sounds like a TON of work but 10X more fun! I am more than a little envious!
I do like to tinker and wrench when I can... It is going to be alot of work, but, that's what makes this hobby so much fun.. figuring out what works and what doesn't.
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From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
I see. Well, pure methanol has an S/R of about 6.5:1 and gas is 14.7:1 but maximum power is achieved a point or so lower for each. The WBO2 sensor needs to read at least down to 9:1 (assuming max power of meth is 4:1 and gas 12:1 with a 15/85% mix) which gives about a 1.5 AFR headroom....Right, or am I still sleeping?
Too much math! Find a WBO2 data logger that you can program with the above information.
Too much math! Find a WBO2 data logger that you can program with the above information.
