Owners Of New M5 Seem Dissappointed
11-15-2005, 11:08 PM
#52
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2005 Brilliant Silver E55
Originally Posted by krispykrme
I really like my sienna. I will take it over Odyssey any time. (i seriously considered trading the sienna for odyssey when it 1st came out, because the 04 sienna had old toyota navi, and since has been dramtically improved since 05 model. hence my upgrade).
Sienna does not handle well and steering is numb. Odyssey has better steering response but handling is about as poor due to its excessive weight (4500lb vs 4000 lb). Honda gave odyssey the best steering reponse save the NSX and S2000. Odyssey has better brake than sienna, and this is a big advantage.
Sienna's interior is bigger and better designed than odyssey (especially the 3rd row, where sienna is about 3" wider- I can fit 3 across in the 3rd row in the sienna much better than odyssey). All the buttons are placed better than Odyssey. For example, the power door on the sienna can be opreated by both driver and passenger while the Odyssye can only be opreated by the driver since the buttons are on the left hand side. Also there are extra buttons on the b-pillar of sienna in which you can operate the power door (missing in odyssey).
As far as navi goes, since 2005, sienna's navi is more powerful and quiet easy to use. Both sienna navi and odyssey navi will allow input while moving (no mod on the sienna, and can be done with punching in of selection of buttons). Sienna's navi will also allows DVD to be playing on the screen while moving (there is a software bypass- not recommend while driving). Sienna now comes with bluetooth build in, not on the odyssey.
If you are going to spend $40k for a minivan, go with sienna limited. It comes with HID with manual height adjustment (again missing on the odyssey). Go take a test drive into a rural road area where there is no ambient light. Play around with sienna's HID height adjustment control. It allows you to see about 3x further than odyssey's head light. This is one of my biggest gripe about odyssey.
As far as price point goes, I don't think that is really the case either. You are probably looking at Sienna limited AWD, even though the sticker is north of $40k, you can get it far less than that, probably at below invoice for 05, and invoice for 06 (with bigger DVD screen, bluetooth). In fact you probably will get a loaded sienna limited AWD for less than a loaded odyssey touring. You get way more feature in sienna than odyssey at higher trim model with better pricing to boot.
You need to drive the two. Sienna feels numb while odyssey feels more agile (feel not actual performance). But sienna rides much better than Odyssey and is quieter too. I am very clear as to what i was looking in a van. I never expect it to be a good handling car. So my priority were on safety, comfort, and reliability. I was coming off a disaster TL with major transmission and brake issues. So i have no confidence with honda product right now.
If you can't tolerate numb steering (worse than the E), than sienna is not a good choice for you. But i am not so sure about odyssey's steering either. Odyssey steering response is BMW like (almost like a clone). So if you don't like BMW steering you might have issue with odyssey's steering too.
Personally sienna is a much better conceived minivan for the pax you are carrying, and offers more safety feature and not really fun to drive. But for people you are carrying, sienna is great for long trips. Not to mention that toyota rarely breaks down.
Anyway, go take test drive between the two. See if lack of HID on odyssey bothers you. (it bothered me a great deal as I often have to drive on 152 east on my way to LA. 152 east is twisty, windy, full with hills, lots of slow moving semi, and no streetlight. HID is a great safety feature for me).
Sienna does not handle well and steering is numb. Odyssey has better steering response but handling is about as poor due to its excessive weight (4500lb vs 4000 lb). Honda gave odyssey the best steering reponse save the NSX and S2000. Odyssey has better brake than sienna, and this is a big advantage.
Sienna's interior is bigger and better designed than odyssey (especially the 3rd row, where sienna is about 3" wider- I can fit 3 across in the 3rd row in the sienna much better than odyssey). All the buttons are placed better than Odyssey. For example, the power door on the sienna can be opreated by both driver and passenger while the Odyssye can only be opreated by the driver since the buttons are on the left hand side. Also there are extra buttons on the b-pillar of sienna in which you can operate the power door (missing in odyssey).
As far as navi goes, since 2005, sienna's navi is more powerful and quiet easy to use. Both sienna navi and odyssey navi will allow input while moving (no mod on the sienna, and can be done with punching in of selection of buttons). Sienna's navi will also allows DVD to be playing on the screen while moving (there is a software bypass- not recommend while driving). Sienna now comes with bluetooth build in, not on the odyssey.
If you are going to spend $40k for a minivan, go with sienna limited. It comes with HID with manual height adjustment (again missing on the odyssey). Go take a test drive into a rural road area where there is no ambient light. Play around with sienna's HID height adjustment control. It allows you to see about 3x further than odyssey's head light. This is one of my biggest gripe about odyssey.
As far as price point goes, I don't think that is really the case either. You are probably looking at Sienna limited AWD, even though the sticker is north of $40k, you can get it far less than that, probably at below invoice for 05, and invoice for 06 (with bigger DVD screen, bluetooth). In fact you probably will get a loaded sienna limited AWD for less than a loaded odyssey touring. You get way more feature in sienna than odyssey at higher trim model with better pricing to boot.
You need to drive the two. Sienna feels numb while odyssey feels more agile (feel not actual performance). But sienna rides much better than Odyssey and is quieter too. I am very clear as to what i was looking in a van. I never expect it to be a good handling car. So my priority were on safety, comfort, and reliability. I was coming off a disaster TL with major transmission and brake issues. So i have no confidence with honda product right now.
If you can't tolerate numb steering (worse than the E), than sienna is not a good choice for you. But i am not so sure about odyssey's steering either. Odyssey steering response is BMW like (almost like a clone). So if you don't like BMW steering you might have issue with odyssey's steering too.
Personally sienna is a much better conceived minivan for the pax you are carrying, and offers more safety feature and not really fun to drive. But for people you are carrying, sienna is great for long trips. Not to mention that toyota rarely breaks down.
Anyway, go take test drive between the two. See if lack of HID on odyssey bothers you. (it bothered me a great deal as I often have to drive on 152 east on my way to LA. 152 east is twisty, windy, full with hills, lots of slow moving semi, and no streetlight. HID is a great safety feature for me).
11-15-2005, 11:45 PM
#56
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Mercedes
Originally Posted by ricky.agrawal
And the lights still sucked?
We have an .. 01 and a 02 I think.
I use the highbeams whenever I can. I think it's just because I'm spoiled by the BMW lights.
We have an .. 01 and a 02 I think.
I use the highbeams whenever I can. I think it's just because I'm spoiled by the BMW lights.
11-16-2005, 12:30 AM
#59
Super Member
Originally Posted by E55_POWER
Thanks, great write up. No HID, I would not consider the vehicle. Granted our LX470 didn't have it, it did have bright headlights. The Sienna would be our Escallade replacement, something with AWD. The RR Sport S/C'ed was small but a possibility for us. RR HSE is out of the question as they break a lot...yes the current ones. My bro. has one and it lived in the shop the first 4 months. Probably don't want another LX470, ML is out of the question, so we came up with the Sienna possibility. Funny thing is, Toyota dealers don't seem to take anyone serious.
RR is that bad. hmm. My wife wants a SUV as her CLK replacement instead of the 330i ED we had chosen earlier. One of the SUV we were consider was the RR sport. I know HSE is different from RR sport. But still that does not give me confidence.
back to square one for me.
11-16-2005, 06:16 AM
#60
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Originally Posted by MRichmond
If you read the impressions of the new M5 owners, "disappointed" is one of the last words that come to mind. You also will find that, while many M5 owners (myself included) find 1/4-mile times interesting, they are one of the less relevant aspects of our purchase decisions or level of enjoyment. In any case, we have yet to see a significant sample of 1/4-mile times run in properly broken in M5s. So, even if the 1/4-mile time is your benchmark, you should reserve judgment. I do not expect the M5's 1/4-mile time to be significantly better than the E55's. I also do not care much if it is worse, since that is not what the M5's purpose is and I have no intention of using it at the drag strip. I care much more about how the M5 feels, how quick it is in situations that I encounter daily, and how well it serves its true purpose of being a supremely comfortable sedan that transforms into a sports car with first-rate handling. And in those departments, the M5 does not disappoint.
"Less relevant aspects"??????????
YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Straight line performance, 1/4 mile times, these are not the purpose of an M5 and are certainly one of the less relevant aspects or features of an M5! How dare we E55 owners even DISCUSS something so taudry and plebian to an M5 guy. BMW never ever ever even thought about straight line performance, and nor do you care apparently!
I guess that's why they made that Launch Control thingy, right? So you could take off into corners and handle real well? Woosh, I'm glad someone made the M5's purpose clear to me, because for a minute there I was beginning to think BMW and M5 owners looked at straight line performance very seriously. I'm sorry I misinterpreted both the motivation and purpose of Launch Control. I did think it was silly to have a button JUST FOR GOING STRAIGHT REALLY FAST. That would be like, uh, well, drag racing.
Loren
11-16-2005, 12:03 PM
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2000 W210 E55->2003 R230 SL500->2004 W211 E55->2007 997TT+2007 E63->2010 GLK350->2012 E550 4matic
Originally Posted by E55_POWER
I really like the Odyssey but we were leaning towards the Sienna for its AWD. We looked at the R Class...man who are they kidding with that $70K Pacifica with MB logos (no offense to R Class owners, I'm sure it's a fine vehicle). But the R Class, man I don't know, it felt to me like buying a Casio Neiman Marcus Edition a NM...change the skin and sell it a NM for higher price because they can. I just didn't see any $70K value in the R Class. Sales guy was going on and on about what an awesome minivan it was, etc. I didn't even listen and just walked away.
We have an 05 Odyssey as the Canadian Sienna didn't even have navigation back then. I dislike Honda and BMW navigation with the silly lawyer's disclaimer default screen. The Toyota and Lexus is even worse disallowing one to play with it unless the car is stopped.
Just get a Japanese mini-van, they're not bad.
11-16-2005, 12:15 PM
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CLS55 AMG
Honestly, guys, this isn't difficult: what is relevant is the stuff the BMW does better, along with the subjective criterion that the BMW owners deem relevant. Everyting else is irrelevant, for all people, everywhere. Thus spaketh Gustav, the High Priest of BMW, and thou shalt not question His will.
So, for example, 1/4 mile times are irrelevant, because the Mercedes has been tested faster down there. Only races in that crucial band from 120-160 mph or so, where the two extra gears of the M5 give it a critical advantage, are relevant. The M5 handles better, so this is relevant. But it gets lower fuel economy, so this is irrelevant. The BMW makes all of its power up high and has its torque peak at 10,000 rpm, so the low-end torque of the E55 is irrelevant. The Benz transmission's smooth, flawless shifts are easier to live with than the jerky performance of the SMG, so this, too, is irrelevant.
See how simple it is?
Furthermore, as any idiot knows when purchasing a 4,000 pound, $90,000 luxury automobile, only performance numbers--excepting acceleration, which only counts from 120-160 mph--and track times are relevant, unless, of course, one points out that if performance numbers are the highest priority, one could buy a $65,000 Corvette Z06, or a used Turbo Porsche, either of which beat the BMW in all of these performance numbers and turn faster track times, at which point the performance numbers become irrelevant. Oh, and if you point this out, your opinion is not relevant.
Subjective opinions are irrelevant, unless those subjective opinions are in favor of the BMW. If you like the appearence, ameneties, creature comforts, or any features of Mercedes better, your opinion is not relevant. If you think the new M5 looks like a cross between the Batmobile and a Passat, your opinion is not relevant. If you dislike IDrive, your opinion is not relevant. If, on the other hand, you think the BMW M5 is the most beautiful oblect in the universe and would rather read a Sport Auto road test on the M5 than the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, then you are not only relevant, but are a prime candidate to join the Order of Gustav.
Lastly, videos which show the M5 losing are irrelevant. Only videos of BMW-provided test cars pulling cars tested the same or faster in mags, including, interestingly enough, a video of a BMW-provided M6 stomping a factory M5 which Gustav posted both on his website and here, are relevant.
Now, some of you might think it odd that a BMW-provided test car, an M6, which has the same engine, gearing, rated horsepower, larger tires which slow it down at higher speeds due to increased friction and aerodynamic drag, would pull a factory-produced M5 by seven or eight carlengths at speed, but I'm here to tell you: your opinion is not relevant. There is nothing at all unusual about this, and the fact that the test car ran away from the assembly line car proves nothing. Nada. Zip. Because I'm here to tell you, you whining, paranoid, BMW-hating unpatriotic conspiracy theorists, that there is nothing, yes, NOTHING, suspicious of this run AT ALL.
And if you think otherwise, you are irrelevant. :-) Further, if you attempt to engage in any discussions of these matters in Gustav the High Priest's temple, you shall be slandered and banished from the temple. No insubordination, dissent, or blaspheme will be tolerated!!!
So, for example, 1/4 mile times are irrelevant, because the Mercedes has been tested faster down there. Only races in that crucial band from 120-160 mph or so, where the two extra gears of the M5 give it a critical advantage, are relevant. The M5 handles better, so this is relevant. But it gets lower fuel economy, so this is irrelevant. The BMW makes all of its power up high and has its torque peak at 10,000 rpm, so the low-end torque of the E55 is irrelevant. The Benz transmission's smooth, flawless shifts are easier to live with than the jerky performance of the SMG, so this, too, is irrelevant.
See how simple it is?
Furthermore, as any idiot knows when purchasing a 4,000 pound, $90,000 luxury automobile, only performance numbers--excepting acceleration, which only counts from 120-160 mph--and track times are relevant, unless, of course, one points out that if performance numbers are the highest priority, one could buy a $65,000 Corvette Z06, or a used Turbo Porsche, either of which beat the BMW in all of these performance numbers and turn faster track times, at which point the performance numbers become irrelevant. Oh, and if you point this out, your opinion is not relevant.
Subjective opinions are irrelevant, unless those subjective opinions are in favor of the BMW. If you like the appearence, ameneties, creature comforts, or any features of Mercedes better, your opinion is not relevant. If you think the new M5 looks like a cross between the Batmobile and a Passat, your opinion is not relevant. If you dislike IDrive, your opinion is not relevant. If, on the other hand, you think the BMW M5 is the most beautiful oblect in the universe and would rather read a Sport Auto road test on the M5 than the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, then you are not only relevant, but are a prime candidate to join the Order of Gustav.
Lastly, videos which show the M5 losing are irrelevant. Only videos of BMW-provided test cars pulling cars tested the same or faster in mags, including, interestingly enough, a video of a BMW-provided M6 stomping a factory M5 which Gustav posted both on his website and here, are relevant.
Now, some of you might think it odd that a BMW-provided test car, an M6, which has the same engine, gearing, rated horsepower, larger tires which slow it down at higher speeds due to increased friction and aerodynamic drag, would pull a factory-produced M5 by seven or eight carlengths at speed, but I'm here to tell you: your opinion is not relevant. There is nothing at all unusual about this, and the fact that the test car ran away from the assembly line car proves nothing. Nada. Zip. Because I'm here to tell you, you whining, paranoid, BMW-hating unpatriotic conspiracy theorists, that there is nothing, yes, NOTHING, suspicious of this run AT ALL.
And if you think otherwise, you are irrelevant. :-) Further, if you attempt to engage in any discussions of these matters in Gustav the High Priest's temple, you shall be slandered and banished from the temple. No insubordination, dissent, or blaspheme will be tolerated!!!
Last edited by Improviz; 11-16-2005 at 12:28 PM.
11-16-2005, 12:46 PM
#64
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so let me get this right you guys think that all the m5s were tweaked test cars.Why dont you guys wait a few more weeks and let some more people run there cars and see how they run.
impro the m6 has a different exh system and was rumored to have 550 hp from the get go
are you saying that supersprints car was rigged also when they dyno'd it with 549 hp with there exh?
and the sweedish m5 that put down 471whp stock?
maybe just maybe these first videos are not up to par because that car is not broken in yet
dont you have any suspician to why a car with the same size engine and hp with the same rev limit completely walked the m5 buy 5cls in that video
the m5 has a better tranny and dosnt have the awd drive loss to deal with either
impro the m6 has a different exh system and was rumored to have 550 hp from the get go
are you saying that supersprints car was rigged also when they dyno'd it with 549 hp with there exh?
and the sweedish m5 that put down 471whp stock?
maybe just maybe these first videos are not up to par because that car is not broken in yet
dont you have any suspician to why a car with the same size engine and hp with the same rev limit completely walked the m5 buy 5cls in that video
the m5 has a better tranny and dosnt have the awd drive loss to deal with either
11-16-2005, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Improviz
Honestly, guys, this isn't difficult: what is relevant is the stuff the BMW does better, along with the subjective criterion that the BMW owners deem relevant. Everyting else is irrelevant, for all people, everywhere. Thus spaketh Gustav, the High Priest of BMW, and thou shalt not question His will.
So, for example, 1/4 mile times are irrelevant, because the Mercedes has been tested faster down there. Only races in that crucial band from 120-160 mph or so, where the two extra gears of the M5 give it a critical advantage, are relevant. The M5 handles better, so this is relevant. But it gets lower fuel economy, so this is irrelevant. The BMW makes all of its power up high and has its torque peak at 10,000 rpm, so the low-end torque of the E55 is irrelevant. The Benz transmission's smooth, flawless shifts are easier to live with than the jerky performance of the SMG, so this, too, is irrelevant.
See how simple it is?
Furthermore, as any idiot knows when purchasing a 4,000 pound, $90,000 luxury automobile, only performance numbers--excepting acceleration, which only counts from 120-160 mph--and track times are relevant, unless, of course, one points out that if performance numbers are the highest priority, one could buy a $65,000 Corvette Z06, or a used Turbo Porsche, either of which beat the BMW in all of these performance numbers and turn faster track times, at which point the performance numbers become irrelevant. Oh, and if you point this out, your opinion is not relevant.
Subjective opinions are irrelevant, unless those subjective opinions are in favor of the BMW. If you like the appearence, ameneties, creature comforts, or any features of Mercedes better, your opinion is not relevant. If you think the new M5 looks like a cross between the Batmobile and a Passat, your opinion is not relevant. If you dislike IDrive, your opinion is not relevant. If, on the other hand, you think the BMW M5 is the most beautiful oblect in the universe and would rather read a Sport Auto road test on the M5 than the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, then you are not only relevant, but are a prime candidate to join the Order of Gustav.
Lastly, videos which show the M5 losing are irrelevant. Only videos of BMW-provided test cars pulling cars tested the same or faster in mags, including, interestingly enough, a video of a BMW-provided M6 stomping a factory M5 which Gustav posted both on his website and here, are relevant.
Now, some of you might think it odd that a BMW-provided test car, an M6, which has the same engine, gearing, rated horsepower, larger tires which slow it down at higher speeds due to increased friction and aerodynamic drag, would pull a factory-produced M5 by seven or eight carlengths at speed, but I'm here to tell you: your opinion is not relevant. There is nothing at all unusual about this, and the fact that the test car ran away from the assembly line car proves nothing. Nada. Zip. Because I'm here to tell you, you whining, paranoid, BMW-hating unpatriotic conspiracy theorists, that there is nothing, yes, NOTHING, suspicious of this run AT ALL.
And if you think otherwise, you are irrelevant. :-) Further, if you attempt to engage in any discussions of these matters in Gustav the High Priest's temple, you shall be slandered and banished from the temple. No insubordination, dissent, or blaspheme will be tolerated!!!
So, for example, 1/4 mile times are irrelevant, because the Mercedes has been tested faster down there. Only races in that crucial band from 120-160 mph or so, where the two extra gears of the M5 give it a critical advantage, are relevant. The M5 handles better, so this is relevant. But it gets lower fuel economy, so this is irrelevant. The BMW makes all of its power up high and has its torque peak at 10,000 rpm, so the low-end torque of the E55 is irrelevant. The Benz transmission's smooth, flawless shifts are easier to live with than the jerky performance of the SMG, so this, too, is irrelevant.
See how simple it is?
Furthermore, as any idiot knows when purchasing a 4,000 pound, $90,000 luxury automobile, only performance numbers--excepting acceleration, which only counts from 120-160 mph--and track times are relevant, unless, of course, one points out that if performance numbers are the highest priority, one could buy a $65,000 Corvette Z06, or a used Turbo Porsche, either of which beat the BMW in all of these performance numbers and turn faster track times, at which point the performance numbers become irrelevant. Oh, and if you point this out, your opinion is not relevant.
Subjective opinions are irrelevant, unless those subjective opinions are in favor of the BMW. If you like the appearence, ameneties, creature comforts, or any features of Mercedes better, your opinion is not relevant. If you think the new M5 looks like a cross between the Batmobile and a Passat, your opinion is not relevant. If you dislike IDrive, your opinion is not relevant. If, on the other hand, you think the BMW M5 is the most beautiful oblect in the universe and would rather read a Sport Auto road test on the M5 than the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, then you are not only relevant, but are a prime candidate to join the Order of Gustav.
Lastly, videos which show the M5 losing are irrelevant. Only videos of BMW-provided test cars pulling cars tested the same or faster in mags, including, interestingly enough, a video of a BMW-provided M6 stomping a factory M5 which Gustav posted both on his website and here, are relevant.
Now, some of you might think it odd that a BMW-provided test car, an M6, which has the same engine, gearing, rated horsepower, larger tires which slow it down at higher speeds due to increased friction and aerodynamic drag, would pull a factory-produced M5 by seven or eight carlengths at speed, but I'm here to tell you: your opinion is not relevant. There is nothing at all unusual about this, and the fact that the test car ran away from the assembly line car proves nothing. Nada. Zip. Because I'm here to tell you, you whining, paranoid, BMW-hating unpatriotic conspiracy theorists, that there is nothing, yes, NOTHING, suspicious of this run AT ALL.
And if you think otherwise, you are irrelevant. :-) Further, if you attempt to engage in any discussions of these matters in Gustav the High Priest's temple, you shall be slandered and banished from the temple. No insubordination, dissent, or blaspheme will be tolerated!!!
*YAWN*
ZZzzzzZzzzzzzzz
11-16-2005, 01:56 PM
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02 ML320, 06 E350
Everyone go download the new Topgear. they have the M5 vs new porsche vs aston martin. They close down a stretch of windy road and see which car goes fastest. you will be surprised who wins. i wont give away the ending unless a few of you guys cant download the episode. it can be found on torrent-spy and various other torrent sites.
11-16-2005, 02:36 PM
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CLS55 AMG
Oh, the poor little troll's feelings are hurt!
Originally Posted by skratch77
so let me get this right you guys think that all the m5s were tweaked test cars.Why dont you guys wait a few more weeks and let some more people run there cars and see how they run.
impro the m6 has a different exh system and was rumored to have 550 hp from the get go
impro the m6 has a different exh system and was rumored to have 550 hp from the get go
And can you provide a reference stating the exhaust system is different? Haven't heard this one.BMW rates the cars at the same horsepower. Why would they give the coupe 50 more horsepower and not rate it accordingly? Ridiculous.
Originally Posted by skratch77
are you saying that supersprints car was rigged also when they dyno'd it with 549 hp with there exh?
and the sweedish m5 that put down 471whp stock?
and the sweedish m5 that put down 471whp stock?
And I generally don't put too much stock in any vendor's dyno results; I prefer to see them from independent third parties who don't have a vested interest in high dyno numbers.
Originally Posted by skratch77
maybe just maybe these first videos are not up to par because that car is not broken in yet
Originally Posted by skratch77
dont you have any suspician to why a car with the same size engine and hp with the same rev limit completely walked the m5 buy 5cls in that video
Don't you have any suspicion as to why Gustav's BMW press cars are so much faster than production versions? Don't you wonder why both krispy, who in case you hadn't noticed hasn't been exactly brimming with praise for Mercedes over the past year, and Derek, both reported the same thing?
Originally Posted by skratch77
the m5 has a better tranny and dosnt have the awd drive loss to deal with either
11-16-2005, 02:40 PM
#69
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CLS55 AMG
Originally Posted by MikeHK
*YAWN*
ZZzzzzZzzzzzzzz
ZZzzzzZzzzzzzzz
But you are not here for honest discussion; you, as he, are here to attack Mercedes and defend attackers of Mercedes. Period. You have no objectivity, and no credibility. In every instance where a BMW owner trolls and we attack him, you defend him and attack us. You are a tool and a troll, a piece of ****e, nothing more.
I invite people to look at your posting history:
time and time and time again you spring to the defense of BMW (and BMW trolls),
and in fact just in observing the first series of posts in your history, what do we see:
- three posts attacking me for going after BMW trolls;
- a post in favor of the BMW X5 in which you took a cheap shot at AMG;
- a post where you brag about the M5's track capabilities;
- posts from a thread into which you (and lardass)interjected yourself and took cheap shots at AMG owners for actually liking their cars;
- posts from a different thread into which you interjected yourself, and, again, took cheap shots at AMG owners for actually liking their cars and daring to compare them to your beloved M5;
- a post where you advise people who want a good-handling car with space and acceleration to buy an M5;
- a post where you attack the appearance of Mercedes;
- another post where you attack the appearance of Mercedes;
- a post where you compare the appearance of the CLS to an Acura;
- a post in which you wax poetic about the beauty of the Z4;
- a post in which you claim an E55 is "ugly";
- several more posts, like this one, where you defend the M5 and put down the AMGs;
- a post where you tell the owner of a C55 that he should have purchased an M3;
- a post where you wrote about how great it was that an M5 pulled an Audi RS6;
- a post where you wrote that "engine wise, chassis wise, and handling wise, BMW is on top";
- a post where you put down the C Class' handling and talk up the BMW 3 Series;
- a post where you claim that BMW's 3 Series sales figures are better than those of the C Class;
...and so on, and so on, and so on, for well over 100 posts....basically all that you have done since you arrived here is interject yourself into any Mercedes-vs-BMW thread you can find and post derogatory material about Mercedes, favorable material about BMW, and attack anyone who goes after any BMW troll or (gasp) exhibits more enthusiasm for Mercedes AMG cars than BMW M cars. You have started no threads, only entered into those involving BMW, on the side of BMW, against Mercedes. You have contributed absolutely nothing to this forum other than snide remarks and plugs for BMW.
So much for your objectivity or credibility. Just another troll, nothing more.
Last edited by Improviz; 11-16-2005 at 02:47 PM.
11-16-2005, 03:00 PM
#70
MBWorld Fanatic!
impro I have read online months ago about the m6 getting a better exh system I will look for it.
I am with you on some things you say about gust but the gall video is not right in my eyes
its well known that a 2wd car has less drive line loss than a 4wd like the gallrado
it has an audi quattro system and should be somewhere in the 18-22% drive loss
the 03 gall weighs 3600 lbs not that much less than an m5 with its closer gearing and better power to the ground from its 2 wheel drive system should not pull 5cls on the m5
the supersprint system did not pick up 50hp there car put down 529hp or 527hp stock(I cant remember but it was over fac specs)so it was only like 18hp from there car.I will look for there dynos but these are from memory and are out there somewhere.
did you not watch the m5 on the turkish autobahn that raced the 550 and 575 ferrari.It was neck to neck with those cars and was NOT a test car.
the sweedish stock m5 that put down 471whp was not selling anything it was a mag that just wanted to dyno the car.
it looks like in the gall vid that the gall was in 1st gear and the m in second not a very good way to get the most out of that car and in the second race it was at 5k
i will post a vid that has nothing to do with gust or any test car and has the m5 race from 6krpms in fisrt gear all the way up to 6th gear that will show how fast the m5 can be when driven to its max.
I am with you on some things you say about gust but the gall video is not right in my eyes
its well known that a 2wd car has less drive line loss than a 4wd like the gallrado
it has an audi quattro system and should be somewhere in the 18-22% drive loss
the 03 gall weighs 3600 lbs not that much less than an m5 with its closer gearing and better power to the ground from its 2 wheel drive system should not pull 5cls on the m5
the supersprint system did not pick up 50hp there car put down 529hp or 527hp stock(I cant remember but it was over fac specs)so it was only like 18hp from there car.I will look for there dynos but these are from memory and are out there somewhere.
did you not watch the m5 on the turkish autobahn that raced the 550 and 575 ferrari.It was neck to neck with those cars and was NOT a test car.
the sweedish stock m5 that put down 471whp was not selling anything it was a mag that just wanted to dyno the car.
it looks like in the gall vid that the gall was in 1st gear and the m in second not a very good way to get the most out of that car and in the second race it was at 5k
i will post a vid that has nothing to do with gust or any test car and has the m5 race from 6krpms in fisrt gear all the way up to 6th gear that will show how fast the m5 can be when driven to its max.
11-16-2005, 03:09 PM
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skratch77, have a look at the following, a direct road test comparison of the Gallardo and the M5. If neither the link or the image works, let me know: I have a local copy and will post it here later.
URL:
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/att...achmentid=8609
Image (if it works):
Hmm, I guess Gustav also censors our forums from linking to his attachments...how predictable of him.
Numbers show that at lower speeds Gallardo is significantly faster; gap closes a bit at higher speeds, and at very high speeds M5 is faster, but by then it would be pulling from behind. Authors of the article also report that Lambo reacts *far* more quickly to WOT and leaps out in front, until the M5 "fills its lungs", at which time both are more or less equal... So it is not Gustav's video that is the more believable, unless the driver of the M hopped on it significantly sooner than the Gallardo, at least a half second or so.
In such a case, even if two cars are dead even in a time-distance race, the car which hops on it first will finish the race ahead, because the first car hopped out to a 0.5 second time-distance advantage, which cannot be made up. Even if the car to hop on it second is faster, it will take it far, far more time to close the gap than if both cars started at exactly the same time.
This is why measured 1/4 mile races are important, and relevant. They remove driver reaction time from the equation and simply tell you how fast the cars can get from point a to point b. I would, however, like to see more magazines incorporate standing 1/2 mile tests, *and* rolling-start time-distance tests, but whatcha gonna do?
As to the M6, I do not find claims of it making 50 more hp than the M5 to be credible. 50 hp requires major engine mods in a nomally aspirated engine, which would raise production costs, and I doubt that BMW would do the additional R&D for such an endeavor, which makes no sense from a business perspective--particularly if it is not marketed.
URL:
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/att...achmentid=8609
Image (if it works):
Hmm, I guess Gustav also censors our forums from linking to his attachments...how predictable of him.
Numbers show that at lower speeds Gallardo is significantly faster; gap closes a bit at higher speeds, and at very high speeds M5 is faster, but by then it would be pulling from behind. Authors of the article also report that Lambo reacts *far* more quickly to WOT and leaps out in front, until the M5 "fills its lungs", at which time both are more or less equal... So it is not Gustav's video that is the more believable, unless the driver of the M hopped on it significantly sooner than the Gallardo, at least a half second or so.
In such a case, even if two cars are dead even in a time-distance race, the car which hops on it first will finish the race ahead, because the first car hopped out to a 0.5 second time-distance advantage, which cannot be made up. Even if the car to hop on it second is faster, it will take it far, far more time to close the gap than if both cars started at exactly the same time.
This is why measured 1/4 mile races are important, and relevant. They remove driver reaction time from the equation and simply tell you how fast the cars can get from point a to point b. I would, however, like to see more magazines incorporate standing 1/2 mile tests, *and* rolling-start time-distance tests, but whatcha gonna do?
As to the M6, I do not find claims of it making 50 more hp than the M5 to be credible. 50 hp requires major engine mods in a nomally aspirated engine, which would raise production costs, and I doubt that BMW would do the additional R&D for such an endeavor, which makes no sense from a business perspective--particularly if it is not marketed.
Last edited by Improviz; 11-16-2005 at 03:24 PM.
11-16-2005, 03:14 PM
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the link is not working but i know what your saying.I agree that the gall should be a little faster but not 5cls like that video.
the m5 and m6 are rumored to be underratted from the get go but until we see more dynos from are cars we cant really say yet.
the stock m5 at supersprint put down almost 530 hp and with there exh they made close to 550.Now if the same is said about the m6 having a better exh I can see where the m6 550hp rumors are coming from.
the m5 and m6 are rumored to be underratted from the get go but until we see more dynos from are cars we cant really say yet.
the stock m5 at supersprint put down almost 530 hp and with there exh they made close to 550.Now if the same is said about the m6 having a better exh I can see where the m6 550hp rumors are coming from.
Last edited by skratch77; 11-16-2005 at 03:23 PM.
11-16-2005, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by skratch77
the link is not working but i know what your saying.I agree that the gall should be a little faster but not 5cls like that video.
We'll see...hopefully Rick can score the M5, E55, and airfield to do some more runs.
Originally Posted by skratch77
the m5 and m6 are rumored to be underratted from the get go but until we see more dynos from are cars we cant really say yet.
the stock m5 at supersprint put down almost 530 hp and with there exh they made close to 550.Now if the same is said about the m6 having a better exh I can see where the m6 550hp rumors are coming from.
the stock m5 at supersprint put down almost 530 hp and with there exh they made close to 550.Now if the same is said about the m6 having a better exh I can see where the m6 550hp rumors are coming from.
Also, these cars already come with full headers and low restriction exhausts from the factory, so I would doubt even a 20 hp gain, even with fully open pipes.
Do point me to anything claiming a lower-restriction exhaust for the M6 if you can...I haven't seen it, but maybe they did do it....still, wouldn't pick up 50 hp.
11-16-2005, 03:41 PM
#74
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that dyno was acually just a guy that wanted to know what his car was putting down.It was not at supersprints shop.There stock dyno believe it or not put down a little more than this guys.
I remember reading that bmw wanted the m6 to be a little lauder than the m5 so it got a different exh system.
now if these cars are putting out 530 stock i can see them mabe squeezing close to 550 with an exh.
hartge and ac and power chips are claiming close to those numbers with there software downloads aswell.
edit im sorry the ss dyno was not 550 it was 543 after the exh.
I remember reading that bmw wanted the m6 to be a little lauder than the m5 so it got a different exh system.
now if these cars are putting out 530 stock i can see them mabe squeezing close to 550 with an exh.
hartge and ac and power chips are claiming close to those numbers with there software downloads aswell.
edit im sorry the ss dyno was not 550 it was 543 after the exh.
Last edited by skratch77; 11-16-2005 at 03:51 PM.
11-16-2005, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by skratch77
that dyno was acually just a guy that wanted to know what his car was putting down.It was not at supersprints shop.There stock dyno believe it or not put down a little more than this guys.
I remember reading that bmw wanted the m6 to be a little lauder than the m5 so it got a different exh system.
now if these cars are putting out 530 stock i can see them mabe squeezing close to 550 with an exh.
I remember reading that bmw wanted the m6 to be a little lauder than the m5 so it got a different exh system.
now if these cars are putting out 530 stock i can see them mabe squeezing close to 550 with an exh.
Another problem is that that dyno plot you gave is *estimating* the driveline loss....what I'd like to see is the rwhp. As I said: neither BMW nor Mercedes nor Audi nor any other manufacturer I'm aware of posts their driveline loss; further, this will vary from car to car, etc., with different oils, etc., so I'd prefer to see rwhp....I don't read German, but it would appear that the blue 427 ps is the rwhp(?) If so, they're using a 20% driveline loss...further, be aware that E55's and CLS55's have been dynoing out w/430 rwhp for some time now, as you can see by looking at the dyno plots posted in these forums....
Further, if you really want to a/b the M5 and M6, you'd need to do them on the same dyno, on the same day. Otherwise, there are too many variances, including the dynos themselves, to take an M5 done on 10/27/05 at Rolf's Dyno and compare it to an M6 done on 11/16/05 at Hanz's Dyno and Steak.
Originally Posted by skratch77
hartge and ac and power chips are claiming close to those numbers with there software downloads aswell.
So you can believe marketing claims and hype all you like, but I have as yet seen no third party objective tests to verify them, and the Car & Driver test shoots them full of holes.
