bassn_07

A while ago I purchased a Dashdaq-Innovative Motorsport wideband and after some issues with Innovative I decided to abandon them all together. My experience with Innovative was horrilbe and I would highly recommend not using them base on my experience. Don't want to go into details but I thought I would label Innovative as a "Buyer Beware" warning.


During a recent post Sneakyneon recommended Zeitronix and after speaking with them today they will be my next choice. The person I spoke to was well informed, patient, and places customer service to highest of degree. They also offer a Dashdaq-Zeitronix unit similar to the one I have. All I need to do is pay a small software fee through Dashdaq to make it compatible with Zeitronix's software .

Now for the questions. I plan on using the Dashdaq as s all in one unit to avoid multiple gauges. It will be a easy plug and play unit once the initial install is complete with the data logger easily removed. I plan on running dual AFR's, EGT gauge, MAP (boost), TPS, RPM, and possibly fuel pressure. This is where the question comes in, do you guys see any problems tapping into any of these features directly? Do you think it's overkill? Zeitronix claims that their hardware combined with the Dashdaq would take 60-65 samples per second.

I don't want my car looking like a race car inside and that's why I opted to go with a unit like the Dashdaq. A unit that's easily installed and removed in seconds with no evidence it was even there. This should happen soon and I'll keep everyone updated.

http://www.zeitronix.com/index.html

c32AMG-DTM

This thread may be of use:

https://mbworld.org/forums/c32-amg-c...d-afr-diy.html

jangy

I don't think it is overkill at all. I would go with a system that has room to expand. In the future, you can add on any sensor you want. I looked into it for handling. Last thing, I wonder if there isn't a way that we can splice into the car's own sensors vs getting them through the OBDII port? That way all you really need is the datalogger and can add sensors to suit.

Good luck with it and I'll be interested to see how it turns out.

moparrbust

I have a dashdaq in my Crossfire and I moniter 12(out of 25 possible on my car)parameters at the same time..........all the time..........and can datalog the info at the push of a touch screen button. I love it.

bassn_07

The problem with data logging through the OBDII port is that MB's read at a very slow rate. Depending on how many parameters you're monitoring the higher the number the slower the sampling rate per second gets. The most I could sample using the OBDII port is up to 4 parameters which gives me about 2-3 samples per second, any more than that it's useless. This is why I opted to use direct wiring and bypass the OBDII. Using this method I'll get up to 60-65 samples per second.

How hard will it be to tap into the RPM and TPS? Would there be a way to monitor the timing directly without getting too complicated?

bassn_07

Thanks, very helpful in understanding what needs to be done. I'll read it over more carefully later on this evening.

jangy

I understand the OBDII port itself is slow, but that doesn't mean that all the sensors feeding into the system are as well.

I am curious if we can buypass the OBDII and just tap into sensors currently in place.

As far as RPM, that would be easy. I have a baby handheld one that can measure the voltage sent to each spark plug and counts revs that way. They have MANY sensors for this at the race shop so i assume you can get what you want.

lolachampcar

The nice thing about using data from the car is you are viewing the same data the ECU is using to make its decisions. If map corrections are required, it is good to base those changes on data the ECU uses to do its cal. Our ME97 (all newer CAN based stuff except V12 TT ME2.7.2s) records at 10 samples per second and captures knock retard and such as well as the normal bits.

There is probably a way to do higher speed logging by accessing the Engine CAN bus on the ME 2.8.1s. I am working on a KLine (slow OBDii) data logger to partner with the ME2.8, ME2.8.1 (Komp) and ME2.7.1 (older TTV12) programmer that will record proprietary MB data values. This is being done mostly to support tuners that want to do remote tuning so that the tuner can see familiar data when the car is on the dyno thousands of miles away. Map edits can be made and files sent by Skype. The idea is to bring the tuner and the project closer together. I'll look at the Engine CAN traffic at the same time and try some of the MB proprietary data values on the CAN bus. It just might be possible to make a connector that simply "jumpers into" the older KLine car's Engine CAN bus and gets you the type of data and report rates that the newer cars enjoy.

MB_Forever

But the data given to the ECU maybe inaccurate if too slow, which would cause the ECU to compensate inaccurately as well. I've experienced this on the dyno in the past. Would there be a way to bypass the OBDII port and feed data directly to the ECU or at some faster rate?

Hammer Down

So in other words the OBDII is like "Dial Up?"

MB_Forever

Actually worse..... On the dyno, the car reached 7200 rpm for a split second a few times, but the OBDII port would record 6800 rpm as the last highest value Unless you hold the car for at least a second or longer, the OBDII rpm data maybe incorrect.

bassn_07

Okay guys, I just got off the phone with Needswings (Zeitronix distributor) and they are awesome!!!! The customer service is unbelievable and Rob spent a great deal of time with me assuring I get exactly what I want or need. Needswings is very familiar with MB's (C32's) and he was pointing out exactly where to mount my hardware. With the direct method I could log up to 200 samples per second, and OBDII it will be about 3 samples per second..... Damn are crap is slow!!!!!

Here's what I'll be data logging.

1. AFR (Direct)
2. EGT's (Direct)
3. Boost (Direct)
4. Fuel pressure (direct)
5. RPM and TPS (direct)
6. IAT's (OBDII)
7. Timing (direct, I think...haha)
8. Knock sensor voltage (direct)
9. Engine temps (OBDII)

And a couple others based off Rob's recommendations. Rob even suggested I send him my logging info and he would recommend where to add or reduce fuel or timing. Even though I have PC for this a 2nd opinion never hurts and Needswings is a well respected company.

MB_Forever

Good info Alan..... What about pricing and installation?

lolachampcar

Someone mentioned dial up which is not far from the truth. K-Line is 10,400 baud which is a very slow pipe to push much if any data through.

The ECU itself works at much higher sample rates. It is possible to pull data directly from the engine CAN bus which is roughly 50 times faster. It is matter of knowing how to ask the questions for which you want answers. I do not know how but am curious enough to look into it.

As for stand alone systems, the higher sample rates are great. I've used Motec dashes from some of my cars to pull data from street cars on occasions. It's just my preference when tuning to use the same data the ECU is using when making calibration changes provided the sample rate is sufficient (clearly not the case with KLine).

c32AMG-DTM

bassn 07, glad you're getting answers to your datalogging needs. Given several of the questions posted, I think you're the only person who bothered to read the thread I linked, LOL.

bassn_07

Thanks for the link!!! There's no doubt in my mind who I would recommend for data logging, hands down Zeitronix and speak with Rob at Needswings to order. I also want to thank Sneakyneon for pushing me towards Zeitronix. I remember a while ago in one of my threads he highly recommended Zeitronix, but instead I went with Innovative Motorsports . Live and learn.


This will by far be the ultimate logging system, I guarantee it...at least in my eyes. Given all the parameters I'll be logging my tuner should be able to make subtle changes in dialing in my car.

jangy

You have stumbled accross one of the gems in the industry. Looks like I will be getting the same setup. I have seen similar results from a crossfire done RIGHT and their tune source was very dialed in and prices are awesome!!

Check out needswings Intake manifolds. They are beauties! I am still waiting on an intake solution from them for the E55.

sneakyneon

There are lots of resources out there that will interchange or spawn no ideas of how to build a fast car, I was just telling alan to check out LXForums. the srt guys have so good inside tips.

Marcus Frost

Excellent thread! Alan you are definitely on the right track.

First off - I've spoken to lolachampcar numerous times before and think he could be invaluable when it comes to this discussion as he undoubtedly knows his stuff when it comes to engine management. I would definitely pay close attention to what he says.

With that said, I'm somewhat hesitant about tapping into actual sensor wiring. You know, that is inviting potential problems. When it comes to sensors you really don't want there to be any kind of weird resistance, voltage, or other fluctuations that can be caused from being tapped weird, or the unit you are tapping with, etc. I've always supported the idea of what lolachampcar mentioned - reading data off the CANbus. It's like he said, knowing what questions to ask. CANbus is a universal standard for communication and therefore provides a relatively simple medium - speaking from the perspective of software - to tap into a car's flow of data.

Nonetheless, it's great you've found a datalogger provider who's at LEAST willing to invest some time and effort along with you doing the same to come up with SOMETHING that we can actually start getting some useful information from. I would highly recommend trying to pull everything direct from the sensors otherwise it may be somewhat difficult to lineup the various datapoints depending on the alternating delays/etc that you may see reading them from different sources. Just a thought.

Good luck and please keep us posted.

-m

bassn_07

These are actually very legitimate concerns but since they've been working with the C32's for a while now I feel confident that they know what they're doing. Rob (needswings) knew everything about our engines and he actually walked me through my engine with the hood open explaining the whys, where, and what's I needed to know. If you ever get the time Marcus you should call and speak with him, I'm sure you'll feel the same.

I feel this is my best option and after my conversation with Rob I'm a 100% comfortable going this route. He's even willing to view my logs and make recommendations on adjustments needed to my tune. This will be the ultimate way to dial in my tune...key word DIAL IN.

bassn_07

Here's what it will look like once I'm finished. A couple of corrections were made to my list.

If you notice the timing graph (through the OBDII) it's very blockish when compared to the direct readings. This is how slow it is through our OBDII's

1. AFR (Direct)
2. EGT's (Direct)
3. Boost (Direct)
4. Fuel pressure (direct)
5. RPM and TPS (direct)
6. IAT's (OBDII)
7. Timing (OBDII)
8. Knock sensor voltage (direct)
9. Engine temps (OBDII)

lolachampcar

Please do not take my comments as negative regarding any data logger. They are not and I have also used exteral logging devices.

My comments were more directed towards what I feel is the best data for the Tuner to use in making Calibration changes. It is my personal preference that ECU data is used for the reasons listed above.

Said Again - NO NEGATIVE COMMENTS FROM ME

bassn_07

Trust me, I'm not taking any of your comments in a negative way. To tell the truth I don't even fully understand what you're saying.... I"m still a newbie so forgive my ignorance .

I'm actually going to relay your post to the Needswings and see what they say.

bassn_07

Marcus, I forwarded your concerns to Rob and this was his response.

Does anyone know where I could get the info requested?

"Send over a pdf copy of the e55 service manual and wire diagram"

lolachampcar

I've been playing with ME2.8.1 KLine logging and there are two proprietary data sets that seem useful. They are Knock for all 8 cylinders and Mixture before and after the cats for both banks.

The quickest I can get both data sets out is in about .65 seconds so the sample rate is not going to be stellar. One nice thing is that both the knock and mixture data sets include Load and RPM so at least these two will be time aligned with their respective data pairs.

That external data logger is sure looking good for higher data rates.