Dashdaq-Zeitronix data log setup
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2006 E55 AMG
Dashdaq-Zeitronix data log setup
A while ago I purchased a Dashdaq-Innovative Motorsport wideband and after some issues with Innovative I decided to abandon them all together. My experience with Innovative was horrilbe and I would highly recommend not using them base on my experience. Don't want to go into details but I thought I would label Innovative as a "Buyer Beware" warning.
During a recent post Sneakyneon recommended Zeitronix and after speaking with them today they will be my next choice. The person I spoke to was well informed, patient, and places customer service to highest of degree. They also offer a Dashdaq-Zeitronix unit similar to the one I have. All I need to do is pay a small software fee through Dashdaq to make it compatible with Zeitronix's software
.
Now for the questions. I plan on using the Dashdaq as s all in one unit to avoid multiple gauges. It will be a easy plug and play unit once the initial install is complete with the data logger easily removed. I plan on running dual AFR's, EGT gauge, MAP (boost), TPS, RPM, and possibly fuel pressure. This is where the question comes in, do you guys see any problems tapping into any of these features directly? Do you think it's overkill? Zeitronix claims that their hardware combined with the Dashdaq would take 60-65 samples per second.
I don't want my car looking like a race car inside and that's why I opted to go with a unit like the Dashdaq. A unit that's easily installed and removed in seconds with no evidence it was even there. This should happen soon and I'll keep everyone updated.
http://www.zeitronix.com/index.html
During a recent post Sneakyneon recommended Zeitronix and after speaking with them today they will be my next choice. The person I spoke to was well informed, patient, and places customer service to highest of degree. They also offer a Dashdaq-Zeitronix unit similar to the one I have. All I need to do is pay a small software fee through Dashdaq to make it compatible with Zeitronix's software
. Now for the questions. I plan on using the Dashdaq as s all in one unit to avoid multiple gauges. It will be a easy plug and play unit once the initial install is complete with the data logger easily removed. I plan on running dual AFR's, EGT gauge, MAP (boost), TPS, RPM, and possibly fuel pressure. This is where the question comes in, do you guys see any problems tapping into any of these features directly? Do you think it's overkill? Zeitronix claims that their hardware combined with the Dashdaq would take 60-65 samples per second.
I don't want my car looking like a race car inside and that's why I opted to go with a unit like the Dashdaq. A unit that's easily installed and removed in seconds with no evidence it was even there. This should happen soon and I'll keep everyone updated.
http://www.zeitronix.com/index.html
Last edited by bassn_07; Sep 8, 2009 at 08:29 PM.
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2015 S212
I don't think it is overkill at all. I would go with a system that has room to expand. In the future, you can add on any sensor you want. I looked into it for handling. Last thing, I wonder if there isn't a way that we can splice into the car's own sensors vs getting them through the OBDII port? That way all you really need is the datalogger and can add sensors to suit.
Good luck with it and I'll be interested to see how it turns out.
Good luck with it and I'll be interested to see how it turns out.
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2005 Crossfire SRT-6
I have a dashdaq in my Crossfire and I moniter 12(out of 25 possible on my car)parameters at the same time..........all the time..........and can datalog the info at the push of a touch screen button. I love it.
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2006 E55 AMG
The problem with data logging through the OBDII port is that MB's read at a very slow rate. Depending on how many parameters you're monitoring the higher the number the slower the sampling rate per second gets. The most I could sample using the OBDII port is up to 4 parameters which gives me about 2-3 samples per second, any more than that it's useless. This is why I opted to use direct wiring and bypass the OBDII. Using this method I'll get up to 60-65 samples per second.
How hard will it be to tap into the RPM and TPS? Would there be a way to monitor the timing directly without getting too complicated?
How hard will it be to tap into the RPM and TPS? Would there be a way to monitor the timing directly without getting too complicated?
Thread Starter
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2006 E55 AMG
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From: San Diego
2015 S212
The problem with data logging through the OBDII port is that MB's read at a very slow rate. Depending on how many parameters you're monitoring the higher the number the slower the sampling rate per second gets. The most I could sample using the OBDII port is up to 4 parameters which gives me about 2-3 samples per second, any more than that it's useless. This is why I opted to use direct wiring and bypass the OBDII. Using this method I'll get up to 60-65 samples per second.
How hard will it be to tap into the RPM and TPS? Would there be a way to monitor the timing directly without getting too complicated?
How hard will it be to tap into the RPM and TPS? Would there be a way to monitor the timing directly without getting too complicated?
I understand the OBDII port itself is slow, but that doesn't mean that all the sensors feeding into the system are as well.
I am curious if we can buypass the OBDII and just tap into sensors currently in place.
As far as RPM, that would be easy. I have a baby handheld one that can measure the voltage sent to each spark plug and counts revs that way. They have MANY sensors for this at the race shop so i assume you can get what you want.
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12C P85DL
The nice thing about using data from the car is you are viewing the same data the ECU is using to make its decisions. If map corrections are required, it is good to base those changes on data the ECU uses to do its cal. Our ME97 (all newer CAN based stuff except V12 TT ME2.7.2s) records at 10 samples per second and captures knock retard and such as well as the normal bits.
There is probably a way to do higher speed logging by accessing the Engine CAN bus on the ME 2.8.1s. I am working on a KLine (slow OBDii) data logger to partner with the ME2.8, ME2.8.1 (Komp) and ME2.7.1 (older TTV12) programmer that will record proprietary MB data values. This is being done mostly to support tuners that want to do remote tuning so that the tuner can see familiar data when the car is on the dyno thousands of miles away. Map edits can be made and files sent by Skype. The idea is to bring the tuner and the project closer together. I'll look at the Engine CAN traffic at the same time and try some of the MB proprietary data values on the CAN bus. It just might be possible to make a connector that simply "jumpers into" the older KLine car's Engine CAN bus and gets you the type of data and report rates that the newer cars enjoy.
There is probably a way to do higher speed logging by accessing the Engine CAN bus on the ME 2.8.1s. I am working on a KLine (slow OBDii) data logger to partner with the ME2.8, ME2.8.1 (Komp) and ME2.7.1 (older TTV12) programmer that will record proprietary MB data values. This is being done mostly to support tuners that want to do remote tuning so that the tuner can see familiar data when the car is on the dyno thousands of miles away. Map edits can be made and files sent by Skype. The idea is to bring the tuner and the project closer together. I'll look at the Engine CAN traffic at the same time and try some of the MB proprietary data values on the CAN bus. It just might be possible to make a connector that simply "jumpers into" the older KLine car's Engine CAN bus and gets you the type of data and report rates that the newer cars enjoy.
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E63 P30, CL500 Sport
The nice thing about using data from the car is you are viewing the same data the ECU is using to make its decisions. If map corrections are required, it is good to base those changes on data the ECU uses to do its cal. Our ME97 (all newer CAN based stuff except V12 TT ME2.7.2s) records at 10 samples per second and captures knock retard and such as well as the normal bits.
There is probably a way to do higher speed logging by accessing the Engine CAN bus on the ME 2.8.1s. I am working on a KLine (slow OBDii) data logger to partner with the ME2.8, ME2.8.1 (Komp) and ME2.7.1 (older TTV12) programmer that will record proprietary MB data values. This is being done mostly to support tuners that want to do remote tuning so that the tuner can see familiar data when the car is on the dyno thousands of miles away. Map edits can be made and files sent by Skype. The idea is to bring the tuner and the project closer together. I'll look at the Engine CAN traffic at the same time and try some of the MB proprietary data values on the CAN bus. It just might be possible to make a connector that simply "jumpers into" the older KLine car's Engine CAN bus and gets you the type of data and report rates that the newer cars enjoy.
There is probably a way to do higher speed logging by accessing the Engine CAN bus on the ME 2.8.1s. I am working on a KLine (slow OBDii) data logger to partner with the ME2.8, ME2.8.1 (Komp) and ME2.7.1 (older TTV12) programmer that will record proprietary MB data values. This is being done mostly to support tuners that want to do remote tuning so that the tuner can see familiar data when the car is on the dyno thousands of miles away. Map edits can be made and files sent by Skype. The idea is to bring the tuner and the project closer together. I'll look at the Engine CAN traffic at the same time and try some of the MB proprietary data values on the CAN bus. It just might be possible to make a connector that simply "jumpers into" the older KLine car's Engine CAN bus and gets you the type of data and report rates that the newer cars enjoy.
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2015 E63S, 2018 E63S
The problem with data logging through the OBDII port is that MB's read at a very slow rate. Depending on how many parameters you're monitoring the higher the number the slower the sampling rate per second gets. The most I could sample using the OBDII port is up to 4 parameters which gives me about 2-3 samples per second, any more than that it's useless. This is why I opted to use direct wiring and bypass the OBDII. Using this method I'll get up to 60-65 samples per second.
How hard will it be to tap into the RPM and TPS? Would there be a way to monitor the timing directly without getting too complicated?
How hard will it be to tap into the RPM and TPS? Would there be a way to monitor the timing directly without getting too complicated?
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E63 P30, CL500 Sport
Actually worse..... 
On the dyno, the car reached 7200 rpm for a split second a few times, but the OBDII port would record 6800 rpm as the last highest value 
Unless you hold the car for at least a second or longer, the OBDII rpm data maybe incorrect.
On the dyno, the car reached 7200 rpm for a split second a few times, but the OBDII port would record 6800 rpm as the last highest value Unless you hold the car for at least a second or longer, the OBDII rpm data maybe incorrect.
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2006 E55 AMG
Okay guys, I just got off the phone with Needswings (Zeitronix distributor) and they are awesome!!!! The customer service is unbelievable and Rob spent a great deal of time with me assuring I get exactly what I want or need. Needswings is very familiar with MB's (C32's) and he was pointing out exactly where to mount my hardware. With the direct method I could log up to 200 samples per second, and OBDII it will be about 3 samples per second....
. Damn are crap is slow!!!!!
Here's what I'll be data logging.
1. AFR (Direct)
2. EGT's (Direct)
3. Boost (Direct)
4. Fuel pressure (direct)
5. RPM and TPS (direct)
6. IAT's (OBDII)
7. Timing (direct, I think...haha)
8. Knock sensor voltage (direct)
9. Engine temps (OBDII)
And a couple others based off Rob's recommendations. Rob even suggested I send him my logging info and he would recommend where to add or reduce fuel or timing. Even though I have PC for this a 2nd opinion never hurts and Needswings is a well respected company.
. Damn are crap is slow!!!!!Here's what I'll be data logging.
1. AFR (Direct)
2. EGT's (Direct)
3. Boost (Direct)
4. Fuel pressure (direct)
5. RPM and TPS (direct)
6. IAT's (OBDII)
7. Timing (direct, I think...haha)
8. Knock sensor voltage (direct)
9. Engine temps (OBDII)
And a couple others based off Rob's recommendations. Rob even suggested I send him my logging info and he would recommend where to add or reduce fuel or timing. Even though I have PC for this a 2nd opinion never hurts and Needswings is a well respected company.
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From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
Okay guys, I just got off the phone with Needswings (Zeitronix distributor) and they are awesome!!!! The customer service is unbelievable and Rob spent a great deal of time with me assuring I get exactly what I want or need. Needswings is very familiar with MB's (C32's) and he was pointing out exactly where to mount my hardware. With the direct method I could log up to 200 samples per second, and OBDII it will be about 3 samples per second..... Damn are crap is slow!!!!!
Here's what I'll be data logging.
1. AFR (Direct)
2. EGT's (Direct)
3. Boost (Direct)
4. Fuel pressure (direct)
5. RPM and TPS (direct)
6. IAT's (OBDII)
7. Timing (direct, I think...haha)
8. Knock sensor voltage (direct)
9. Engine temps (OBDII)
And a couple others based off Rob's recommendations. Rob even suggested I send him my logging info and he would recommend where to add or reduce fuel or timing. Even though I have PC for this a 2nd opinion never hurts and Needswings is a well respected company.
. Damn are crap is slow!!!!!Here's what I'll be data logging.
1. AFR (Direct)
2. EGT's (Direct)
3. Boost (Direct)
4. Fuel pressure (direct)
5. RPM and TPS (direct)
6. IAT's (OBDII)
7. Timing (direct, I think...haha)
8. Knock sensor voltage (direct)
9. Engine temps (OBDII)
And a couple others based off Rob's recommendations. Rob even suggested I send him my logging info and he would recommend where to add or reduce fuel or timing. Even though I have PC for this a 2nd opinion never hurts and Needswings is a well respected company.
What about pricing and installation?
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12C P85DL
But the data given to the ECU maybe inaccurate if too slow, which would cause the ECU to compensate inaccurately as well. I've experienced this on the dyno in the past. Would there be a way to bypass the OBDII port and feed data directly to the ECU or at some faster rate?
The ECU itself works at much higher sample rates. It is possible to pull data directly from the engine CAN bus which is roughly 50 times faster. It is matter of knowing how to ask the questions for which you want answers. I do not know how but am curious enough to look into it.
As for stand alone systems, the higher sample rates are great. I've used Motec dashes from some of my cars to pull data from street cars on occasions. It's just my preference when tuning to use the same data the ECU is using when making calibration changes provided the sample rate is sufficient (clearly not the case with KLine).
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2008 A8L, 2002 996TT X50, 2009 X5
bassn 07, glad you're getting answers to your datalogging needs. Given several of the questions posted, I think you're the only person who bothered to read the thread I linked, LOL. 
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2006 E55 AMG
. Live and learn.This will by far be the ultimate logging system, I guarantee it...at least in my eyes. Given all the parameters I'll be logging my tuner should be able to make subtle changes in dialing in my car.
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2015 S212
Check out needswings Intake manifolds. They are beauties! I am still waiting on an intake solution from them for the E55.
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Bicycle
You have stumbled accross one of the gems in the industry. Looks like I will be getting the same setup. I have seen similar results from a crossfire done RIGHT and their tune source was very dialed in and prices are awesome!!
Check out needswings Intake manifolds. They are beauties! I am still waiting on an intake solution from them for the E55.
Check out needswings Intake manifolds. They are beauties! I am still waiting on an intake solution from them for the E55.
Last edited by sneakyneon; Sep 9, 2009 at 11:25 PM.
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Real Cars
Excellent thread! Alan you are definitely on the right track.
First off - I've spoken to lolachampcar numerous times before and think he could be invaluable when it comes to this discussion as he undoubtedly knows his stuff when it comes to engine management. I would definitely pay close attention to what he says.
With that said, I'm somewhat hesitant about tapping into actual sensor wiring. You know, that is inviting potential problems. When it comes to sensors you really don't want there to be any kind of weird resistance, voltage, or other fluctuations that can be caused from being tapped weird, or the unit you are tapping with, etc. I've always supported the idea of what lolachampcar mentioned - reading data off the CANbus. It's like he said, knowing what questions to ask. CANbus is a universal standard for communication and therefore provides a relatively simple medium - speaking from the perspective of software - to tap into a car's flow of data.
Nonetheless, it's great you've found a datalogger provider who's at LEAST willing to invest some time and effort along with you doing the same to come up with SOMETHING that we can actually start getting some useful information from. I would highly recommend trying to pull everything direct from the sensors otherwise it may be somewhat difficult to lineup the various datapoints depending on the alternating delays/etc that you may see reading them from different sources. Just a thought.
Good luck and please keep us posted.
-m
First off - I've spoken to lolachampcar numerous times before and think he could be invaluable when it comes to this discussion as he undoubtedly knows his stuff when it comes to engine management. I would definitely pay close attention to what he says.
With that said, I'm somewhat hesitant about tapping into actual sensor wiring. You know, that is inviting potential problems. When it comes to sensors you really don't want there to be any kind of weird resistance, voltage, or other fluctuations that can be caused from being tapped weird, or the unit you are tapping with, etc. I've always supported the idea of what lolachampcar mentioned - reading data off the CANbus. It's like he said, knowing what questions to ask. CANbus is a universal standard for communication and therefore provides a relatively simple medium - speaking from the perspective of software - to tap into a car's flow of data.
Nonetheless, it's great you've found a datalogger provider who's at LEAST willing to invest some time and effort along with you doing the same to come up with SOMETHING that we can actually start getting some useful information from. I would highly recommend trying to pull everything direct from the sensors otherwise it may be somewhat difficult to lineup the various datapoints depending on the alternating delays/etc that you may see reading them from different sources. Just a thought.
Good luck and please keep us posted.
-m
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2006 E55 AMG
With that said, I'm somewhat hesitant about tapping into actual sensor wiring. You know, that is inviting potential problems. When it comes to sensors you really don't want there to be any kind of weird resistance, voltage, or other fluctuations that can be caused from being tapped weird, or the unit you are tapping with, etc. I've always supported the idea of what lolachampcar mentioned - reading data off the CANbus. It's like he said, knowing what questions to ask. CANbus is a universal standard for communication and therefore provides a relatively simple medium - speaking from the perspective of software - to tap into a car's flow of data.
I feel this is my best option and after my conversation with Rob I'm a 100% comfortable going this route. He's even willing to view my logs and make recommendations on adjustments needed to my tune. This will be the ultimate way to dial in my tune...key word DIAL IN.
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2006 E55 AMG
Here's what it will look like once I'm finished. A couple of corrections were made to my list.
If you notice the timing graph (through the OBDII) it's very blockish when compared to the direct readings. This is how slow it is through our OBDII's
1. AFR (Direct)
2. EGT's (Direct)
3. Boost (Direct)
4. Fuel pressure (direct)
5. RPM and TPS (direct)
6. IAT's (OBDII)
7. Timing (OBDII)
8. Knock sensor voltage (direct)
9. Engine temps (OBDII)
If you notice the timing graph (through the OBDII) it's very blockish when compared to the direct readings. This is how slow it is through our OBDII's
1. AFR (Direct)
2. EGT's (Direct)
3. Boost (Direct)
4. Fuel pressure (direct)
5. RPM and TPS (direct)
6. IAT's (OBDII)
7. Timing (OBDII)
8. Knock sensor voltage (direct)
9. Engine temps (OBDII)
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12C P85DL
Please do not take my comments as negative regarding any data logger. They are not and I have also used exteral logging devices.
My comments were more directed towards what I feel is the best data for the Tuner to use in making Calibration changes. It is my personal preference that ECU data is used for the reasons listed above.
Said Again - NO NEGATIVE COMMENTS FROM ME
My comments were more directed towards what I feel is the best data for the Tuner to use in making Calibration changes. It is my personal preference that ECU data is used for the reasons listed above.
Said Again - NO NEGATIVE COMMENTS FROM ME
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,077
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2006 E55 AMG
Please do not take my comments as negative regarding any data logger. They are not and I have also used exteral logging devices.
My comments were more directed towards what I feel is the best data for the Tuner to use in making Calibration changes. It is my personal preference that ECU data is used for the reasons listed above.
Said Again - NO NEGATIVE COMMENTS FROM ME
My comments were more directed towards what I feel is the best data for the Tuner to use in making Calibration changes. It is my personal preference that ECU data is used for the reasons listed above.
Said Again - NO NEGATIVE COMMENTS FROM ME
. I"m still a newbie so forgive my ignorance . I'm actually going to relay your post to the Needswings and see what they say.
Thread Starter
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2006 E55 AMG
With that said, I'm somewhat hesitant about tapping into actual sensor wiring. You know, that is inviting potential problems. When it comes to sensors you really don't want there to be any kind of weird resistance, voltage, or other fluctuations that can be caused from being tapped weird, or the unit you are tapping with, etc. I've always supported the idea of what lolachampcar mentioned - reading data off the CANbus. It's like he said, knowing what questions to ask. CANbus is a universal standard for communication and therefore provides a relatively simple medium - speaking from the perspective of software - to tap into a car's flow of data.
Yes, the rpm, tps, knock, boost, egt, timing (if we wire it), and fuel pressure will all sample more than quick enough for us. The AIT, ECT, ect we don’t need the fast rate as they change gradually and that we can see thru the obd2 port, same scenario for timing as it’s a fairly flat curve at WOT and large changes would surely be seen even thru obd2. For the wires we run manually we tap them off the wires to the pcm, we get very quick data and the Zeitronix does not alter the signal, just watches the voltage.
Send over a pdf copy of the e55 service manual and wire diagram
Send over a pdf copy of the e55 service manual and wire diagram
"Send over a pdf copy of the e55 service manual and wire diagram"
Last edited by bassn_07; Sep 10, 2009 at 10:26 PM.
Senior Member
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Posts: 329
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12C P85DL
I've been playing with ME2.8.1 KLine logging and there are two proprietary data sets that seem useful. They are Knock for all 8 cylinders and Mixture before and after the cats for both banks.
The quickest I can get both data sets out is in about .65 seconds so the sample rate is not going to be stellar. One nice thing is that both the knock and mixture data sets include Load and RPM so at least these two will be time aligned with their respective data pairs.
That external data logger is sure looking good for higher data rates.
The quickest I can get both data sets out is in about .65 seconds so the sample rate is not going to be stellar. One nice thing is that both the knock and mixture data sets include Load and RPM so at least these two will be time aligned with their respective data pairs.
That external data logger is sure looking good for higher data rates.
