MBVert

After clearly examining the evidence, I have a bone to pick with any tuner that blames everyone but themselves in this situation. I don't have a dog in this fight so to speak, however, what I see being done to the customer is wrong and makes the entire aftermarket look bad.

MBVert

Read my first post in this thread, if have further questions, post them. I've said it before and I'll say it again, take the pics to someone you trust, you don't have to believe me. This thread is painful, it's like looking at a compound fracture (bone sticking out of the skin), with everyone standing around asking you think it's broken? Are you kidding me?

jcjmw

PLEASE post the evidence. I and, I dare say, others on this forum want to see the hard evidence, the raw data. No just words or opinions, but the actually data and evidence. You have posted pics of the engine. Can you also post pics of all the 16 plugs? How about the data from the LET / EC tune showing the improper timing advance? How about the data from the LET / EC tune showing the low or improper AF ratio? How about the data from Loco's ECU right before, during and right after the engine blew? If LET / EC did cause the damage to Loco's car, then I and possibly others on this forum will no doubt avoid them. That is a harsh result, especially in this economy, on a business. But, its what this forum is for, to share our experiences. I commend Loco for disclosing. It looks like you want to help him and have others believe that the engine blew due to a tune. Ok, show me the raw data, please. However, if a newbie comes out of nowhere, starts making attacking posts and calls his or her opinion facts, then I question it. With that said, please post your evidence, not your opinion, but the actual evidence and let the chips fall where they may.

You say that you do not have a dog in this fight, "so to speak." Either you do or you don't. If you would, please clarify.

Also, do you know the other two newbies that posted to this thread?

jcjmw

Just so that I am clear, your opinion as to the cause of Loco's engine blowing is due to pics you posted in this thread? No other pics? No other data? Nothing else? Just those posted pics?

MBVert

The OP posted all the evidence necessary for anyone with a clue to determine the cause of death of this motor. Again literally anyone that's ever worked on a motor (hell, take the pics down to Tuffy, it's not rocket science, it's detonation) can tell just by the pics posted why this motor was toast. I don't need to see the actual tune, we see carnage like this from negligent tuners all the time, and like I said before motors are motors. Euro, domestic, asian, detonation makes them all look the same. Again you can reference the timing table posted by EC regarding the once N/A CLK now with 10psi running irresponsibly aggressive advance for more evidence if you'd like. Those numbers speak volumes as well.Last time I checked "no dog in this fight" meant I don't have anything to gain by posting here. Just trying to help educate some members (read first post for clear breakdown) and disprove some of the BS posted (oil/plug change intervals, etc). As far as newbie, again, new to this forum, been tuning cars for over 12 years and I've never lost a motor. Take it as you will. I'm not here to fight with you. Just point out basic facts everyone should know.

MBVert

No it's not all I know about the situation, however it is all I need to make the diagnosis. I work in this business, it's quite clear you don't. When we receive a motor to rebuild that's been toasted, we don't call the last shop/tuner to tell them they F'd up or ask for a file, we know what caused the damage it's OBVIOUS. If it's not to you, then you simply don't know what you're looking at.

emoving

It is obvious from the join date and the instant injection into this thread that MBvewrt is not credible and should not be taken serious. You are either someone directly related to Loco or have something to gain here. It doesnt take a genius to figure this out! LOL jcjmw, I wouldt even wast time arguing with this tool!

jcjmw

Ok, its detonation. What is the cause of the detonation? You say its the tune but others say its not the tune. Please educate me as to why you say its the tune that is causing the detonation? Did you see the LET / EC's tune on Loco's car? What part of that LET / EC's tune on Loco's car caused the detonation? Since you have tuned cars for 12 years, then please pull the tune from Loco's ECU and post it hear in this thread as to why you believe its the tune that caused the detonation. If you are right that was the tune that caused the detonation, then please post the areas, sections or raw data from LET / EC's tune that you believe caused the detonation? Please "point out the basic facts" from that LET / EC tune that you believe caused the detonation and educate me.

jcjmw

Ok, so what else about this situation that we need to know? Please disclose. You are right that I am not in your business / industry. However, you did ask who cares why a newbie joined this thread and that you are just posting facts. I care and I would like to know the facts. Please post those facts. If all you did was just review the engine and opined that detonation caused the damage, then what caused the detonation? If its mechanical, then I will bet everyone on this forum will check that mechanical part on their car to make sure the same mechanical cause does not happen and the purpose of this forums is achieved - b/c of you and that would mean you helped everyone avoid engine problems. If its raw data showing its the tune and you reviewed that raw data, then we will be avoiding LET / EC and your goal of wanting everyone to avoid LET / EC is achieved. With that said, what raw data do you have to show that its LET / EC's tune that caused the detonation? Please educate me.

RisingESun

MBvert or anyone, can you please tell me a tuner you would reccomend.
P.S.
You can PM me if that would be better.
Thanks

citylightva

Tuning a whole crapload of BS into this thread...I think a lot of people know what blown motors looks like and why they physically blew...Just continuing to say detonation doesn't mean jack...I'm starting to wonder if you know any other words...Noob...

+Infinity...

MBVert

I have to laugh, it's obvious that I joined this forum to post in this thread, in fact I even stated it. After reading the bent rods, 3k plug change interval comments then that we were going to get another lecture about maintenance, I decided I couldn't take it anymore. Did you notice that the claims made in my initial post were not addressed in any way by the tuner? I've never met or communicated with the owner of this vehicle/motor. I have no interest in tuning European vehicles so what do I have to gain? Thanks for reminding me why I typically don't waste time posting on the internet. Believe me when I tell you those that have the most knowledge don't waste their time here either.

MBVert

In the other blown motor thread you stated that you think optimal A/F for a N/A motor was between 11 and 12, also that you have no idea what would be optimal for a 55K. From your posts it's easy to see you don't work on cars for a living. Most people in this forum probably don't and there's nothing wrong with that. The thing is you need to remember this isn't 2nd grade where everybody's a winner. How many times do I need to say it, the motor had too much timing in it everything--hot spot on piston, smoked ringland/rings, hole in sleeve, melted electrodes--points to that. Reread my initial post.

emoving

What AMG do you drive MBVert and is tuned?

c32AMG-DTM

I think x SPY x, or whatever his name is, posted the pics; not MBVert. Will have to go back and see, but that's what I remember.

LOCO (or his mechanic) said that they are installing a new/rebuilt motor, and will load the exact same tune and datalog to check all the parameters.

I hope most can agree with this: we don't know for absolute certainty what caused LOCO's failure at this point. That said, it seems reasonable to conclude that the custom dyno tune is the #1 suspect - just based on the chronology of events as explained by LOCO. I mean, if the car's running tip top, gets a custom tune (with a boatload more hp/tq) and nothing else is changed, and pops a motor within a few hundred miles... it is reasonable to suspect the tune was primarily responsible for the failure, isn't it?

Let's all reserve judgement until further evidence is revealed. Can a moderator/admin please explain why x SPY x's posts were deleted? Was he also banned? Thank you.

nick 55

Taken from a technical article in Contact Magazine, January 2000.

"Broken piston ring lands are the most typical result of detonation but are usually not spotted. If the engine has detonated visual signs like broken spark plug porcelains or broken ground electrodes are dead giveaways and call for further examination or engine disassembly.

It is also very difficult to sense detonation while an engine is running in an remote and insulated dyno test cell. One technique seems almost elementary but, believe it or not, it is employed in some of the highest priced dyno cells in the world. We refer to it as the "Tin Ear". You might think of it as a simple stethoscope applied to the engine block. We run a ordinary rubber hose from the dyno operator area next to the engine. To amplify the engine sounds we just stick the end of the hose through the bottom of a Styrofoam cup and listen in! It is common for ride test engineers to use this method on development cars particularly if there is a suspicion out on the road borderline detonation is occurring. Try it on your engine; you will be amazed at how well you can hear the different engine noises.

The other technique is a little more subtle but usable if attention is paid to EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature). Detonation will actually cause EGTs to drop. This behavior has fooled a lot of people because they will watch the EGT and think that it is in a low enough range to be safe, the only reason it is low is because the engine is detonating.

The only way you know what is actually happening is to be very familiar with your specific engine EGT readings as calibrations and probe locations vary. If, for example, you normally run 1500 degrees at a given MAP setting and you suddenly see 1125 after picking up a fresh load of fuel you should be alert to possible or incipient detonation. Any drop from normal EGT should be reason for concern. Using the "Tin Ear" during the early test stage and watching the EGT very carefully, other than just plain listening with your ear without any augmentation, is the only way to identify detonation. The good thing is, most engines will live with a fairly high level of detonation for some period of time. It is not an instantaneous type failure.

PRE-IGNITION
The definition of pre-ignition is the ignition of the fuel/air charge prior to the spark plug firing. Pre-ignition caused by some other ignition source such as an overheated spark plug tip, carbon deposits in the combustion chamber and, rarely, a burned exhaust valve; all act as a glow plug to ignite the charge.

Keep in mind the following sequence when analyzing pre-ignition. The charge enters the combustion chamber as the piston reaches BDC for intake; the piston next reverses direction and starts to compress the charge. Since the spark voltage requirements to light the charge increase in proportion with the amount of charge compression; almost anything can ignite the proper fuel/air mixture at BDC!! BDC or before is the easiest time to light that mixture. It becomes progressively more difficult as the pressure starts to build.

A glowing spot somewhere in the chamber is the most likely point for pre-ignition to occur. It is very conceivable that if you have something glowing, like a spark plug tip or a carbon ember, it could ignite the charge while the piston is very early in the compression stoke. The result is understandable; for the entire compression stroke, or a great portion of it, the engine is trying to compress a hot mass of expanded gas. That obviously puts tremendous load on the engine and adds tremendous heat into its parts. Substantial damage occurs very quickly. You can't hear it because there is no rapid pressure rise. This all occurs well before the spark plug fires.

Remember, the spark plug ignites the mixture and a sharp pressure spike occurs after that, when the detonation occurs. That's what you hear. With pre-ignition, the ignition of the charge happens far ahead of the spark plug firing, in my example, very, very far ahead of it when the compression stroke just starts. There is no very rapid pressure spike like with detonation. Instead, it is a tremendous amount of pressure which is present for a very long dwell time, i.e., the entire compression stroke. That's what puts such large loads on the parts. There is no sharp pressure spike to resonate the block and the head to cause any noise. So you never hear it, the engine just blows up! That's why pre-ignition is so insidious. It is hardly detectable before it occurs. When it occurs you only know about it after the fact. It causes a catastrophic failure very quickly because the heat and pressures are so intense.

An engine can live with detonation occurring for considerable periods of time, relatively speaking. There are no engines that will live for any period of time when pre-ignition occurs. When people see broken ring lands they mistakenly blame it on pre-ignition and overlook the hammering from detonation that caused the problem. A hole in the middle of the piston, particularly a melt ed hole in the middle of a piston, is due to the extreme heat and pressure of pre-ignition.

Other signs of pre-ignition are melted spark plugs showing splattered, melted, fused looking porcelain. Many times a "pre-ignited plug" will melt away the ground electrode. What's left will look all spattered and fuzzy looking. The center electrode will be melted and gone and its porcelain will be spattered and melted. This is a typical sign of incipient pre-ignition.

The plug may be getting hot, melting and "getting ready" to act as a pre-ignition source. The plug can actually melt without pre-ignition occurring. However, the melted plug can cause pre-ignition the next time around.

Thetypical pre-ignition indicator, of course, would be the hole in the piston. This occurs because in trying to compress the already burned mixture the parts soak up a tremendous amount of heat very quickly. The only ones that survive are the ones that have a high thermal inertia, like the cylinder head or cylinder wall. The piston, being aluminum, has a low thermal inertia (aluminum soaks up the heat very rapidly). The crown of the piston is relatively thin, it gets very hot, it can't reject the heat, it has tremendous pressure loads against it and the result is a hole in the middle of the piston where it is weakest.

I want to emphasis that when most people think of pre-ignition they generally accept the fact that the charge was ignited before the spark plug fires. However, I believe they limit their thinking to 5-10 degrees before the spark plug fires. You have to really accept that the most likely point for pre-ignition to occur is 180 degrees BTDC, some 160 degrees before the spark plug would have fired because that's the point (if there is a glowing ember in the chamber) when it's most likely to be ignited. We are talking some 160-180 degrees of bum being compressed that would normally be relatively cool. A piston will only take a few revolutions of that distress before it fails. As for detonation, it can get hammered on for seconds, minutes, or hours depending on the output of the engine and the load, before any damage occurs. Pre-ignition damage is almost instantaneous.

When the piston crown temperature rises rapidly it never has time to get to the skirt and expand and cause it to scuff. It just melts the center right out of the piston. That's the biggest difference between detonation and pre-ignition when looking at piston failures. Without a high pressure spike to resonate the chamber and block, you would never hear pre-ignition. The only sign of pre-ignition is white smoke pouring out the tailpipe and the engine quits running.

The engine will not run more than a few seconds with pre-ignition. The only way to control pre-ignition is just keep any pre-ignition sources at bay. Spark plugs should be carefully matched to the recommended heat range. Racers use cold spark plugs and relatively rich mixtures. Spark plug heat range is also affected by coolant temperatures. A marginal heat range plug can induce pre-ignition because of an overheated head (high coolant temperature or inadequate flow). Also, a loose plug can't reject sufficient heat through its seat. A marginal heat range plug running lean (suddenly?) can cause pre-ignition.

Passenger car engine designers face a dilemma. Spark plugs must cold start at -40 degrees F. (which calls for hot plugs that resist fouling) yet be capable of extended WOT operation (which calls for cold plugs and maximum heat transfer to the cylinder head).

Here is how spark plug effectiveness or "pre-ignition" testing is done at WOT. Plug tip/gap temperature is measured with a blocking diode and a small battery supplying current through a milliamp meter to the spark plug terminal. The secondary voltage cannot come backwards up the wire because the large blocking diode prevents it.

As the spark plug tip heats up, it tends to ionize the gap and small levels of current will flow from the battery as indicated by the milliamp gauge. The engine is run under load and the gauges are closely watched. Through experience techni-cians learn what to expect from the gauges. Typically, very light activity, just a few milliamps of current, is observed across the spark plug gap. In instances where the spark plug tip/gap gets hot enough to act as an ignition source the mil-liamp current flow suddenly jumps off scale. When that hap-pens, instant power reduction is necessary to avoid major en-gine damage.

Back in the 80s, running engines that made half a horsepower per cubic inch, we could artificially and safely induce pre-ignition by using too hot of a plug and leaning out the mixture. We could determine how close we were by watching the gauges and had plenty of time (seconds) to power down, before any damage occurred.

With the Northstar making over 1 HP per cubic inch, at 6000 RPM, if the needles move from nominal, you just failed the engine. It's that quick! When you disassemble the engine, you'll find definite evidence of damage. It might be just melted spark plugs. But pre-ignition happens that quick in high output engines. There is very little time to react.

If cold starts and plug fouling are not a major worry run very cold spark plugs. A typical case of very cold plug application is a NASCAR type engine. Because the prime pre-ignition source is eliminated engine tuners can lean out the mixture (some) for maximum fuel economy and add a lot of spark advance for power and even risk some levels of detonation. Those plugs are terrible for cold starting and emissions and they would foul up while you were idling around town but for running at full throttle at 8000 RPM, they function fine. They eliminate a variable that could induce pre-ignition.

Engine developers run very cold spark plugs to avoid the risk of getting into pre-ignition during engine mapping of air/fuel and spark advance, Production engine calibration requires that we have much hotter spark plugs for cold startability and fouling resistance. To avoid pre-ignition we then compensate by making sure the fuel/air calibration is rich enough to keep the spark plugs cool at high loads and at high temperatures, so that they don't induce pre-ignition.

Consider the Northstar engine. If you do a full throttle 0-60 blast, the engine will likely run up to 6000 RPM at a 11.5:1 or 12:1 air fuel ratio. But under sustained load, at about 20 seconds, that air fuel ratio is richened up by the PCM to about 10:1. That is done to keep the spark plugs cool, as well as the piston crowns cool. That richness is necessary if you are running under continuous WOT load. A slight penalty in horsepower and fuel economy is the result. To get the maximum acceleration out of the engine, you can actually lean it out, but under full load, it has to go back to rich. Higher specific output engines are much more sensitive to pre-ignition damage because they are turning more RPM, they are generating a lot more heat and they are burning more fuel. Plugs have a tendency to get hot at that high specific output and reaction time to damage is minimal.

A carburetor set up for a drag racer would never work on a NASCAR or stock car engine because it would overheat and cause pre-ignition. But on the drag strip for 8 or 10 seconds, pre-ignition never has time to occur, so dragsters can get away with it. Differences in tuning for those two different types of engine applications are dramatic. That's why a drag race engine would make a poor choice for an aircraft engine.

MUDDY WATER
There is a situation called detonation induced pre-ignition. I don't want to sound like double speak here but it does happen. Imagine an engine under heavy load starting to detonate. Detonation continues for a long period of time. The plug heats up because the pressure spikes break down the protective boundary layer of gas surrounding the electrodes. The plug temperature suddenly starts to elevate unnaturally, to the point when it becomes a glow plug and induces pre-ignition. When the engine fails, I categorize that result as "detonation induced pre-ignition." There would not have been any danger of pre-ignition if the detonation had not occurred. Damage attributed to both detonation and pre-ignition would be evident.

Typically, that is what we see in passenger car engines. The engines will typically live for long periods of time under detonation. In fact, we actually run a lot of piston tests where we run the engine at the torque peak, induce moderate levels of detonation deliberately. Based on our resulting production design, the piston should pass those tests without any problem; the pistons should be robust enough to survive. If, however, under circumstances due to overheating or poor fuel, the spark plug tip overheats and induces pre-ignition, it's obviously not going to survive. If we see a failure, it probably is a detonation induced pre-ignition situation."


Nick

MBVert

Answered a half dozen times already, most of it in my first post. A/F and Timing. I'm not touching the ECU (remember I'm a "noob" no one would believe me anyway lol) but I would have it read out and the results publicly posted if it were me.

MBVert

I don't. What I drive is irrelevant and these digressions take away from the purpose of the thread.

MBVert

It's not my place to recommend any other tuner, I would just suggest that you like everyone do their homework before buying. You get what you pay for when it comes to tuning, you pay for the knowledge of the tuner and their experience. It's not a place to skimp. Seems like the Euro game is different in that more people don't openly post their negative experiences, so don't just count on the net.

MBVert

The pictures were deleted? Obviously someone knew enough to realize how good of a case they provided by themselves.

c32AMG-DTM

x SPY x's posts were deleted. Including the pictures. Except, the pics are still in every post that quoted x SPY x, so it's irrelevant I guess. Just weird that a mod deleted them - which is why I asked for clarification on that; we'll see.

AMGSC

I believe that to be a fact. That's why it's so confusing trying to get advice around here.

beauphus

ur not the only one. the politics at MBWORLD are tricky. IB protects its sponsors AT ALL COST regardless of their track record it seems. The "underworld" is the only place people voice their concerns, successes, failures etc. Quite a dog and pony show. Looks liek the real forum will have to continue to be the PM's, text messaging, and phone conversations about what is really going on in the MBWORLD...

cahiil55k

Or just voice your experience and opinion, good and bad, on yelp (http://www.yelp.com/biz/eurocharged-plainfield). I knew a restaurant owner who tried to have a poor review removed from yelp (allegedly posted by a disgruntled ex-worker) and yelp refused on all 4 attempts.

MBVert

For those of you wanting a play by play look back to post #168.The crater in the cylinder is caused by the top ring welding itself to the cylinder when the the piston parks at tdc. When the piston starts to move down it tears the ring and some cylinder away. Cast pistons sometime break the top ring land. Now there is a path for super hot gas to burn away the cylinder and piston like a cutting torch.That's what happened plain and simple.