Weistec Engineering M113K Supercharger Upgrade...Progress
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From: Oklahoma City
2015 AMG C63 S
MBWorld Fanatic!
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Posts: 2,841
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From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
I assume you've got cooling mods wrapped up in that $9000 number (?), but probably not a looped fuel rail... add another $1500, and the "conventional build" for +150HP is closer to $10,500...
I've probably missed other costs too, but this is the essence of how I think the Weistec kit will compete. It's already got a larger TB, new fuel rail, it's liquid cooled to control heat soak, includes their own tune, etc.... If you're already deep into mods ($$$) it will be hard to justify making this move, but for a guy with stock or near-stock E55 this could be a price-competitive option.
Some actual Weistec data would really be helpful right about now....all the speculation gets tiring after a while.
-G
I've probably missed other costs too, but this is the essence of how I think the Weistec kit will compete. It's already got a larger TB, new fuel rail, it's liquid cooled to control heat soak, includes their own tune, etc.... If you're already deep into mods ($$$) it will be hard to justify making this move, but for a guy with stock or near-stock E55 this could be a price-competitive option.
Some actual Weistec data would really be helpful right about now....all the speculation gets tiring after a while.
-G
i totally agree with your logic on why this kit would be a price comptitive option at +10K , thats why i cant understand the people that that think its going to be 6-8K
..... headers + pulley+ TB + tune cost that much alone so why would a all-in one package with upgraded cooling be cheaper.
Last edited by gaspam; Feb 4, 2012 at 11:01 PM.
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From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
7-20k? How do you go from comparing the price of upgraded turbo kit vs supercharger when you are adding in the price of a fully built engine and buying 2.8 heads and building them among tons of other stuff like tube turbo manifolds, downpipes, exhaust, intercoolers, labor etc, etc, etc, etc............... That is a terrible comparision.
We are not building our heads or buying different ones, or our block, not buying headers, exhaust, etc, etc.
If you are going to try and compare than at least compare correctly. The bad to the bone Tial 770 turbo kit with inlets and fueling for the B5 S4 is $7900, that would be more "comparable" to a supercharger and tuning we would get. All that other "supporting mods" stuff doesn't fit in this equation.
We are not building our heads or buying different ones, or our block, not buying headers, exhaust, etc, etc.
If you are going to try and compare than at least compare correctly. The bad to the bone Tial 770 turbo kit with inlets and fueling for the B5 S4 is $7900, that would be more "comparable" to a supercharger and tuning we would get. All that other "supporting mods" stuff doesn't fit in this equation.
case in point, audi b5 stage 3 ko4... is $8K from apr and b5 s4 market value is about 8K so value of kit to car is 100% and people still pay. and dont tell me about you buddy built one for $10 or you can get a vast kit for less because people still buy the apr kit and here is link for you "mr know it all about audis"
http://www.goapr.com/products/stage3_27tko4.html $7999
last time i checked, stage 3 apr kit is not a "fully built engine"... its not built at all, its just a turbo swap and fueling.
that is the $7k+ number, so stick to the facts mr know it all
$20K is for a tial 770 kit or GT kit + build and yes they have to be built and it STILL illustrates my point completely that cost of mods in relation to cost of car are irrelavant. people will pay a buttload in mods for a car so people cannot look at mods and say "its too expensive because the mod cost 50%" of the car...
tu entiendo ahora maricon????
Last edited by gaspam; Feb 4, 2012 at 10:51 PM.
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From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
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From: Jacksonville, FL
05 White Pano E55, Cadillac CTS-V
you are a toolbag seriously.... my response was to the guy was comparing s/c cost a % of car cost saying at +10K the s/c is 50% of e55 current market value and that is not worth it, so i gave him example of many kits that are more than 50% of cost of current market value of car and people still buy them...
case in point, audi b5 stage 3 ko4... is $8K from apr and b5 s4 market value is about 8K so value of kit to car is 100% and people still pay. and dont tell me about you buddy built one for $10 or you can get a vast kit for less because people still buy the apr kit and here is link for you "mr know it all about audis"
http://www.goapr.com/products/stage3_27tko4.html $7999
last time i checked, stage 3 apr kit is not a "fully built engine"... its not built at all, its just a turbo swap and fueling.
that is the $7k+ number, so stick to the facts mr know it all
$20K is for a tial 770 kit or GT kit + build and yes they have to be built and it STILL illustrates my point completely that cost of mods in relation to cost of car are irrelavant. people will pay a buttload in mods for a car so people cannot look at mods and say "its too expensive because the mod cost 50%" of the car...
tu entiendo ahora maricon????
case in point, audi b5 stage 3 ko4... is $8K from apr and b5 s4 market value is about 8K so value of kit to car is 100% and people still pay. and dont tell me about you buddy built one for $10 or you can get a vast kit for less because people still buy the apr kit and here is link for you "mr know it all about audis"
http://www.goapr.com/products/stage3_27tko4.html $7999
last time i checked, stage 3 apr kit is not a "fully built engine"... its not built at all, its just a turbo swap and fueling.
that is the $7k+ number, so stick to the facts mr know it all
$20K is for a tial 770 kit or GT kit + build and yes they have to be built and it STILL illustrates my point completely that cost of mods in relation to cost of car are irrelavant. people will pay a buttload in mods for a car so people cannot look at mods and say "its too expensive because the mod cost 50%" of the car...
tu entiendo ahora maricon????
Oh and yes I do know a thing or two about Audis, I have been around them for quite some time. And I am 100% hands on so my once stock 170 crank hp engine that makes 440 to all 4 wheels was fully built by yours truely along with work to several others. No shops needed.
Last edited by urbamworm; Feb 4, 2012 at 11:39 PM.
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From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
No insults needed, thanks. And logic needs to come in to play at some point, obviously when a car is so old and worth peanuts (B5 S4) you can't just make the performance parts free so there is only so low you can go when certain parts cost what they cost for any platform. That is why with your little comparison that the mods are close to or the same price as what the car is worth.
Oh and yes I do know a thing or two about Audis, I have been around them for quite some time. And I am 100% hands on so my once stock 170 crank hp engine that makes 440 to all 4 wheels was fully built by yours truely along with work to several others. No shops needed.
Oh and yes I do know a thing or two about Audis, I have been around them for quite some time. And I am 100% hands on so my once stock 170 crank hp engine that makes 440 to all 4 wheels was fully built by yours truely along with work to several others. No shops needed.
hell the ko4 kits dont even come with upgraded i/c cooling (add another $1200).
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From: seattle
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
If it was the cost of the car then there would not be any fast eagle talons, or subarus, or srt8s running 9s.
Look at the domestics. No one says it is to much for the cost of the car. In fact it is the opposite. Wait till the car does not cost that much so you can spend all the money on go fast. Like a few hear modding v12s and most of you modding the 55. If you dropped 80k on the car and there were no used engines out there cause they were new then blowing a motor and having to spend 40k on a new one would be out of the question.
I think that as said before it is just economies of scale. I just looked up the audi listed b5 s4 and production numbers in all models total around 36,000. E55/s around 7,500 kompressors and a little over 10k including the 210 chassis. Even if you add the small percentage of owners with other v8s that would be performance mod friendly. Not the right market. Say it was as height as 10% of the e55k cars for any product. That is 750 units. Barely enough to break even on development of a product and make a couple of bucks. Say at 8k you made 1k each after manufacturing cost. You still have retail space and development costs. Time on the phone and the forums. You just end up making wages. Could just work a 9-5 with no risk. Take that same 10% of 36,000 and same profit and there you go.
Look at the domestics. No one says it is to much for the cost of the car. In fact it is the opposite. Wait till the car does not cost that much so you can spend all the money on go fast. Like a few hear modding v12s and most of you modding the 55. If you dropped 80k on the car and there were no used engines out there cause they were new then blowing a motor and having to spend 40k on a new one would be out of the question.
I think that as said before it is just economies of scale. I just looked up the audi listed b5 s4 and production numbers in all models total around 36,000. E55/s around 7,500 kompressors and a little over 10k including the 210 chassis. Even if you add the small percentage of owners with other v8s that would be performance mod friendly. Not the right market. Say it was as height as 10% of the e55k cars for any product. That is 750 units. Barely enough to break even on development of a product and make a couple of bucks. Say at 8k you made 1k each after manufacturing cost. You still have retail space and development costs. Time on the phone and the forums. You just end up making wages. Could just work a 9-5 with no risk. Take that same 10% of 36,000 and same profit and there you go.
Last edited by whipplem104; Feb 5, 2012 at 12:20 AM.
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MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,841
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From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
If it was the cost of the car then there would not be any fast eagle talons, or subarus, or srt8s running 9s.
Look at the domestics. No one says it is to much for the cost of the car. In fact it is the opposite. Wait till the car does not cost that much so you can spend all the money on go fast. Like a few hear modding v12s and most of you modding the 55. If you dropped 80k on the car and there were no used engines out there cause they were new then blowing a motor and having to spend 40k on a new one would be out of the question.
I think that as said before it is just economies of scale. I just looked up the audi listed b5 s4 and production numbers in all models total around 36,000. E55/s around 7,500 kompressors and a little over 10k including the 210 chassis. Even if you add the small percentage of owners with other v8s that would be performance mod friendly. Not the right market. Say it was as height as 10% of the e55k cars for any product. That is 750 units. Barely enough to break even on development of a product and make a couple of bucks. Say at 8k you made 1k each after manufacturing cost. You still have retail space and development costs. Time on the phone and the forums. You just end up making wages. Could just work a 9-5 with no risk. Take that same 10% of 36,000 and same profit and there you go.
Look at the domestics. No one says it is to much for the cost of the car. In fact it is the opposite. Wait till the car does not cost that much so you can spend all the money on go fast. Like a few hear modding v12s and most of you modding the 55. If you dropped 80k on the car and there were no used engines out there cause they were new then blowing a motor and having to spend 40k on a new one would be out of the question.
I think that as said before it is just economies of scale. I just looked up the audi listed b5 s4 and production numbers in all models total around 36,000. E55/s around 7,500 kompressors and a little over 10k including the 210 chassis. Even if you add the small percentage of owners with other v8s that would be performance mod friendly. Not the right market. Say it was as height as 10% of the e55k cars for any product. That is 750 units. Barely enough to break even on development of a product and make a couple of bucks. Say at 8k you made 1k each after manufacturing cost. You still have retail space and development costs. Time on the phone and the forums. You just end up making wages. Could just work a 9-5 with no risk. Take that same 10% of 36,000 and same profit and there you go.
glad someone gets it
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From: NYC/FT Lauderdale
W220 M113K
we just need them to release this thing already lol im starting to price e63s for their other blower lol
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From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
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From: Texas
e55 w/LET TUNE Drinks: vodka STRAIGHT Wheels: 19" HRE 547r Mods:FF headers ASP Pulley
actually i did not include cooling mods on the conv bolt on build so add another $500-$1000 so prob more like $10K now for conv bolt on build to get to +100-150hp over stock.
i totally agree with your logic on why this kit would be a price comptitive option at +10K , thats why i cant understand the people that that think its going to be 6-8K ..... headers + pulley+ TB + tune cost that much alone so why would a all-in one package with upgraded cooling be cheaper.
i totally agree with your logic on why this kit would be a price comptitive option at +10K , thats why i cant understand the people that that think its going to be 6-8K
..... headers + pulley+ TB + tune cost that much alone so why would a all-in one package with upgraded cooling be cheaper.ok ill play again
headers 2k
tune 800 TOPS!!
pulley $650
TB $1200
fuel rail $350
labor at most $800
H/E $500
pump $150
injectors $550
where are you getting 10k from?
Ill sell you theeddie stage 5 right now for 7500 out the door installed, i dont even have TB or injectors and my car will trap 120+ without breaking a sweat
Last edited by theeddie; Feb 5, 2012 at 02:27 AM.
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Posts: 1,978
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From: NYC/FT Lauderdale
W220 M113K
ok ill play again
headers 2k
tune 800 TOPS!!
pulley $650
TB $1200
fuel rail $350
labor at most $800
H/E $500
pump $150
injectors $550
where are you getting 10k from?
Ill sell you theeddie stage 5 right now for 7500 out the door installed, i dont even have TB or injectors and my car will trap 120+ without breaking a sweat
headers 2k
tune 800 TOPS!!
pulley $650
TB $1200
fuel rail $350
labor at most $800
H/E $500
pump $150
injectors $550
where are you getting 10k from?
Ill sell you theeddie stage 5 right now for 7500 out the door installed, i dont even have TB or injectors and my car will trap 120+ without breaking a sweat
Super Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 756
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From: Texas
e55 w/LET TUNE Drinks: vodka STRAIGHT Wheels: 19" HRE 547r Mods:FF headers ASP Pulley
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,841
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From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
ok ill play again
headers 2k
tune 800 TOPS!!
pulley $650
TB $1200
fuel rail $350
labor at most $800
H/E $500
pump $150
injectors $550
where are you getting 10k from?
Ill sell you theeddie stage 5 right now for 7500 out the door installed, i dont even have TB or injectors and my car will trap 120+ without breaking a sweat
headers 2k
tune 800 TOPS!!
pulley $650
TB $1200
fuel rail $350
labor at most $800
H/E $500
pump $150
injectors $550
where are you getting 10k from?
Ill sell you theeddie stage 5 right now for 7500 out the door installed, i dont even have TB or injectors and my car will trap 120+ without breaking a sweat
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
and tune $600 tops? ok sure lol, even though EC is $819 and OE tuning is $1049.... what kinda mickey mouse tune you talking about?
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
http://oetuning.com/index.php/merced...mg-5-5-v8.html
and labor $800 ? lol please show me a quote from a shop that will install long tube headers (weld in pipe in place of cats that gotta go) pulley, H/E , pump , TB and injectors for $800.... headers alone will cost you $800 install + $150 for the cat removal and welding
Last edited by gaspam; Feb 5, 2012 at 02:53 AM.
Super Member
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Posts: 756
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From: Texas
e55 w/LET TUNE Drinks: vodka STRAIGHT Wheels: 19" HRE 547r Mods:FF headers ASP Pulley
here ya go... $8100 package deal from one of the cheaper sources (you go to evosport its gonna be a lot more as well as if you buy the components individually)
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
and tune $600 tops? ok sure lol, even though EC is $819 and OE tuning is $1049.... what kinda mickey mouse tune you talking about?
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
http://oetuning.com/index.php/merced...mg-5-5-v8.html
and labor $800 ? lol please show me a quote from a shop that will install long tube headers (weld in pipe in place of cats that gotta go) pulley, H/E , pump , TB and injectors for $800.... headers alone will cost you $800 install + $150 for the cat removal and welding
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
and tune $600 tops? ok sure lol, even though EC is $819 and OE tuning is $1049.... what kinda mickey mouse tune you talking about?
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
http://oetuning.com/index.php/merced...mg-5-5-v8.html
and labor $800 ? lol please show me a quote from a shop that will install long tube headers (weld in pipe in place of cats that gotta go) pulley, H/E , pump , TB and injectors for $800.... headers alone will cost you $800 install + $150 for the cat removal and welding
i had my headers installed for $500, pulley $100, HE did myself but couldnt be more then $200 and if you cant install a TB on this car you have bigger issues
and buy my stage 5 for $7500 im serious I would get it done and still make a nice chunk of change. But i dont own a shop no overhead. my point is anyone can do this you just have to do your research and $10k for a blower upgrade yah no .
Last edited by theeddie; Feb 5, 2012 at 03:01 AM.
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From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
pulley+ tune 1854.99
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
long tubes 2529.95
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
h/e 597.99
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
injectors 934.99
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
TB 2198.85
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
dyno tune to scale injectors + 250
total before install 8366.77
install 1500
total 9866.77
this is new market cost... we are not talking about buying used parts in the classified because we are not talking about a used weistec blower now are we?
they ya go playa
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
long tubes 2529.95
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
h/e 597.99
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
injectors 934.99
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
TB 2198.85
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
dyno tune to scale injectors + 250
total before install 8366.77
install 1500
total 9866.77
this is new market cost... we are not talking about buying used parts in the classified because we are not talking about a used weistec blower now are we?
they ya go playa
Super Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 756
Likes: 3
From: Texas
e55 w/LET TUNE Drinks: vodka STRAIGHT Wheels: 19" HRE 547r Mods:FF headers ASP Pulley
pulley+ tune 1854.99
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
long tubes 2529.95
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
h/e 597.99
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
injectors 934.99
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
TB 2198.85
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
dyno tune to scale injectors + 250
total before install 8366.77
install 1500
total 9866.77
this is new market cost... we are not talking about buying used parts in the classified because we are not talking about a used weistec blower now are we?
they ya go playa
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
long tubes 2529.95
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
h/e 597.99
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
injectors 934.99
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
TB 2198.85
http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php...mart&Itemid=99
dyno tune to scale injectors + 250
total before install 8366.77
install 1500
total 9866.77
this is new market cost... we are not talking about buying used parts in the classified because we are not talking about a used weistec blower now are we?
they ya go playa
you truly have no idea do you. I'm not going to do your research for you.
all those parts can be had for much less NEW. i bought everything for my car NEW.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,841
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From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
i said $800 for a tune
i had my headers installed for $500, pulley $100, HE did myself but couldnt be more then $200 and if you cant install a TB on this car you have bigger issues
and buy my stage 5 for $7500 im serious I would get it done and still make a nice chunk of change. But i dont own a shop no overhead. my point is anyone can do this you just have to do your research and $10k for a blower upgrade yah no .
i had my headers installed for $500, pulley $100, HE did myself but couldnt be more then $200 and if you cant install a TB on this car you have bigger issues
and buy my stage 5 for $7500 im serious I would get it done and still make a nice chunk of change. But i dont own a shop no overhead. my point is anyone can do this you just have to do your research and $10k for a blower upgrade yah no .
and 9/10 people that get a new blower arent gonna install it themselves so if you want to compare blower cost to sum of bolt ons then you have to included shop install cost to make it apples to apples
are you gonna start making stupid comparos that you can get free parts for bj's behind the building and use that as your cost analysis when not everyone is will to go that route?
compare the cost to take a stock e55 to shop and add the sum of all bolt ons and its gonna be close to 10K.... same guy takes car to shop and just adds blower and done with it for same power is an attactive option, and thats the point that eludes you
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,841
Likes: 202
From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
and again, we are not talking about discounts and special deals... we are talking about instant market retail of bolt ons to get to supposed power levels of weistec blower.... not waiting months for the next group buy to pop up
Super Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 756
Likes: 3
From: Texas
e55 w/LET TUNE Drinks: vodka STRAIGHT Wheels: 19" HRE 547r Mods:FF headers ASP Pulley
trust me, i know! i was in on the ec group buy for long tubes for $1699 and install was over $1000 at reputable shop
and again, we are not talking about discounts and special deals... we are talking about instant market retail of bolt ons to get to supposed power levels of weistec blower.... not waiting months for the next group buy to pop up
and again, we are not talking about discounts and special deals... we are talking about instant market retail of bolt ons to get to supposed power levels of weistec blower.... not waiting months for the next group buy to pop up
mine charged me $450 plus an extra $120 for the extra welding etc
and they are a reputable shop been in business for 6+ years
in house dyno etc. cant post name because the rules
I guess you just live in another part of the country which is why you paid more.
you can buy very nice headers new from a company that's not on this site for $2k
eurcharged use to have the headers for $2k on the website but i guess they decided to ask for more, I've noticed they do a %12 increase on everything every year
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,841
Likes: 202
From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
I'm sorry your shop charged you 12 hours of labor. that's more then a motor pull fyi
mine charged me $450 plus an extra $120 for the extra welding etc
and they are a reputable shop been in business for 6+ years
in house dyno etc. cant post name because the rules
I guess you just live in another part of the country which is why you paid more.
you can buy very nice headers new from a company that's not on this site for $2k
eurcharged use to have the headers for $2k on the website but i guess they decided to ask for more, I've noticed they do a %12 increase on everything every year
mine charged me $450 plus an extra $120 for the extra welding etc
and they are a reputable shop been in business for 6+ years
in house dyno etc. cant post name because the rules
I guess you just live in another part of the country which is why you paid more.
you can buy very nice headers new from a company that's not on this site for $2k
eurcharged use to have the headers for $2k on the website but i guess they decided to ask for more, I've noticed they do a %12 increase on everything every year
Newbie
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
From: Kingston, Pa
2006 E55 Amg
Wow look at this pissing contest going on in here. Did we ever get a real price estimate?
5K - I'll buy right now
8500 - Meh.. I'll think about it
10K - You're out of your god damn mind
A Whipple 2.3L Twin Screw is 2200 dollars, Add a few hundred for a snout, a new machined intake manifold another 500-1K and you get around 4K unless i'm missing something. 5K-6K would make this upgrade worthwhile, 8500 is just them ripping us off and 10K is an absolute joke. This car isn't in production anymore so why would you expect me to spend THAT MUCH on an upgrade for it?
5K - I'll buy right now
8500 - Meh.. I'll think about it
10K - You're out of your god damn mind
A Whipple 2.3L Twin Screw is 2200 dollars, Add a few hundred for a snout, a new machined intake manifold another 500-1K and you get around 4K unless i'm missing something. 5K-6K would make this upgrade worthwhile, 8500 is just them ripping us off and 10K is an absolute joke. This car isn't in production anymore so why would you expect me to spend THAT MUCH on an upgrade for it?
Last edited by BlackTTC6; Feb 5, 2012 at 10:27 AM.
