another twin turbo e55 amg is born at BIP
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,909
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From: San Diego
F-250
I just did a bunch of goolging, and the most common reason for a break up is a boost leak. The advice: Pressure check the entire system including Air to Air inter-cooler. Some of the other forums I read said it is very, very common to find leaks you knew you didn't have.. until you found them. Good luck!! I still have HIGH HOPES!
Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 108
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C63 AMG, E55 AMG
Craig, you said you made a pull on 12lb springs a couple pages ago with no issues brotha. Id start by looking into the reasons why the 17lb springs are causing heartache. If the springs are opening the actuator early you will lose boost down the wastegate. Are the turbos running internal or external waste gate diaphragms? Internal wastegates will overpower the actuator springs and the power curve will look like yours at high rpm. Especially with cars clocking 500+hp.. A good quality bigger external waste gate will help control boost levels and level out the power curve, it will also ensure you don't overload the actuator springs. the boost controller works in as much the same way by controlling the amount of vaccum the wastegate sees. But I suspect hardware failure with the 17lb springs. The way it's climbing you should be seeing 650+ whp at 6500rpm. What does the exhaust manifolds look like on each side? There may also be turbulence at high rpm? I got my fingers crossed brother. Your almost there, hang in!
Last edited by RAWE55; Jul 29, 2014 at 03:53 AM.
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From: Orlando
1967 Pro Touring turbo LSX Camaro
Swap the heads for a pair with some nice port and polish work done. You'll pick up power everywhere while dropping backpressure simultaneously. That's a band-aid way to get some more power out of a MAP sensor with a fixed range, but it's a win/win band-aid (except for the $$)
Good luck with the breaking up at RPM issue though.. I know that's frustrating.
It's just a car though, keep at it and don't let it beat you dude.
Good luck with the breaking up at RPM issue though.. I know that's frustrating.
It's just a car though, keep at it and don't let it beat you dude.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,659
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From: Atlanta
2006 E55 AMG
This is the latest findings, damaging news to say the least.
The problem now is the 38mm waste gates are too small because it is causing high egts, building up immense cylinder pressure and spark blow out at higher than 11lbs. Anything over 11lbs and it rears its head.
We are talking to IPS today to send these back and get bigger units. We have not asked them for anything, so I feel they need to step up and provide us with 44mm or 46mm waste gates.
That means the car has to come off the dyno, pull the turbos off, pull the down pipes off and remove the puny 38mm critters. New down pipes have to be made by BIP to fit the bigger waste gates.
I sure hope IPS steps up and provides these things.
The problem now is the 38mm waste gates are too small because it is causing high egts, building up immense cylinder pressure and spark blow out at higher than 11lbs. Anything over 11lbs and it rears its head.
We are talking to IPS today to send these back and get bigger units. We have not asked them for anything, so I feel they need to step up and provide us with 44mm or 46mm waste gates.
That means the car has to come off the dyno, pull the turbos off, pull the down pipes off and remove the puny 38mm critters. New down pipes have to be made by BIP to fit the bigger waste gates.
I sure hope IPS steps up and provides these things.
Last edited by chawkins2001; Jul 29, 2014 at 08:17 AM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,659
Likes: 67
From: Atlanta
2006 E55 AMG
Craig, you said you made a pull on 12lb springs a couple pages ago with no issues brotha. Id start by looking into the reasons why the 17lb springs are causing heartache. If the springs are opening the actuator early you will lose boost down the wastegate. Are the turbos running internal or external waste gate diaphragms? Internal wastegates will overpower the actuator springs and the power curve will look like yours at high rpm. Especially with cars clocking 500+hp.. A good quality bigger external waste gate will help control boost levels and level out the power curve, it will also ensure you don't overload the actuator springs. the boost controller works in as much the same way by controlling the amount of vaccum the wastegate sees. But I suspect hardware failure with the 17lb springs. The way it's climbing you should be seeing 650+ whp at 6500rpm. What does the exhaust manifolds look like on each side? There may also be turbulence at high rpm? I got my fingers crossed brother. Your almost there, hang in!
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Super Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 659
Likes: 25
From: SE MI
2005 Mercedes E55 AMG
This is the latest findings, damaging news to say the least.
The problem now is the 38mm waste gates are too small because it is causing high egts, building up immense cylinder pressure and spark blow out at higher than 11lbs. Anything over 11lbs and it rears its head.
We are talking to IPS today to send these back and get bigger units. We have not asked them for anything, so I feel they need to step up and provide us with 44mm or 46mm waste gates.
That means the car has to come off the dyno, pull the turbos off, pull the down pipes off and remove the puny 38mm critters. New down pipes have to be made by BIP to fit the bigger waste gates.
I sure hope IPS steps up and provides these things.
The problem now is the 38mm waste gates are too small because it is causing high egts, building up immense cylinder pressure and spark blow out at higher than 11lbs. Anything over 11lbs and it rears its head.
We are talking to IPS today to send these back and get bigger units. We have not asked them for anything, so I feel they need to step up and provide us with 44mm or 46mm waste gates.
That means the car has to come off the dyno, pull the turbos off, pull the down pipes off and remove the puny 38mm critters. New down pipes have to be made by BIP to fit the bigger waste gates.
I sure hope IPS steps up and provides these things.
Nevertheless, this is a MAP car. Even boost leaks or reversion through one of the turbos would not cause a breakup because the sensor is reading the actual air within the manifold/intake ports.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 13,489
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haters crazy
I've held a single 38mm to 600whp... If anything the lower the boost, the more control those gates have to do because you're flowing more air through the turbo and less air through the gates at higher pressures. The general rule is small gates for high boost control, big gates for low boost control. Are the two banks operating independently of one another? As in, one exhaust manifold to one gate to one turbo. If so, one bank could be malfunctioning and it would erratic pressures.
Nevertheless, this is a MAP car. Even boost leaks or reversion through one of the turbos would not cause a breakup because the sensor is reading the actual air within the manifold/intake ports.
Nevertheless, this is a MAP car. Even boost leaks or reversion through one of the turbos would not cause a breakup because the sensor is reading the actual air within the manifold/intake ports.
Super Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 659
Likes: 25
From: SE MI
2005 Mercedes E55 AMG
Do you guys have a thermal gauge at the shop? If so, check the temps on each exhaust manifold during a pull and see if they vary. Also check temps on the wastegate discharge tubes both at the 12psi, consistent level and the 17psi, erratic level.
Also, if available weld a bung on each and set up a pressure gauge to read the actual backpressure. If the pressure gauge is not heat rated, run the line through a bin of water to try and cool the air before it hits the gauge. Your readings won't be true, but they will be comparable from one side to the other
Also, if available weld a bung on each and set up a pressure gauge to read the actual backpressure. If the pressure gauge is not heat rated, run the line through a bin of water to try and cool the air before it hits the gauge. Your readings won't be true, but they will be comparable from one side to the other
Super Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 837
Likes: 25
From: seattle
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
This is the latest findings, damaging news to say the least.
The problem now is the 38mm waste gates are too small because it is causing high egts, building up immense cylinder pressure and spark blow out at higher than 11lbs. Anything over 11lbs and it rears its head.
We are talking to IPS today to send these back and get bigger units. We have not asked them for anything, so I feel they need to step up and provide us with 44mm or 46mm waste gates.
That means the car has to come off the dyno, pull the turbos off, pull the down pipes off and remove the puny 38mm critters. New down pipes have to be made by BIP to fit the bigger waste gates.
I sure hope IPS steps up and provides these things.
The problem now is the 38mm waste gates are too small because it is causing high egts, building up immense cylinder pressure and spark blow out at higher than 11lbs. Anything over 11lbs and it rears its head.
We are talking to IPS today to send these back and get bigger units. We have not asked them for anything, so I feel they need to step up and provide us with 44mm or 46mm waste gates.
That means the car has to come off the dyno, pull the turbos off, pull the down pipes off and remove the puny 38mm critters. New down pipes have to be made by BIP to fit the bigger waste gates.
I sure hope IPS steps up and provides these things.
You should put some ports in to check exhaust back pressure regardless.
Are you gapping the plugs?
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 472
Likes: 5
From: Gainesville, FL: In a garage or in a bar, or a garage with a bar in it.
2005 E55, 2011 Honda Push Mower (21 inch deck bishes)
Wastegate placement can affect boost creep a ton as well.
Just spitballing here man. I've been in your shoes. I ran a 76mm wheel in my truck and a 44mm wastegate worked like a champ. Stepped up to an 80mm wheel and it crept like a b*tch. I had my gate welded up in a decent configuration though, so I knew I had just maxed the gate. Stepped up to a 52mm and life was good up to 25 pounds (of course, then the motor went lol!). Where are yours on this chart?
Just spitballing here man. I've been in your shoes. I ran a 76mm wheel in my truck and a 44mm wastegate worked like a champ. Stepped up to an 80mm wheel and it crept like a b*tch. I had my gate welded up in a decent configuration though, so I knew I had just maxed the gate. Stepped up to a 52mm and life was good up to 25 pounds (of course, then the motor went lol!). Where are yours on this chart?
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 472
Likes: 5
From: Gainesville, FL: In a garage or in a bar, or a garage with a bar in it.
2005 E55, 2011 Honda Push Mower (21 inch deck bishes)
Need to see how angles are INTO the wastegate off the headers to be honest. Again, it may be nothing, but I'm just trying to look for what I can.
Super Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 837
Likes: 25
From: seattle
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
I would start there. I think you are hitting the choke on the stock exhaust manifolds. Look up restrictors and air going supersonic. The problem is that once you reach the flow limitations of the cfm no more air can go through. You will end up with very high back pressure in the exhaust. Most likely you would see a 10-15 psi increase almost instantly. Right after the choke you will see a pressure drop. I think you said you were able to run through at 11 psi. Try 12 psi and then 13 psi, etc. What you should see is that at some point you hit the choke at a higher rpm. Then when you increase boost and therefore flow you will hit the choke at an earlier rpm. So according to your dyno you are hitting at 4500 rpm at 17lbs. At 15lbs or 14 lbs you would hit a little higher in the rpm range. At 13 even higher. If it does not change at all then it is a different problem but I am betting it will.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,659
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From: Atlanta
2006 E55 AMG
that does make sense brotha, the only thing I am scratching my head about on your post is that the TT CLS in Jersey also ran the stock manifolds. He was also running 44mm waste gates.
tomorrow we are putting a bung in the exhaust and measuring back pressure. We are also stepping the spring down to a 8lber, and going to increase boost with the controller.
44mm waste gates are on there way. I don't know how much difference going from a 13lb spring to a 8lb spring will make and manipulating boost via the controller.
tomorrow we are putting a bung in the exhaust and measuring back pressure. We are also stepping the spring down to a 8lber, and going to increase boost with the controller.
44mm waste gates are on there way. I don't know how much difference going from a 13lb spring to a 8lb spring will make and manipulating boost via the controller.
