did I miss that? That the tensioners were new at the beginning of one 12k mile experiment of unplugging the solenoid? I don't have fb

edit: so these were new guides as per your updated above

what is the average life of those chain guides in "normal" use ?

 

They’re swapping bigger turbos and an intake. So the engine was coming apart after break in. That’s why they decided to experiment with disconnecting the solenoid. They knew the engine had to come apart again. It was a perfect opportunity to run some tests.

I think killing the messenger here isn’t productive, and to be honest they (a2d) appear pretty competent. I guess we’ll just have to wait until someone here who has done the mod for 12k to pull their engine or top end apart. Bet the oil filter had some guide material in it. You guys may want to dissect them after oil changes….

Here’s one of their (a2d’s) products
https://modalwork.com/products/m157-...hHut_bf7bMJxvv

 

who is killing the messenger?

we are allowed to evaluate all data and ask questions yes? Or does it change based on our position? A2d wants to know more about this as do we, and being the highly competent people that I'm sure they are - they welcome a discourse on this ongoing yes?

they are one engine with one solenoid unplugged; I look forward to more engines revealing their wear and tear inspections

yes, several threads by @Cifdig on the a2d products, they are in the sticky:

https://mbworld.org/forums/w212-amg/...ml#post9024167

A handful of guys have the intake on this forum or are installing it soon. They seem like competent intake builders no question.

cheers

 

Evaluating data is fine, when we start focusing on grammar as a prerequisite for engineering competency, that’s what I mean by trying to kill the messenger. (I’m generalizing responses to a few posts, not necessarily yours btw)


In the end they’ll be the best source of any questions we may have, since they actually ran the test.
Thats why I mentioned asking them directly.


Good Luck and Over and Out for tonight folks.

 

This would be an interesting discours if it was not misguided by FB types.

"MOD high pressure is wasting pump chain guide".

> Seriously :

-- WHO REMOVES his engine out and takes it apart every oil change ??

-- WHAT APPLICATION are we talking about here: driving at 2500R. or racing at 6500R.??

-- WHAT ABOUT the other 3x chain guides: /worst /ok /better ??

-- WHO REPLACES tensioner at 12K intervals ???

-- Is this part s known defective design for high Rpm ??

-- I can not conclude anything from looking at a worned plastic guide besides I agree it does look poor.

I don't think an engine intake company is worried about chain guide as much as vaporized oil jacketing intake valves near their intake.
They should build an effective PCV oil separator to keep oil away from their intakes.


Personally I don't believe normal driving damages engines the way redline extreme output does.
It's entirely normal to rebuild racing engines. Everything goes, it's all good business for max output.

Now let's remember that above 3500Rpm oil pump is set to full volume regardless of MOD.

I can readily go along "a2d Intake GMBH" customers to enjoy stock oil setup as they please. So they can directly question suppliers for better grade when their stock plastic tensioners fail.

REDLINE MOD-0 PRESSURE = MOD-1.
There's no point in disabling pump solenoid for racing when the ECU already does that above 3500R

There is a use case for better oil specs but that's not "MB Approved" to save-gas.

Solenoid MOD is as described. If your engine bottom Rpm is responsive and your tranny shifts seamless then don't change a thing. Let's make this more simple the other way... if your tranny shifts seemlessly that means your engine is well controlled.

MOD-X is not about oil pressure it's about disabling stock spongy hesitation around 1750R.
Poor powertrain control is caused by bad cam timings and cured by effective cam positioning.

SOL-MOD is clearly not useful to prevent wear in full bore racing. ECU disables solenoid at 3.5kR


> You know it's peculiar when an oil pump specialist has nothing to say about :

-- pump chain chewing guide...

-- anything that can be sayed about pump latteral freeplay...

-- Any data about what force a pump tensioner shaft under 60Psi Max puts on the surface of tensioner??


> STOCK VS. EXPERIMENTAL MODS...
Are on a different path
ALL MOD void warranties
More power > more wear > more repairs!
Good stuff for free is not for scarry cats.

 

MY question would be, is the companies assumption that these vehicles will have this wear after the vehicle has 12k miles about 3500 rpm....meaning after 30k miles but a third being in high rpm. If oil pressure is an issue, would it not be regardless of the mod. Considering a full teardown, was a new timing chain installed (and therefore all/every sprockets and gears that touch the chain), and was it an mb chain? Was the finish/polish of the chain correct? Is the tensioner the same part number as stock? Were the guides all replaced with original mb parts and were they the same part numbers and batch numbers...? Is the car otherwise completely stuck with no upgrades, no, well then how are those variables accounted for in the assumption. Basically, are all variable being considered in the assumption that oil pressure is the cause? I would need a much better breakdown of info to make a conclusion. Would a stock car have this issue or is it really a case of lots of parts touched and assumptions made but are in no way part of a reliable experiment. One thing we can all agree on is that a five weight starting number for the oil is the same regardless of the final weight of oil, and that 50weight final viscosity is not as volatile as 40 weight (the old weight used by owners of cars with the majority of any engine issues) so should have better AVERAGE performance, especially with some mileage/use.

 

@CaliBenzDriver ?

 

here is the link to original thread in instagram, yesterday i just saw the pic in FB that's why i just attached it

 

This is absolutely something I will be mindful of. However it is one data point and there could be many other factors involved and if so how were they ruled out?
For me then the answer is to leave the engine as designed for now and drive 'properly', whatever that means.

Might be worth seeing if Tasos has seen this.

 

there could be several factors this to happen so i can't say anything

I think Tasos was against disabling the solenoid or im wrong but in the meantime he had an video that shows how solenoid is failing

 

Yep, I remember seeing the video. I'll have a look again at some stage.

 

I can tell you that if I were to present the summary of my last week's work in that way, I would be grilled by my colleagues.

There have been a lot of major engineering issues in several areas (Space Shuttle, for a typical example) just because of the wrong vocabulary and understanding what word A means to you, and what it means to me.

The photo speaks volumes with the qualified context, but w/o the correct context, it is just a photo. Your posts have been very technically focused and well presented. That would be the minimum I would have expected from a2d as well.

 

I agree to an extent, but do you keep the same energy towards CaliBenzDriver?

 

Privately, YES.

Whatever I know about MB diagnosis and repair, I learned from S-Prihadi, CaliBenzDriver's encouragement, as well as participating in/reading a lot of posts in several forums. When I joined MBWorld, I had no clue about OBD2 scanners, what a CAN bus was, or had not done automotive work for at least 10 years. I woke up because of their passion for this forum; otherwise, I would not be around at all.

 

I remain unconvinced that we have any evidence that unplugged solenoid solved anything other than "feel at the seat of the pants" when driving.

i totally get and respect those that feel that
it had been "beyond proven" the benefits. You're welcome to that opinion. Especially the TSB on the m274 which is frequently brought up. Yet no one has been able to find the m157 TSB for a solenoid fail soft code. Still waiting...

if I missed actual empiric data - please link me/us.

also I appreciate @A2D_AMG posting one data point (one vehicle with one solenoid unplugged) and it absolutely is going to add to any actual physical data we can collect (beyond theory and speculation/extrapolation). It is the only engine teardown we have, and to @crconsulting 's point, there aren't even any before and after bore scopes to support some of the initial benefits of unplugging.

the recurrent recommendation to all from the beginning was "unplug at your own peril" and make the decision for yourself.

also, repeating the same thing over and over again without any new evidence does not make it more valid. Accumulation of supportive data would tend to convince me (and the generally accepted rigors of scientific testing) that something is trending towards validity.

i think both sides can co exist in the same digital-social-sphere here and continue healthy debate without breaking decorum.

oh, and I am unplugged, tuned (ecu/tcu/bb intakes/100 octane)

 

Engine HEAT is an absolutely essential topic:
What are the evidences of lower PISTONS temp ?

-- Pistons heat can not be measured directly by any sensor thus hard to track with numbers. (Lambdas track temp of combustion gases).

-- Piston heat may only be approximated as being above or below a ballpark range where oil begin to vaporize and above which it burns into solid deposits: "Oil cleans when it stops burning".

-- Piston heat affects many factors such as performance, oil, coolant as detailed below. It can not be ignored because it causes unbalanced contributions, a terminal engine condition.

-- No1: RADIATOR FAN STOPPED = Victory!!
when heat is circulated out while car is in motion, it is not accumulated in high levels.

Piston heat transfer is a slow process through tiny squirters into oil sump into pump through heat exchanger into coolant pumped into radiator through lazy Tstat opening. There's nothing quick about this!

-- Why does rad FAN keeps running non-stop in winter... (piston heat) ??
Fanning engine coolant has zero effect to lower the source of coolant heat. Once you realize that you can go after piston heat.

--- VICTORY FLAG...
- When you drive in hot summer weather (90F) with Fan:OFF you know something unbelievably good has happened.
- That's the experimental proof that validates a blind theory without number. A tall order!


-- MOD-1 vs. MOD-X ...
My fan started to quit and the phasers starter to improve throttle when I was doctoring viscosity with "booster shots" of 15w-50.
The study outcome is nothing is enabled by MOD-1: same piston heat burns more oil.
Effective squirting is tied to pressure thats tied to viscosity. There's a threshold between viscosity and cooling effectiveness.
Engine needs as much heat removal as its producing heat.
The issue with thin oil is it only spays at higher rpm when heat already accumulated. That extreme heat vaporizes any oil including best PAO/Esters.


***WHILE STOPPED***
The result of lower pistons heat is the elimination of stored heat that cause HEATSOAKS after engine off.

-- HL fans stop: The LED fan stop with IGN:Off and never spin in the morning when cold.

-- Hissing fuel rail relief: quit hissing! The fyel rail gets geatsialed first class. That pressure has to escape back into tank (ring seal damage). Thank God most injectors tolerate the extreme heat soak pressure until they leak into cylinders !!!

-- Coolant not venting: no loss /no smell

-- CPS Leakers: not breached


***WHILE DRIVING***
Heat from pistons should be closely linked to oil temp...
ie. oil viscosity
ie. oil pressure
ie. camshafts mapped PWM
ie. precise cam positioning
ie. intake cam timing
ie. A/F mixture!
ie. precise throttle response
ie. precise shifts adaptations
This is what causes poor gear selection + banging shifts. (delayed shifts are CAN-C).

Blow-by pressure is caused by stuck rings that's burned oil on sizzling dry pistons.
Given sprayed off pistons heat :
Wet rings clean up to seal blow-by.
All Cyl. contribution balances
All Cyl. strong torque output
no vibration under load!
brake booster register vac-pump delta.

 

man, I hope its not just me, but you are extremely hard to follow. I have not read the 1600 posts in this thread to keep track of your acronyms.

Can you clarify what you mean by the section above? We already agree that unplugging solenoid causes oil temp to go up. You are saying increased oil temp is better for cam timing, A/F mixture and shift adaptations? Not following that logic.

 

It's not 1600 but nearly 4000 posts journey in this thread


> ACRONYMS...
PWM pulsed controlled VVT solenoids from stored mapped data.

A/F : Air/Fuel mixture managed with fuel trims by ECU/PCM


> OIL TEMPS...
You are confused why "higher oil temps are better".

It does sound counter intuitive.
What you don't want is: cool oil and hot coolant.

"Hotter oil" is only better to the extend it is removing more piston heat.

When viscosity is too low, pistons are not sprayed, oil remains colder than coolant: bad!
This is what keeps big FAN spinning in winter and vaporizes oil onto hot intake valves.


> RESULT ORIENTED...
You noticed the keyword experimental:
what matters is what you decide to experiment with:

-1- Read the thread to learn what may be done to disable powertrain issues.

-2- Recognize the issues impacting your engine & tranny...

-3- Plan actions responsibly.


+++ PREVENTABLE FAILURES....
Some ppl can connect-dots some damn stock torpedoes.
HEAT can be translated by heatsoak failures:
Ignition coils
Cam sensors
Fuel Injectors

Stock MISFIRES are NOT coils/injectors :
cyl. bores damages
rings blow-by
unbalanced cyl. timings

-- Repetition is called progress along discovery of connected topics.
Oil solenoid enables 5W-50 effective spraying.

-- The opposite of progress is to be stuck with hissing heatsoaks and "Fan:ON".

All good personal choices.

 

Can you answer my question? You said that hotter oil results in "precise cam positioning" "intake cam timing" and many other things. Can you back those up with something more scientific than a lecture filled with random words?

 

I have done my share discovering multiple fixes to built-in stock issues.

Rational evidence basis:
when my engine fan stays off
when my garage is not steamed up
when my throttle makes a light chassis
when my transmission shifts seemlessly
when my coolant system does not leak
when my oil is not disapearing
when my intake valves stay clean
Then my rational expectations are meet.

I need HARD RESULTS, not a dataset.


You have SCIENTIFIC STANDARDS, very well:
You should roll-up your sleeves
pick your favorite goals
define your targets
Make real progress
Hands-on with your standards.

I will gladly help support your quest.
I always help to provide solutions.

Let me know how YOU want to proceed....
There are so many open opportunities to contribute your brain share.

Ealier on I wrote it should be easier to measure final results than intermediate steps.

 

Here is a clear overview presentation that's well organized in couple sections.

He quickly goes over effects of stock oiling on top heads damages.
Reviewer has noticed quicker pickups with less lean hesitations...

On MOD-X trottle gets to be pressure sensitive courtesy of a satisfied ECU.

He doesn't have a grasp of all details but he's actively MOD'ing to meet full satisfaction.

 

Kristiyan:
The answer is not black or white: it's GREY!

> In American English "You do you" means to each his own singular decision.As an engine builder, Tasos explains well why he is officially on the fence but personally likes it.

As an MB user, good ownership matters more than politics.

 

I can't pull useful data across different engines from my sleeves.

What applies to my rig does not translate 100% to your setup.

It is essential to recognize what stock issues are de-tuning your own powertrain response.


> 5W-40 vs. 5W-50....
-- Cyl. don't really need more anti-friction wet lube !
The key is cyl. need sealed combustions to gain reliable timings.
-- Hot carboned rings disable the ability to seal combustions.
-- Once you understand that, you disable piston heat accumulation.

If I've discovered a fix... ECU:
It's how sensitive the Bosch GDI ECU is to camshaft positioning + random blow-by losses.

Stock messes up mixture control: spongy throttle yields confused tranny jobs.


> INCENTIVES...
Once you get great throttle control, great tranny is complementary.
In fact tranny shifts can be seen as a indication of throttle qualities.


> MAP GALORES...
Sometimes you provide perfect conditions and don't get matching powertrain results ... why?

ECU/TCU use a lot of stored historical data to compute live signals. This allows logic to learn adaptively.

• 4x VVT Gears are mapped
• A/F throttle control
• shift points

Solution is to "give time some time" to refresh maps over 1k to 5kMi.

Plan B is to experiment resetting maps without screwing things up ~ That I do not!


Match issues with solutions.

 

So I spent the last week digging deeper into the m157 oil pump, oil solenoid, how it functions and my conclusions. My first thought about doing this was hesitant. Unfortunately nobody wants to be attacked because the information they have uncovered doesn’t align with what the masses have assumed. Understand I’m not trying to knock anyone, I respect everyone’s time and efforts and the fact that we are all trying to improve the performance of our cars no matter which aspect of the car it may be. In addition I have seen some with not even the ability to take an engine apart make statements about probably one of the best m157 engine builders we will probably ever have, and writing him off as he is some pansy like he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Aka(Tasos). I think it was just a little difficult for him to articulate it so that the avg person can understand it. Or so it seemed. If anyone thinks I’m wrong that’s fine you’re entitled to your opinion. But remember it’s just an opinion until you grab a pump dissecting it like I have and coming up with what you think the pump functions like. But I’m really good at what I do . Again don’t shoot the messenger I’m just sharing my findings and this is just a small sample of what I have done to figure it all out . I will be making a post with detailed pictures small videos with explanations. I’ll just need a little time since I’m busy at the shop . But a quick summary. The pump cannot fail in low pressure, if it fails , it will fail and automatically go back into high pressure, which probably explains why it’s not a hard code since they figured by the time it failed there’s probably a **** ton of miles and there’s no point in dropping everything. 2 things can be true at the same time . Yes this is done for emissions, better fuel economy, longer intervals etc so there’s is definitely some merit to what some have found. I think it has a place. But I’ll go more into detail when I can make a post and explain it all and how it all works .

 

@Cifdig
Thanks for using your resources, money, AND TIME to post some badly missing testing. It’s been a concern. Along with several other potential issues. I would definitely be dissecting my old oil filters in search for guide material if I had a customer running this “mod”. Changing the designed operating oil pressure of the engine creates several interactions within the engine. Some have the potential to damage the engines though unforeseen long term consequences.

The pumps themselves are different too. The M278 has a tandem pump which will also add to the load on the tensioner/guides.

It’s always tough responding to a wall of texts, google searches and vague posts speaking in “tongues”, from people taking this personally. People have to realize, it’s not personal. If your data is wrong, doubling down and posting walls of google searches and youtube videos is unproductive for the community in general. We all realize everyone wants to help. But we’re looking for competency, not quackery.

This is an important data point that should be taken seriously. Remember folks, it’s about load cycles on the pump (mechanical engineering term, not the electrical definition)



Good Luck Folks!




Guide/tensioner had actually broken on this M278 oil pump.





Broken guides, more pressure on the tensioner/guides than people realize.


Broken guides, more pressure on the tensioner/guides than people realize.