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From the XENTRY wiring diagrams @kevm14 posted on this thread, https://mbworld.org/forums/mercedes-...es-me-cel.html, the oil pressure sender (B42) is also connected to the Fuel Pressure and Temperature Sensor (B4/25). Not sure what to make of that yet.
This oil sensor circuit is not married with nearby temp + fuel circuits. All 3 share regulated low power and return separate output values.
So in regard to our oil topic, these circuits are unrelated.
What we said is the ECU logic may be correlating solenoid on/off with pressure sensor.
This is a way to nicely track any "failed open solenoid" to save an engine from low pressure.... beware of incidental "limp mode" while testing this!!
We have a $5 interactive circuit to fool the ECU logic... to be tested soon.
+++ SHARED GND...
We know the importance to service each and every GND circuit on Mercedes-Benz cars - This GND is one of those VIP that can screw our data in more than one weird way 👏
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 12-30-2023 at 12:29 AM.
Confirming my W166 (2015 ML63) does not throw a CEL with plug disconnected.. also, no oil pressure sender.
Thank you for testing that for me
Going to pull the plug on mine shortly, have been following this threads closely.
Props to everyone doing fantastic research along with logs.
Same article for all the turbo engines, M276/278 and M157.
use of marketing vocabulary, and technically inaccurate. It shows the low level of the reviewer either in German, or the translator to English
anyone worth his/her salt would never say flow rate is reduced to 2 bar. On top of that, it gives the impression the pump has two settings: 2 and 4 bar. It does NOT. The pump has to increase pressure as a function of RPM, and the solenoid adjust the clearance such as the pressure does not increase from 2 bar until it reaches a set point, then pressure start rising until it reaches its maximum pressure.
Those paragraphs must be read with context, and carefully interpret the inconsistencies
Can someone explain the value of the dual stage oil pump as explained here:
"significantly lower operating energy input"
Means the energy spent to drive the pump is lower since with the solenoid energized, the pump is operating in restricted volume mode. It's all centered around fuel efficiency.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by ImolaSix
Means the energy spent to drive the pump is lower since with the solenoid energized, the pump is operating in restricted volume mode. It's all centered around fuel efficiency.
In other words, parasitic loss is reduced, much like over-driving a roots-type supercharger requires more hp to build more boost. Turbos, on the other hand, offer free power. BUT, is the parasitic loss from running the oil pump NORMALLY (i.e., linear vs. stepped increase) really worth the added wear on engine components?
In other words, parasitic loss is reduced, much like over-driving a roots-type supercharger requires more hp to build more boost. Turbos, on the other hand, offer free power. BUT, is the parasitic loss from running the oil pump NORMALLY (i.e., linear vs. stepped increase) really worth the added wear on engine components?
I thought they left out the part about "saving energy" for turbo engine applications.
The part that stands out is this newer pump provides computer control. It's a departure from the gear driven pumps with fixed volume. Finally we have computer control to enable new savings!
The new pump is lighter, made of modern aluminum for lasting wear... all the good stuff then.
> REALITY CHECK:
Less energy sounds trendy but no amount of fluff can escape reality check. Field testing this dual-rates pump return mixed results in both driveability and cylinders damages.
Low oil pressure is not compatible with hydraulic timing components. Electrical VVT Phasers and ratcheted tensioners would be a fair improvement.
Random cylinders spraying serves no positive purpose, no saving, no performance. Idle RPM pressure is already below squirters threshold, turbo boost torque requires lubrication...
-- WHY SPLIT HAIR THEN ?
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 12-31-2023 at 12:04 AM.
2004 E55 AMG, 2006 CLS63, 2004 ML55, 2014 E350 sport
Originally Posted by yvngMann
You ever find it on the M278?
Its the same on m278. I did it on my s550.
It had oil in the plug. Im kinda on the fence after watching Tasos recent videos explaining oil pump operation and design. He makes valid points about the oil pump being a different design from the earlier cars like m113 and m156.
I guess im added to the list of guinea pigs as only time will tell as im not keen to put it back after removing it.
Last edited by austingtir; 12-30-2023 at 07:11 PM.
It had oil in the plug. Im kinda on the fence after watching Tasos recent videos explaining oil pump operation and design. He makes valid points about the oil pump being a different design from the earlier cars like m113 and m156.
I guess im added to the list of guinea pigs as only time will tell as im not keen to put it back after removing it.
Which valid points? Essentially it comes down to not cold starting your car with poor conditions, i.e. living in subzero region and parking outside or using too high of a W rated oil in a cold climate. If youre worried that having a pump operate at its intended pressures will lead to premature wear, retrofit a oil pressure sensor and monitor it with a giage or app that alerts you to a critical drop.
Overall I'd rather pay for a new oil pump and enjoy the driveability benefits and the potential engine health benefits than ever drive the car like it was before the solenoid was unplugged.
2004 E55 AMG, 2006 CLS63, 2004 ML55, 2014 E350 sport
Originally Posted by AMGandS1K
Which valid points? Essentially it comes down to not cold starting your car with poor conditions, i.e. living in subzero region and parking outside or using too high of a W rated oil in a cold climate. If youre worried that having a pump operate at its intended pressures will lead to premature wear, retrofit a oil pressure sensor and monitor it with a giage or app that alerts you to a critical drop.
Overall I'd rather pay for a new oil pump and enjoy the driveability benefits and the potential engine health benefits than ever drive the car like it was before the solenoid was unplugged.
He said something about seeing wear on these pumps at 200-300kms. And the fact that its a vane pump like a power steering one with one impellor unlike the m113 and m156 with multiple pumping impellor elements and they are all far smaller than this big single impellor in these pumps. Its just we need to realize that perhaps MB designed this pump with that in mind and lowering the pressure lowers wear on this type of pump. Hopefully changing the oil sooner offsets this.
Again theres no way of really knowing without people trying it. You are assuming that with the solenoid off thats the pumps intended normal position. The only way to know that is talk to the engineer that designed it. Just saying.
Another thing Tasos seemed to mention is maybe the s550 (w222 and maybe c217) has an oil pressure sensor maybe I heard him wrong? I thought I heard him suggest that. And I see someone mentioning a oil pressure sensor above? EDIT: (calibenz/jettared) mention it with the diagram for the C217 m157.... given how MB adds and leaves stuff in maybe the w222 or c217 biturbo's have oil pressure sensors and the rest dont? And that wiring diagram is just a remnant of the w222 biturbo motors in the C217 and w222?
I have xentry so I might see if I can find it.
Last edited by austingtir; 12-30-2023 at 07:44 PM.
He said something about seeing wear on these pumps at 200-300kms. And the fact that its a vane pump like a power steering one with one impellor unlike the m113 and m156 with multiple pumping impellor elements and they are all far smaller than this big single impellor in these pumps. Its just we need to realize that perhaps MB designed this pump with that in mind and lowering the pressure lowers wear on this type of pump. Hopefully changing the oil sooner offsets this.
Again theres no way of really knowing without people trying it. You are assuming that with the solenoid off thats the pumps intended normal position. The only way to know that is talk to the engineer that designed it. Just saying.
If you check I believe @juanmor40 post in M278 land where he actually logged the pump pressure after solenoid removal, it's still a progression of oil pressure across the RPM range. It's not just on max. That's what I understood from it. And there's an manual oil pressure test of this mod (video) that shows the same.
Given these engines almost always need to be pulled for turbo coolant lines every 80-100K, just budget for an oil pump if you really want to be safe. There's always more "while you're in-rhere's" for these vehicles!
But regardless of this, Tasos lives in what, the UAE as I understand? Where the temps are high and the rich who can flaunt the laws on speed limits or afford to track their cars are abundant. Their usage is not a 1:1 of yours unless you infact live there and live that life haha. It's similar to pulling apart a 2JZ that was on a office worker's commuter car vs a guy's drift car. There will be differences in wear and the owner's maintenance intervals.
He has great sample sizes of his clientele simply because more people are affluent enough to buy AMG vehicles and lives in a dense population center.
I wish we had a Merc Indy from the NY/NJ area who did the same content as Tasod as that area boasts an immense AMG population and is a better sample of how most people on this forum will have used their vehicles.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by austingtir
He said something about seeing wear on these pumps at 200-300kms. And the fact that its a vane pump like a power steering one with one impellor unlike the m113 and m156 with multiple pumping impellor elements and they are all far smaller than this big single impellor in these pumps. Its just we need to realize that perhaps MB designed this pump with that in mind and lowering the pressure lowers wear on this type of pump. Hopefully changing the oil sooner offsets this.
Again theres no way of really knowing without people trying it. You are assuming that with the solenoid off thats the pumps intended normal position. The only way to know that is talk to the engineer that designed it. Just saying.
Another thing Tasos seemed to mention is maybe the s550 has an oil pressure sensor? It thought I heard him suggest that. And I see someone mentioning a oil pressure sensor above?
Let me say this again, because some folks are missing the SOLE purpose of this 2-stage approach. Literature outside and inside of Mercedes says that the 2-stage pump is intended ONLY to save gas. Not to improve longevity of oil or the oil pump. If somehow this was a super technological breakthrough of some type, wouldn't that be the hype? Instead they sound like VP Harris trying to explain that operating below and at 2 bar reduces energy consumption, blah, blah, blah. Because, if truth be known, the manufacturers would be hard press to show any real-world fuel savings. But it sure do look good on paper. And most Mercedes new car customers likely unload their cars long before any negative effects become apparent. And if you have an AMG vehicle, well hey, everyone expects high-performance cars to not last like a 1998 Honda Civic.
Yes, I can confirm it is the actual and only code.
Vehicle was last serviced at MB dealership this summer so it may have the latest software that throws the CEL as mentioned in the youtube comments for Tasos video by a MB tech?
2004 E55 AMG, 2006 CLS63, 2004 ML55, 2014 E350 sport
Originally Posted by JettaRed
Let me say this again, because some folks are missing the SOLE purpose of this 2-stage approach. Literature outside and inside of Mercedes says that the 2-stage pump is intended ONLY to save gas. Not to improve longevity of oil or the oil pump. If somehow this was a super technological breakthrough of some type, wouldn't that be the hype? Instead they sound like VP Harris trying to explain that operating below and at 2 bar reduces energy consumption, blah, blah, blah. Because, if truth be known, the manufacturers would be hard press to show any real-world fuel savings. But it sure do look good on paper. And most Mercedes new car customers likely unload their cars long before any negative effects become apparent. And if you have an AMG vehicle, well hey, everyone expects high-performance cars to not last like a 1998 Honda Civic.
I know that and iv read the same stuff you have.
There are just a few too many assumptions going on in here. Tasos explains his reasoning very clearly in the three videos he has now uploaded on this subject and I agree wtih him.
Am I going to replug the plug NO. Im going to run with it but im not going to act like I know it all either.
Everyone has to make their own informed decision on this until years and hundreds of thousands of kms down the track we can all be sure whats going on here.
Let me say this again, because some folks are missing the SOLE purpose of this 2-stage approach. Literature outside and inside of Mercedes says that the 2-stage pump is intended ONLY to save gas. Not to improve longevity of oil or the oil pump. If somehow this was a super technological breakthrough of some type, wouldn't that be the hype? Instead they sound like VP Harris trying to explain that operating below and at 2 bar reduces energy consumption, blah, blah, blah. Because, if truth be known, the manufacturers would be hard press to show any real-world fuel savings. But it sure do look good on paper. And most Mercedes new car customers likely unload their cars long before any negative effects become apparent. And if you have an AMG vehicle, well hey, everyone expects high-performance cars to not last like a 1998 Honda Civic.
Exactly my thoughts. Most of these emission schemes work on manufacturers calculations. They are required to have a percentage of their fleet produced per year meet a certain emission requirement. That's why they can still produce supercars.
That's exactly it on the longevity of these cars. They could honestly care less as long as they satisfy their Lease (which almost all these cars are for the first 2-3 years) then the first cycle of CPO offering. No customer that Mercedes-Benz CARES about will ever see the natural death of these engines. If you want MB to care about you, buy or lease a new AMG GT every year or two.
It's up to the enthusiasts and people who bought these depreciated vehicles to actually keep their spirit and maintenance going.
Which valid points? Essentially it comes down to not cold starting your car with poor conditions, i.e. living in subzero region and parking outside or using too high of a W rated oil in a cold climate. If youre worried that having a pump operate at its intended pressures will lead to premature wear, retrofit a oil pressure sensor and monitor it with a giage or app that alerts you to a critical drop.
Overall I'd rather pay for a new oil pump and enjoy the driveability benefits and the potential engine health benefits than ever drive the car like it was before the solenoid was unplugged.
This is well put!
Few ppl understand that convoluted logic
12-29-2023, 11:22 PM
