(VIDEO) Weird noise upon cold start-up?!? Timing Chain? HELP
Thread Starter
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 177
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From: Atlanta, GA
2005 C230K SS 6MT
(VIDEO) Weird noise upon cold start-up?!? Timing Chain? HELP
Apparently the W203's with the M271 engines have a timing chain issue around 60k-100k miles. I bought this car about a month ago with 85k miles on it for $9,000 and I've noticed this noise and done a TON of research. The only conclusion I can come up with is it's a possible loose timing chain upon start-up.
Can someone with some mechanical expertise PLEASE help. I don't want to lose this engine..
VIDEO:
Can someone with some mechanical expertise PLEASE help. I don't want to lose this engine..
VIDEO:
Last edited by Norsk_Johnson; Dec 28, 2015 at 07:44 PM.
Super Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 527
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From: Carolinas
2005 C230K SS
Mine sounded like that before I did the chain, which was barely stretched. I don't drive the C during the winter months, and it still sounds like that after sitting for a week or two. It's not the chain...it's the noisy variable cam timing that MB put on the M271. I'd say you're good.
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Joined: Oct 2013
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From: Carolinas
2005 C230K SS
Lifter noise is more distinct tap tap noise ie you can actually distinguish the individual taps. With chain noise you hear a continuous gravelly noise. Additionally, chain noise goes away within a few seconds, lifter noise can last several minutes until it's pumped with oil. On cars with non hydraulic lifters, such as my abused 98 civic, the only way to cure lifter noise is to pop the valve cover and adjust the valve lash.
lifter noise:
lifter noise:
Thread Starter
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 177
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From: Atlanta, GA
2005 C230K SS 6MT
Excellent information @RWD, but If you listen to my vid, the noise goes away after 3-4 seconds (like you said regarding the chain).
If it's the lifters, do you think a higher weight oil would help? Like 5w30 Mobil 1? Or even Lucan Oil Stabilizer - even though most MB owners appose the additive?
Thanks!
If it's the lifters, do you think a higher weight oil would help? Like 5w30 Mobil 1? Or even Lucan Oil Stabilizer - even though most MB owners appose the additive?
Thanks!
Super Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 527
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From: Carolinas
2005 C230K SS
It's normal for hydraulic lifters to drain down if the car is not started for a while. Some cars are better at this than others..with the M271 there seems to be no formula. I've gotten lifter tick after sitting overnight in mild temps, on the other hand it's gone weeks without any lifter noise. It doesn't bother me enough to change oil weights.
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Pull a new timing chain & fit a new use once tensioner element immediately.
The minute you hear that cold start rattle that shuts up as the oil pressure rises it's time!
Zero lash hydraulic lifters on a Benz are pretty consistent in noise. Sometimes front of engine noise is cam adjuster rattle but yours sounds typical timing chain. They don't have to stretch much to jump & bend valves. These engines should have been fitted with duplex chains.
The minute you hear that cold start rattle that shuts up as the oil pressure rises it's time!
Zero lash hydraulic lifters on a Benz are pretty consistent in noise. Sometimes front of engine noise is cam adjuster rattle but yours sounds typical timing chain. They don't have to stretch much to jump & bend valves. These engines should have been fitted with duplex chains.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; Mar 11, 2015 at 01:10 PM.
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Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 177
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From: Atlanta, GA
2005 C230K SS 6MT
Thank you for your reply and diagnosis, Glyn. It's what I was afraid of, but I'm really glad to know now. I've been getting a lot of mixed answers on this, so I'm glad to receive your expertise.
I really don't understand why MB would only use ONE chain on an engine like this.. I unfortunately did not muscle this defect when negotiating the price on this vehicle, but oh well.
How many hours of professional labor does it require to do such a procedure? I've got a good MB Indy whom charges me $80/hour. I'd like to buy my own parts so any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks again everyone for all the advice. This Forum has been a HUGE help while owning my Benz.
I really don't understand why MB would only use ONE chain on an engine like this.. I unfortunately did not muscle this defect when negotiating the price on this vehicle, but oh well.
How many hours of professional labor does it require to do such a procedure? I've got a good MB Indy whom charges me $80/hour. I'd like to buy my own parts so any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks again everyone for all the advice. This Forum has been a HUGE help while owning my Benz.
Last edited by Norsk_Johnson; Mar 11, 2015 at 03:02 PM.
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 250
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From: Miami, FL
2009 E63
While I never go against Glyns knowledge or information. I will have to say that based on my research in timing chain on that engine, that is not a loose timing chain noise. I narrowed it down to it being cam adjuster noise. That noise I had before my timing chain replacement and after as well. You can search the threads and you'll see my videos with the same sound.
I will agree with glyn and say replace it if it's possible. It is a a lottery from what I gathered. From my research the new timing chain is different and so is the tensioner.
I will agree with glyn and say replace it if it's possible. It is a a lottery from what I gathered. From my research the new timing chain is different and so is the tensioner.
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Joined: Sep 2011
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From: Austin, TX
2005 C230K(sold), Mk7 Jetta
I can add that on Russian forums people swear by 70k Kilometers chain replacement. There is a host of failures at that mileage. Chains, worn down sprockets, all the good stuff. One can only wonder what causes such rapid wear... Especially when compared to the US cars.
They seem to advise against sudden two-gear downshifts as that potentially leads to chain skipping the sprocket teeth.
They seem to advise against sudden two-gear downshifts as that potentially leads to chain skipping the sprocket teeth.
Last edited by VVF; Mar 12, 2015 at 02:26 AM.
Super Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 527
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From: Carolinas
2005 C230K SS
While I never go against Glyns knowledge or information. I will have to say that based on my research in timing chain on that engine, that is not a loose timing chain noise. I narrowed it down to it being cam adjuster noise. That noise I had before my timing chain replacement and after as well. You can search the threads and you'll see my videos with the same sound.
I will agree with glyn and say replace it if it's possible. It is a a lottery from what I gathered. From my research the new timing chain is different and so is the tensioner.
I will agree with glyn and say replace it if it's possible. It is a a lottery from what I gathered. From my research the new timing chain is different and so is the tensioner.
OP, pull your valve cover and inspect your chain...it will give you a pretty good idea of it's condition. If there is any sag in it then replace. Also turn the engine by hand and observe if it any slack develops as you turn...it should stay taut through an entire cycle. Here is what mine looked like before I replaced the chain...which turned out to be stretched ~2mm at 121k miles.
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...hain-pics.html
Thread Starter
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From: Atlanta, GA
2005 C230K SS 6MT
Well, I definitely intend on having it changed before 90K, that's for sure. RWD, I know you said there wasn't any cure to quieting down that sound at startup, but does anyone have any solution? -After changing TC, of course..
1) I don't want to cheap out on parts, so where can I find the "newer" version of this chain? I'd preferably like to buy the kit, if possible.
2) Off topic, where in the hell can I find a W203 M271 FLEECE oil filter? I can't find one for the life of me?
Thanks fellas!
1) I don't want to cheap out on parts, so where can I find the "newer" version of this chain? I'd preferably like to buy the kit, if possible.
2) Off topic, where in the hell can I find a W203 M271 FLEECE oil filter? I can't find one for the life of me?
Thanks fellas!
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 151
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From: Johns Creek, GA.
2007 e350, 2013 C250, 2004 C320, 2003 C320, 1998 CLK 320
This thread seems to imply you can't get fleece for the M271. https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...ters-pics.html
Here are alternatives.
Mahle should be original to your car
http://www.rmeuropean.com/Part-Numbe...KOOvM4scw.aspx
Mann is a good option (original on W211 and others)
http://www.rmeuropean.com/Part-Numbe...E5OaS811w.aspx
The NAPA on S.R. 141 in Norcross usually carries them. Call first..
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...14X_0293955057
Here are alternatives.
Mahle should be original to your car
http://www.rmeuropean.com/Part-Numbe...KOOvM4scw.aspx
Mann is a good option (original on W211 and others)
http://www.rmeuropean.com/Part-Numbe...E5OaS811w.aspx
The NAPA on S.R. 141 in Norcross usually carries them. Call first..
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...14X_0293955057
Last edited by RCPDesigns; Mar 12, 2015 at 11:39 AM.
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 151
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From: Johns Creek, GA.
2007 e350, 2013 C250, 2004 C320, 2003 C320, 1998 CLK 320
The MANN filter for the 6 cylinder engines is fleece. The 4 cylinder engines (in the USA) all get paper filters. There are a few threads here about the topic but I don't see any where someone has managed to get fleece.
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...e-filters.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...uestion-4.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...e-filters.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...uestion-4.html
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 177
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From: Atlanta, GA
2005 C230K SS 6MT
Yeah, that's what I figured, gents. I wonder why they aren't available in US. Oh, well - Guess I'll just change the filter out twice between oil changes.
Thanks fellas!
@RCP - Do you have any experience in changing timing chains OR know any Reliable Indy's in the area I could get for a good price? I live in Buckhead, but work in the Alpharetta area off Mansell. Thanks
Thanks fellas!
@RCP - Do you have any experience in changing timing chains OR know any Reliable Indy's in the area I could get for a good price? I live in Buckhead, but work in the Alpharetta area off Mansell. Thanks
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
I appreciate all the comments. At your mileage the timing chain must be replaced anyway. Listening to the clip over fairly decent Sony powered speakers hooked to my computer it sounds like chain to me. Cam adjusters & chain make a very similar noise. Without being there with an auto stethoscope it's the best diagnosis I can do.
There is a de-burring procedure for the cam adjusters. It never works. The not so subtle difference is that if the chain jumps you have an expensive rebuild on your hands. If the adjusters rattle you can just put up with it. The only fix is new & expensive adjusters.
So the safe option even if people disagree with me is to pull a new chain & fit a new tensioner. Chain replacement should be a service item on the M271.
There is a de-burring procedure for the cam adjusters. It never works. The not so subtle difference is that if the chain jumps you have an expensive rebuild on your hands. If the adjusters rattle you can just put up with it. The only fix is new & expensive adjusters.
So the safe option even if people disagree with me is to pull a new chain & fit a new tensioner. Chain replacement should be a service item on the M271.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 177
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From: Atlanta, GA
2005 C230K SS 6MT
Thank you again, Glyn. I am very grateful for your input. Once question I do have is once I replace the chain, are there any preventative measures anyone could take to prolong the stretching of this chain? Obviously change the oil at the recommended intervals with Mobil 1 synthetic. Driving habits? Less frequent downshifts? Thanks again!
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 19,942
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From: Llandudno, Cape Town, South Africa
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Thank you again, Glyn. I am very grateful for your input. Once question I do have is once I replace the chain, are there any preventative measures anyone could take to prolong the stretching of this chain? Obviously change the oil at the recommended intervals with Mobil 1 synthetic. Driving habits? Less frequent downshifts? Thanks again!
