blackbenzz

Without cam specs there is no tune. Just a waste of time and money.

suicidal4life

Having the cam specs measured is a pretty quick and cheap process. Here in my home town a place called Delta Camshaft will do it for about $10 and 30min. I'm sure there must be some similar shops in your neck of the woods.

Of course I fully understand you are probably not too excited about R&R'ing the cams again along with buying new tower bolts, seals, etc. However if knowing the specs will allow you to get a decent tune it may be worth the hassle.

If I was in Vrus' shoes I'd probably keep tight lipped too but its only a matter of time before their specs get leaked.

ProjectC55

Nah bro but Kleemann is. That's why I can understand Vic's reasoning. It's like having a secret recipe. I don't think he's being unreasonable I hate to tell you.

ProjectC55

Nope it's not worth going thru the trouble of taking them back out. Trust me! If Ahmad would just trust me! I ent thru the same thing with my Kleemann cams. Sold them unfortunately b4 I actually found someone who could have tuned my car with the cams in the motor and without the cam specs.

Rock

Ahmad, thank you for sharing both the dyno and track results. I wish more people would do this when they add a modification.

So what is the plan now?

Are you going to accept the 9-10hp gain and call it a day or will you attempt to get a custom tune? Even if Cory (Kleemann) had the specs on these cams, can a modified program be written without your car being physically present? Also, if you went the VRP tuning route, is there any guarantee that their program would generate you any better numbers?

JAYCL600

time for twin turbos on that bad boy

Jakpro1

I am so sorry Ahm bout the numbers. I would have never advised you to go with the cams if I didn't think they made pretty good power.

I think it's official. Even though there have been some reports of plug n play with these cams, seems like they are a custom tuning package deal install.



Question, what did your A/F look like on the dyno?? My car was just DUMPING fuel in with the cams and K4 Klee program. Think I got .8 mpg in the garage at one point.

rflow306

+1

I never touched the tune but I had a live tune from the get go.

blackbenzz

Suicidal4life- thanks for the info. I can understand why VRP wont give out the specs but I'm gonna get em anyway, might as well have been nice about it and told me. I promised not to share it with anyone else. I would even use his tune if he had someone on the east coast but thats not the case and I dont see any effort being put forward to do so. If the grind is so special then why dont they just patent it? Most companies have the specs to their cams clearly posted for customers.

Carl - I'm gonna call you in a lil bit.

Rock - no problem. I bet you're happy you didnt keep em huh? lol I'm gonna try to get a custom tune after I do a couple more things Kleemann can make a custom tune based off mustand or dynodynamic dyno files. They just want the specs so they can get agressive with tuning. I'm not sending my car out to Cali for a tune.

Jason - I wish bro, you know thats what I REALLY want

Jim- Not your fault at all buddy. I dont blame you for anything. You are one of the coolest guys on this board The car was running very rich on the dyno. in the 10.X:1 afr's

jangy

Hmmm, couldn't you collect a butt load od datalog data and have them tune it from there? Since it looks like the performance is the same or marginal, I'm curious what your A/F and peaks looked like before. If they were leaned out already, then I would say the cams aren't doing much. But, if they made it richer, maybe a little tune could actually help.

Gotta give it to ya, at least you went for it and are doing it right. I have been scared to open my motor up.

Vadim @ FD

Ok, lets clear some thing first.

1. Cam specs - Ahmad you are welcome to measure the cams. In all honesty, if the tuner is asking your for their specs, than they are looking for an excuse to why the can not make it run right.

2. 9 RWHP gain. Several possibilities:

i. Tune - most likely, cams can make a big difference in tuning. It took me over 30 hours on Jim's E55 to get it right.

ii. Air flow restriction. There could be other bottlenecks that keep you from making power. I just tuned a C55 with Kleemann SC and headers. It made 437 RWHP.

blackbenzz

And what did he/she run in the 1/4? Peak numbers dont mean much, its the area under the curve that matters, well at least to me. I think the car makes alot more power when on the road since there is better airflow and I can take advantage of my big HE, bigger intercooler (compared to stock E55), and CM90 pump. Will this C55 be coming to MIR in November? Would like to see what a heads up run would result in. I know the C55 runs 11:1 c/r compared to my 10.5:1, how much boost is he running?

I am addressing the airflow issue now. It will be an intake design you've never seen on a benz before. Will probably do it tomorrow if nothing else comes up, going to a car show now. I will keep everyone posted.

A dyno tune is in order but not until I do my ice reservoir and intake redesign. As always, new track/dyno numbers will be posted... good or bad. Hopefully I am helping some people make decisions.

Vadim @ FD

Ahmad, not everyone lives by what their car does at the track. Most West Coast people do not care about drags. This is why there is not one in Southern California. Once-every-three-month Fontana hardly counts.
Sorry, but he is not coming to MIR.

How do you know it is intake that is holding you back??

This car has the same 55 Kompressor air boxes that you have and a very BIG heat exchanger.

It is all in tuning my friend.

ProjectC55

I think once Ahmad gets the car tuned by doing both the timing and adjusting the A/F thru the rpm range,his car will be a monster with these cams. I'm almost 100% certain. You obviouly cannot just drop these cams in a if they were plug and play. I found that out when I had installed my Kleemann cams and then sold them.

The airflow on the W208 and W202 AMG's definiitely have to be addressed as well, as I improved that situation on my W202. The intake design on our cars designed by AMG is horrible. The W202 C43 and W208 CLK55 are basically the ssame exact car.

NOW I'm ready for the cams and some custom dyno tuning on my baby.

chiromikey

sure most in general don't care about drag racing but don't think socal people don't enjoy it...afterall, drag racing as a motorsport was basically invented in socal.

blackbenzz

It is a way of comparing how fast cars are. I can put the same car on 5 different dynos and make 5 different numbers. I could even dyno the same car 5 times on the same dyno and make different numbers. At the end of the day, it matters how fast your car is, not how fast it spins the rollers.

JAYCL600

+1

Vadim @ FD

I agree with you that it one of the best ways to compare cars. However, dyno is used for tuning and before and after numbers a lot more often than drags.

In the West, with a lot of open freeways, many of my clients care more about 60-130, than doing it from the dig.

ProjectC55

Well Vadim I hope it's not gonna take them 30hrs to tune Ahmad's car . Is that really possible? You're talking about alot of $$ if that's the case. Who wants to pay for 30hrs? Ahmad does not own a dyno.

AMGSC

I have the Kleemann Cams for NA cars and VRP's tune and never had a problem with loss of power or lumpy idle. It's great to see Cory, Brandon from Kleemann collaborating with Vadim at VRP. Even though they are direct competitors except for SC kit, they respect and support each other. That's why I did not need a Kleemann tune because the VRP tune accomodates all the Kleemann stuff perfectly.

blackbenzz

One problem, I don't live in Cali and dont want to send my car there for a tune and pay for 30 hours of dyno time. Kleemann cams are not as agressive as VRP which is why you dont have a lumpy idle, it has nothing to do with the tune.

jangy

I can attest to the returns you get with tuning time. The dyno makes it easy to get a 2-D feel for how the A/F is doing compared to the power accross a curve. Add in some datalogging data (even generated at the track) and you should have enough to go through the first round of tune. Then, it is all about finetuning: shift points, rpm limits, smoothness of the bands, etc. Yes it takes time and yes it costs, but no way a boxed tune will fit his needs.
Renting a dyno and getting datalog data is easy. Ahmad could do those and send the data along with his ecu to kleeman or VRP for a shot at a tune. I know of a bunch of people who are on their 5th or 6th rendition of a tune and it is just getting better. It is a pain, but it is the only way we will find out if this cam configuration is worthy.

Kudos to Ahmad for trying something new, but that also means it is new territory. I dunno what ECU setup he is running, but he may want to look into a flashbooster so that the data file can just be sent back and forth and the car can stay running.

ProjectC55

Well I feel in that case VRP should develop different levels of software that would support the cams and other supporting components since tuning a car using these cams would take one 30hrs.

How could someone expect one to buy cams for $xxxx.00,then have to spend another $xxxx.00 or more for tuning?

Hopefully VRP will develop SW just like Activeautowerks and Turner Motorsports have done for BMW's that run the Schrick cams( I forgot the name of the guy who developed the SW sold by TMS).

The schrick cams and TMS SW work wonders in my M3. I have an OBD1car that just required a reprogrammed chip while the obd2 cars just require a flash.

Since these are VRP's cams ,it would be great if they could/would come out with some SW like their competitors do so that one can fully enjoy spending their $ and enjoy the potential hp these cams give.

This is not to put VRP down but it is just a request or suggestion that I feel would make these cams user friendly.


1.VRP Cam SW for a car like Ahmad's with the N/A M113 5.5L motor and Kleemann S/C,
2.VRP Cam SW for my car which has a N/A M113 5.5L headers,and full exh
3.VRP Cam SW for the cars that come from the factory S/C'd from AMG.

I want to be able to mod my car just as easy as someone could mod an E39 M5 or any BMW for that matter.

It's not always easy to find someone in your local neighborhood that can get into these bosch ECU's and decipher all the codes that need to be manipulated in order to tune these MB's.

Like I said VRP these are suggestions and no way am I trying to be negatively critical.
Alot of folks here locally, when we have track meets ask about these cams,whether they are plug and play and whether the car needs tuning as a result..

jangy

Not to disagree with the notions here, but what Ahmad is doing is in no way routine and WILL cost $$. To think that any tuner is going to put the resources into developing a tune for each mod combination, especially ones that are not even their parts, before they have it sold is just wishful thinking.

Interesting how you say VRP should do what the "others" do and yet we see very little gains (if any) with the "other" tuners' cams. Generic flashes are a great marketing idea, but will never replace the actual tune.

I've held off on these cams for this very reason. I was the guinee pig to crack the code on the newer E55s and it easily took 30 hours, if not more. It was also about 3 months of total down time on the ride, so you pay to play. Thats why i waited on the cams until i see some real gains. I know we need intake help. I want more air, so maybe the cams have potential.

blackbenzz

Ummm VRP's cams didn't make big gains either and teh other tuner you are referring to retains a decent idle unlike the VRP cams. I have yet to see any data that convincingly says it does make alot of power. The only dynos that VRP posts are the ones that Albert had and that was on a custom tune. Where are all the rest of the dynos from these cars that have cams? Is there a reason why noone else is posting numbers? And HELLLLLL NO I'm not paying $3k for a dyno tune and sending my car out to Cali. This would in total cost me over $6k (tune + shipping) + cost of cams + cost of special tools/bolts + labor. F*ck that! If you think I'm gonna spend ~$10k for unknown results you've been hitting the pipe a little too much. Unless I'm guaranteed to make 100+whp from a tune then I'm not spending that kind of money.

Now I know you are friends with Victor and Vadim, but to blindly support something is not very intelligent. Look at your own personal car for example. 112 traps??? I would be PISSEDDDDD if that was my MODDED E55 that I paid for 30 hours of tuning on top of the price of the mods..