MY ENGINE WENT KA BOOOOOOMMM !!!
03-14-2010, 11:14 PM
#76
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Thread Starter
Gump, if you think deeply about it, 20F degrees intake air is going to go through a supercharger. It is heated in there, and because of the compression and the ambient operating temps under the hood at load, it will probably be at about 120F degrees when it passes the intake air temp sensor. If the ambient was about 60F, intake temps would probably be around 140. This does not include variables such as a 180 pulley, which is known to raise temps even higher, but if the intercooling system recovers the temps quickly, then that will cancel that out. The ME should damn well be capable of adjusting for 40-50F differences in ambient temps. Of course, by adding too much timing and poor fuel maps into the equation, you have instantly taken out one of the preset safety parameters in the control unit.
Keep in mind, these cars were designed to be Autobahn stormers, and there are hundereds, if not thousands of hours of real world testing and development put into the fuel managment systems to ensure that they are functional in the real world. With a stock tune, that includes operating ranges from -30F-+120F.
Nick
Keep in mind, these cars were designed to be Autobahn stormers, and there are hundereds, if not thousands of hours of real world testing and development put into the fuel managment systems to ensure that they are functional in the real world. With a stock tune, that includes operating ranges from -30F-+120F.
Nick
Cars are tuned with a couple of fans in front to somehow compensate or recreate regular driving conditions but there is no way the factors used represent the temperature of that morning!!
03-14-2010, 11:15 PM
#77
In your opinon what was the cause of the blown engine? Do you honestly think that this may have been caused by anything other than a tune? We understand your opinion will be just that but I would still love to hear it.
03-14-2010, 11:18 PM
#78
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3-five-five/ TUNDRA/ 07 997 cab
+1. I think the real way would be one of the two wind tunnel dynos in the US. But those are like 2 million dollars and I am not sure if they really rent them out. That and real world testing.
03-14-2010, 11:19 PM
#79
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and a few more... The white spot on the piston in the first pic I posted above is a hot spot. That point was so hot that it burned all the carbon off of the piston in that place. Unfortunately, the block had a point that got just a little bit hotter a little bit faster.
Nick
Nick
03-14-2010, 11:22 PM
#80
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03-14-2010, 11:25 PM
#81
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C55,SL55,C63
Sorry to hear about your loss. Not saying this have anything to do with anything, But its some food for thought
The Max value the 55's ECU can pull is 12 degrees of timing... On its own. If the ECU needed more degrees of timing to be pulled out... in order not to knock, the motor will blow up. Simply because the ECU can not pull out the amount of timing needed.
The worst I've seen on a Mercedes was 11 degrees of timing being pulled. that was with someone else's tune. Simply put: One tune can kill all numbers on the dyno, one day. Then a few days later be down 50whp. Just from the ECU being over tuned.
It story's like this that make me feel good about running only 100oct.. Cheap knock protection
The Max value the 55's ECU can pull is 12 degrees of timing... On its own. If the ECU needed more degrees of timing to be pulled out... in order not to knock, the motor will blow up. Simply because the ECU can not pull out the amount of timing needed.
The worst I've seen on a Mercedes was 11 degrees of timing being pulled. that was with someone else's tune. Simply put: One tune can kill all numbers on the dyno, one day. Then a few days later be down 50whp. Just from the ECU being over tuned.
It story's like this that make me feel good about running only 100oct.. Cheap knock protection
03-14-2010, 11:27 PM
#82
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GL550, C55, 335i Coupe, vintage Mustang
My opinion, and you all can take it how you like, is that there was way too much fuel, and way too much timing with way too much boost. Unfortunately, you can see on the face of the piston where molten metal, most likely from the hole in the block, was embedding itself into piston. On the valves, you can see where the burned off electrodes got stuck between the valves and the piston. Like I said, unfortunately, with aluminum blocks, when something fails, even if the piston would have given way first, it still would have been fatal for the block also.
Nick
Nick
03-14-2010, 11:30 PM
#83
MBWorld Fanatic!
Gump, if you think deeply about it, 20F degrees intake air is going to go through a supercharger. It is heated in there, and because of the compression and the ambient operating temps under the hood at load, it will probably be at about 120F degrees when it passes the intake air temp sensor. If the ambient was about 60F, intake temps would probably be around 140. This does not include variables such as a 180 pulley, which is known to raise temps even higher, but if the intercooling system recovers the temps quickly, then that will cancel that out. The ME should damn well be capable of adjusting for 40-50F differences in ambient temps. Of course, by adding too much timing and poor fuel maps into the equation, you have instantly taken out one of the preset safety parameters in the control unit.
Keep in mind, these cars were designed to be Autobahn stormers, and there are hundereds, if not thousands of hours of real world testing and development put into the fuel managment systems to ensure that they are functional in the real world. With a stock tune, that includes operating ranges from -30F-+120F.
Nick
Keep in mind, these cars were designed to be Autobahn stormers, and there are hundereds, if not thousands of hours of real world testing and development put into the fuel managment systems to ensure that they are functional in the real world. With a stock tune, that includes operating ranges from -30F-+120F.
Nick
My apologies to the OP.
03-14-2010, 11:37 PM
#85
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C55,SL55,C63
My opinion, and you all can take it how you like, is that there was way too much fuel, and way too much timing with way too much boost. Unfortunately, you can see on the face of the piston where molten metal, most likely from the hole in the block, was embedding itself into piston. On the valves, you can see where the burned off electrodes got stuck between the valves and the piston. Like I said, unfortunately, with aluminum blocks, when something fails, even if the piston would have given way first, it still would have been fatal for the block also.
Nick
Nick
If it was way to much fuel, that would rule out the knock sensor being bad. In most cases i would think it was working well. Trying to communicate with the ECU Thus adding fuel to help prevent knock.
The think is its very hard to say what exactly killed the motor. With a whole in the cylinder, thats knock. But what caused the knock is is question. Bad fuel, not enough fuel in the tune, to much timing.
Boost being mechanical. I would think the boost level was right in line with what others are running. However combined with not enough fuel, to much fuel, to much timing, or any combo of those could do that kind of damage. Its hard to say.
So yeah, if there was to much fuel.. And it was not all getting burned. That could cause a premature ignition of the residual fuel still felt in the combustion chamber... Resulting in detonation.
03-14-2010, 11:50 PM
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GL550, C55, 335i Coupe, vintage Mustang
If it was way to much fuel, that would rule out the knock sensor being bad. In most cases i would think it was working well. Trying to communicate with the ECU Thus adding fuel to help prevent knock.
The think is its very hard to say what exactly killed the motor. With a whole in the cylinder, thats knock. But what caused the knock is is question. Bad fuel, not enough fuel in the tune, to much timing.
Boost being mechanical. I would think the boost level was right in line with what others are running. However combined with not enough fuel, to much fuel, to much timing, or any combo of those could do that kind of damage. Its hard to say.
So yeah, if there was to much fuel.. And it was not all getting burned. That could cause a premature ignition of the residual fuel still felt in the combustion chamber... Resulting in detonation.
The think is its very hard to say what exactly killed the motor. With a whole in the cylinder, thats knock. But what caused the knock is is question. Bad fuel, not enough fuel in the tune, to much timing.
Boost being mechanical. I would think the boost level was right in line with what others are running. However combined with not enough fuel, to much fuel, to much timing, or any combo of those could do that kind of damage. Its hard to say.
So yeah, if there was to much fuel.. And it was not all getting burned. That could cause a premature ignition of the residual fuel still felt in the combustion chamber... Resulting in detonation.
Nick
03-14-2010, 11:55 PM
#89
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Thread Starter
but yeah she's been in good hands all along so the fix should not be an issue!!
03-15-2010, 12:07 AM
#90
My opinion, and you all can take it how you like, is that there was way too much fuel, and way too much timing with way too much boost. Unfortunately, you can see on the face of the piston where molten metal, most likely from the hole in the block, was embedding itself into piston. On the valves, you can see where the burned off electrodes got stuck between the valves and the piston. Like I said, unfortunately, with aluminum blocks, when something fails, even if the piston would have given way first, it still would have been fatal for the block also.
Nick
Nick
Great post Nick and your opinion is always valued and appreciated.
03-15-2010, 12:18 AM
#91
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CLS55 & CL CK60
Really sorry to hear about this loco. I am not a gear head so most of what you guys are talking about is hard for me to grasp but one thing I do know is to follow the guys that have been around for a while. The one thing I was deathly afraid of was picking the wrong tuner for this very reason. Seems like there is a whole "underworld" of experiences that is somewhat tongue and cheek here on mbworld. When I started asking around I started to hear about stuff like what happened to you - only this was almost a year ago. Now it is making its way to the forums. prior to that it was only discussed via PM or by phone.
I agree with Marcus - its not to start bashing anyone - because that doesnt solve anything. But perhaps when faced with exposure, ridicule, loss of business etc. it will make vendors more likely adhere to basic principles and back up their product. The only way we all get better is to share our experiences - good and bad. If a vendor screws up I think by nature we are apt to forgive - as long as they handle it appropriately and take responsibility. Trust me - as a business owner you can only afford so many mistakes - especially if you dont own up to them...
All I ever hear about is XYZ tuner got me an extra 400 RWHP with TUNE ONLY!!! WOOOO HOOO. From what I can tell it isnt all about juicing up dyno numbers - because in the end that fancy number/chart can pose some obvious problems. I rest peacefully believing my tuner has stayed somewhat conservative with my tune - or at least I hope!! Good luck with the rebuild as I am sure you wont make some of the same mistakes twice.
BTW that twin turbo engine would be revolutionaryv
I agree with Marcus - its not to start bashing anyone - because that doesnt solve anything. But perhaps when faced with exposure, ridicule, loss of business etc. it will make vendors more likely adhere to basic principles and back up their product. The only way we all get better is to share our experiences - good and bad. If a vendor screws up I think by nature we are apt to forgive - as long as they handle it appropriately and take responsibility. Trust me - as a business owner you can only afford so many mistakes - especially if you dont own up to them...
All I ever hear about is XYZ tuner got me an extra 400 RWHP with TUNE ONLY!!! WOOOO HOOO. From what I can tell it isnt all about juicing up dyno numbers - because in the end that fancy number/chart can pose some obvious problems. I rest peacefully believing my tuner has stayed somewhat conservative with my tune - or at least I hope!! Good luck with the rebuild as I am sure you wont make some of the same mistakes twice.
BTW that twin turbo engine would be revolutionaryv
03-15-2010, 12:35 AM
#93
Super Member
Man that sucks. I'm thankful I haven't blown a motor. With all that, I can't believe I read 4 pages of this and still not have the goods (name of tuner). I personally think the Internet is a forum for discussing these things openly. This is part of the reason my car is mosly stock, because so much goes on here behind the scenes.
To each their own, good luck repairing the car.
To each their own, good luck repairing the car.
03-15-2010, 12:42 AM
#94
Super Member
This is were I stand, it sucks that your engine blew, Completly sucks and no matter how you drive your car this should not happen, but on the other hand I also feel that we all bare a responsablity to make sure we understand the basic function of the mods we choose and stop taking others word for it. I cant imagine adding 100+ hp and not dubble checking the afrs and timming. Personal I just cant afford to take a tuners word for it. I dont care how good they are.
03-15-2010, 12:58 AM
#95
Super Member
Thread Starter
This is exactly what I posted a few times. I watched it with my own eyes as Jeremy made huge power over LET's tune by just removing timing and fuel. I really hope people do some research and take our opinions a little more serious, the people who has witnessed this first hand.
Great post Nick and your opinion is always valued and appreciated.
Great post Nick and your opinion is always valued and appreciated.
Really sorry to hear about this loco. I am not a gear head so most of what you guys are talking about is hard for me to grasp but one thing I do know is to follow the guys that have been around for a while. The one thing I was deathly afraid of was picking the wrong tuner for this very reason. Seems like there is a whole "underworld" of experiences that is somewhat tongue and cheek here on mbworld. When I started asking around I started to hear about stuff like what happened to you - only this was almost a year ago. Now it is making its way to the forums. prior to that it was only discussed via PM or by phone.
I agree with Marcus - its not to start bashing anyone - because that doesnt solve anything. But perhaps when faced with exposure, ridicule, loss of business etc. it will make vendors more likely adhere to basic principles and back up their product. The only way we all get better is to share our experiences - good and bad. If a vendor screws up I think by nature we are apt to forgive - as long as they handle it appropriately and take responsibility. Trust me - as a business owner you can only afford so many mistakes - especially if you dont own up to them...
All I ever hear about is XYZ tuner got me an extra 400 RWHP with TUNE ONLY!!! WOOOO HOOO. From what I can tell it isnt all about juicing up dyno numbers - because in the end that fancy number/chart can pose some obvious problems. I rest peacefully believing my tuner has stayed somewhat conservative with my tune - or at least I hope!! Good luck with the rebuild as I am sure you wont make some of the same mistakes twice.
BTW that twin turbo engine would be revolutionaryv
I agree with Marcus - its not to start bashing anyone - because that doesnt solve anything. But perhaps when faced with exposure, ridicule, loss of business etc. it will make vendors more likely adhere to basic principles and back up their product. The only way we all get better is to share our experiences - good and bad. If a vendor screws up I think by nature we are apt to forgive - as long as they handle it appropriately and take responsibility. Trust me - as a business owner you can only afford so many mistakes - especially if you dont own up to them...
All I ever hear about is XYZ tuner got me an extra 400 RWHP with TUNE ONLY!!! WOOOO HOOO. From what I can tell it isnt all about juicing up dyno numbers - because in the end that fancy number/chart can pose some obvious problems. I rest peacefully believing my tuner has stayed somewhat conservative with my tune - or at least I hope!! Good luck with the rebuild as I am sure you wont make some of the same mistakes twice.
BTW that twin turbo engine would be revolutionaryv
Man that sucks. I'm thankful I haven't blown a motor. With all that, I can't believe I read 4 pages of this and still not have the goods (name of tuner). I personally think the Internet is a forum for discussing these things openly. This is part of the reason my car is mosly stock, because so much goes on here behind the scenes.
To each their own, good luck repairing the car.
To each their own, good luck repairing the car.
This is were I stand, it sucks that your engine blew, Completly sucks and no matter how you drive your car this should not happen, but on the other hand I also feel that we all bare a responsablity to make sure we understand the basic function of the mods we choose and stop taking others word for it. I cant imagine adding 100+ hp and not dubble checking the afrs and timming. Personal I just cant afford to take a tuners word for it. I dont care how good they are.
03-15-2010, 01:04 AM
#96
Super Member
Thread Starter
This is were I stand, it sucks that your engine blew, Completly sucks and no matter how you drive your car this should not happen, but on the other hand I also feel that we all bare a responsablity to make sure we understand the basic function of the mods we choose and stop taking others word for it. I cant imagine adding 100+ hp and not dubble checking the afrs and timming. Personal I just cant afford to take a tuners word for it. I dont care how good they are.
03-15-2010, 01:08 AM
#97
MBWorld Fanatic!
I commend LOCO 05' E55 for speaking up. I personally believe it takes a lot of guts to put yourself out there and for that I say thank you. Like others here, I too hope you name the tuner.
03-15-2010, 01:14 AM
#98
Super Member
Got engine?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...%3AMESELX%3AIT
You know, I don't miss these threads. Having personally been through one myself, the speculating is the hardest part. In other words, no matter how much you analyze and dissect this, you will never absolutely know what happened. You'll have some pretty good guesses, but in the end, you won't be able to prove much.
That's because these engines were produced at a given power / reliability curve from the manufacturer. Everything we do after the fact increases power and increases the chance of some failure or another. The tune on top of it all obviously has the greatest overall influence, and thus will always be #1 on the hit list (see my previous cracked piston). But that doesn't mean any of a dozen other factors might have been to blame.
We mod, we blow up. Has always been thus, and thus it will always be. And we will always pay for it, not the tuner that feeds our addiction to push our cars. The day tuners have to pay for our misfortune is the days tuners introduce 20hp mods, not 100hp mods.
I had a bad tune. You probably did as well. But that doesn't mean pulling your engine apart is going to magically resolve the liability problem for you. In the end, you're still going to eat it. So name the tuner!
That said, over here behind curtain 1 I have a fine example of a barely used 04 just waiting to be modded and blown up again!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...%3AMESELX%3AIT
You know, I don't miss these threads. Having personally been through one myself, the speculating is the hardest part. In other words, no matter how much you analyze and dissect this, you will never absolutely know what happened. You'll have some pretty good guesses, but in the end, you won't be able to prove much.
That's because these engines were produced at a given power / reliability curve from the manufacturer. Everything we do after the fact increases power and increases the chance of some failure or another. The tune on top of it all obviously has the greatest overall influence, and thus will always be #1 on the hit list (see my previous cracked piston). But that doesn't mean any of a dozen other factors might have been to blame.
We mod, we blow up. Has always been thus, and thus it will always be. And we will always pay for it, not the tuner that feeds our addiction to push our cars. The day tuners have to pay for our misfortune is the days tuners introduce 20hp mods, not 100hp mods.
I had a bad tune. You probably did as well. But that doesn't mean pulling your engine apart is going to magically resolve the liability problem for you. In the end, you're still going to eat it. So name the tuner!
That said, over here behind curtain 1 I have a fine example of a barely used 04 just waiting to be modded and blown up again!
Last edited by FlyByNight; 03-15-2010 at 01:16 AM.
