Meth nozzle pre-intercooler anyone?
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 979
Likes: 38
From: South Africa
2018 E63s AMG (Current) 2011 CL63 AMG (Sold) 2005 CLS55 AMG (Sold) 2004 C32 AMG (Sold)
Meth nozzle pre-intercooler anyone?
Hi all meth Lords.
So I am opening up my SC/intercooler again, have tried a few nozzle locations and am now going to try pre-intercooler, and wondering if anyone has tried this location... Have only read about it being suggested as a bad location due to pooling inside the intercooler etc... But I have not seen any additional power gains from my previous 2 setups hence me giving this one last go.
So I am opening up my SC/intercooler again, have tried a few nozzle locations and am now going to try pre-intercooler, and wondering if anyone has tried this location... Have only read about it being suggested as a bad location due to pooling inside the intercooler etc... But I have not seen any additional power gains from my previous 2 setups hence me giving this one last go.
Member
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 99
Likes: 11
From: VA
NA
I've been looking into wmi for my car for the last week, and the only thread (which I'm sure you've already read) which mentions the pre-IC location is this one -- https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...ocations.html# Bruce from TTM said basically that he'd installed many nozzles at this location on m113k's with great success. Whether you want to believe that at this point (I have no skin in the game but it seems like TTM has lost a fair bit of credibility on this forum) is obviously up to you.
Do you mind sharing your current setup?
Do you mind sharing your current setup?
Super Member
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 899
Likes: 140
2005 E55
It will puddle any where if you spray too much :-P
Here is a thread that talks about it, I explain in decent detail in post 16 why it's more efficient to spray post IC and there is lots of other good input in the thread, give it a read.
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...ting-find.html
EDIT: Oops sorry, bviously you've seen that, I just realized it was your thread haha.
Here is a thread that talks about it, I explain in decent detail in post 16 why it's more efficient to spray post IC and there is lots of other good input in the thread, give it a read.
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...ting-find.html
EDIT: Oops sorry, bviously you've seen that, I just realized it was your thread haha.
Last edited by drothgeb; Sep 26, 2017 at 12:27 AM.
Super Member
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 899
Likes: 140
2005 E55
From doing lots of reading it sounds like the general consensus is the best two options are as follows:
1- A single #10 nozzle just after the IC. Several people have used different spots, on the side allows access without removing SC, or on the bottom prevents the spray from going into the MAP and allows max distance from IAT.
2- Dual nozzle with one #7 just after the IC as described above, and a single #3 pre-SC.
While I have not added meth to my car yet, I have worked with water injection a fair amount before. I just completed my parts purchasing and am doing option number 2. If you still haven't gotten your set up straigtened out in the next week or so once I have my install taken care of I'll let you know how my results are
1- A single #10 nozzle just after the IC. Several people have used different spots, on the side allows access without removing SC, or on the bottom prevents the spray from going into the MAP and allows max distance from IAT.
2- Dual nozzle with one #7 just after the IC as described above, and a single #3 pre-SC.
While I have not added meth to my car yet, I have worked with water injection a fair amount before. I just completed my parts purchasing and am doing option number 2. If you still haven't gotten your set up straigtened out in the next week or so once I have my install taken care of I'll let you know how my results are
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 979
Likes: 38
From: South Africa
2018 E63s AMG (Current) 2011 CL63 AMG (Sold) 2005 CLS55 AMG (Sold) 2004 C32 AMG (Sold)
Awesome, would love to see how your results go, please do share @drothgeb
Well so far sharing what I have done and setup, tried etc... 1 no. 10 nozzle in the throttle body... Result waste of time, only place a nozzle here if you wanting a little extra boost as it seals the rotors in the Supercharger as mentioned by all many times. I got about another 1-1.5psi of boost at this location, I do live at 5000ft altitude though, so not sure what sea level results will be.
I have tried 2 x no. 3 nozzles post intercooler, result was the intake Temps dropped beautifully up to about 4500rpm then the meth spray was pushed past the intake sensor and Temps rapidly raised. So I upgraded to 2 x no. 5 nozzles and had the same result except the temp rise was now delayed to 5500rpm before the rise of Temps. With that setup on the dyno I could do back to back runs and no power loss, so no heat soak results as you get without meth. But I am still on the hunt for additional power on top of without tuning for the meth which is achieved in other platforms. So will be finishing up another setup tomorrow hopefully where I have 1 x no. 10 nozzle placed pre-intercooler as a friend of mine did his that way and swears by he gained power from it. So I am doing his exact setup. I have my 2 exciting no. 3 nozzles in place post intercooler for now, however they are not connected up. So I will be checking the results of the single pre-intercooler and then after that reconnect the 2 nozzles post intercooler as well and see what is what. Feeling like a mad scientist in the garage right now. Lol... Sorry for the long winded post.
Well so far sharing what I have done and setup, tried etc... 1 no. 10 nozzle in the throttle body... Result waste of time, only place a nozzle here if you wanting a little extra boost as it seals the rotors in the Supercharger as mentioned by all many times. I got about another 1-1.5psi of boost at this location, I do live at 5000ft altitude though, so not sure what sea level results will be.
I have tried 2 x no. 3 nozzles post intercooler, result was the intake Temps dropped beautifully up to about 4500rpm then the meth spray was pushed past the intake sensor and Temps rapidly raised. So I upgraded to 2 x no. 5 nozzles and had the same result except the temp rise was now delayed to 5500rpm before the rise of Temps. With that setup on the dyno I could do back to back runs and no power loss, so no heat soak results as you get without meth. But I am still on the hunt for additional power on top of without tuning for the meth which is achieved in other platforms. So will be finishing up another setup tomorrow hopefully where I have 1 x no. 10 nozzle placed pre-intercooler as a friend of mine did his that way and swears by he gained power from it. So I am doing his exact setup. I have my 2 exciting no. 3 nozzles in place post intercooler for now, however they are not connected up. So I will be checking the results of the single pre-intercooler and then after that reconnect the 2 nozzles post intercooler as well and see what is what. Feeling like a mad scientist in the garage right now. Lol... Sorry for the long winded post.
Last edited by C32owner; Sep 26, 2017 at 08:14 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 4,037
Likes: 1,011
From: Miami, FL
2003 CL 600
Injecting pre-intercooler has the disadvantage of still passing through the i/c area, which can be hotter than the meth/water. If your meth is trying to cool the i/c system, it will do less for the actual charge air. It depends on your actual temps though.
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 979
Likes: 38
From: South Africa
2018 E63s AMG (Current) 2011 CL63 AMG (Sold) 2005 CLS55 AMG (Sold) 2004 C32 AMG (Sold)
On a side note, everyone talks about having to get the benefit of Colder air seen by the IAT to prevent the pull in timing advance but has anyone actually shown a log where this timing pull is happening?
Eg.. Apparently the ecu pulls timing in the 3 stages, IAT AT 35C 45C and 65C, that later as much as 9.5degrees.. That is huge timing pull.. Now I would actually like to see evidence of this timing pull, as I recently went through my datalogs with my last meth setup and there was no timing pull of course as my Temps where kind of in check yet still got to about 50C (122F) however I had no timing pull, it was still adding timing up to 19 degrees at the top of the run. Now before we assume yes it was adding because I was using a w/m mix, I thought let me check out my very first logs, before I even started with the cooling upgrades, ie stock cooling system, yet had smaller pulley and few other things. Well on those runs my intake Temps hit 72C (162F) and guess what, no timing pull I can see either, as timing was added as the rpm's climbed, and timing again ending at about 19degrees... So I would like to see this evidence of fooling the IAT with cooler air where this difference is in timing?
Eg.. Apparently the ecu pulls timing in the 3 stages, IAT AT 35C 45C and 65C, that later as much as 9.5degrees.. That is huge timing pull.. Now I would actually like to see evidence of this timing pull, as I recently went through my datalogs with my last meth setup and there was no timing pull of course as my Temps where kind of in check yet still got to about 50C (122F) however I had no timing pull, it was still adding timing up to 19 degrees at the top of the run. Now before we assume yes it was adding because I was using a w/m mix, I thought let me check out my very first logs, before I even started with the cooling upgrades, ie stock cooling system, yet had smaller pulley and few other things. Well on those runs my intake Temps hit 72C (162F) and guess what, no timing pull I can see either, as timing was added as the rpm's climbed, and timing again ending at about 19degrees... So I would like to see this evidence of fooling the IAT with cooler air where this difference is in timing?
Trending Topics
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 979
Likes: 38
From: South Africa
2018 E63s AMG (Current) 2011 CL63 AMG (Sold) 2005 CLS55 AMG (Sold) 2004 C32 AMG (Sold)
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
Super Member
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 899
Likes: 140
2005 E55
Well I got my kit put together. Results are pretty great so far. I recorded one pull rolling from about 15mph to 110mph, but I wont be able to get 1/4 mile comparisons until the end of the month. Temps hit 90 peak, and timing was overall higher. In my track pases you can see I hit 20° of timing at like one point but most passes don't even touch 20. On my one pull with meth if you ignore the shift points the majority of the time timing is over 20. The plots aren't great though, so it's a little rough to see. I need to turn up the logging rate and only log one point.
I didn't see an increase in boost pressure but I'm assuming it's related to traction control/torque management. I have the blinking light until 45 mph.
I couldn't get it heat soaked for the start of the run like it is at the track but I think it's going to work out pretty great.
I didn't see an increase in boost pressure but I'm assuming it's related to traction control/torque management. I have the blinking light until 45 mph.
I couldn't get it heat soaked for the start of the run like it is at the track but I think it's going to work out pretty great.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,036
Likes: 169
From: Portland, Oregon
2019 Jeep Trackhawk, 2002 CLK55, 2014 911 Carrera
I will patiently await more results from the track. :-)
Now that racing season is over up here in the NW I am starting the winter upgrade shopping list, and Meth is at the top.
Now that racing season is over up here in the NW I am starting the winter upgrade shopping list, and Meth is at the top.
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 979
Likes: 38
From: South Africa
2018 E63s AMG (Current) 2011 CL63 AMG (Sold) 2005 CLS55 AMG (Sold) 2004 C32 AMG (Sold)
Thanks for sharing @drothgeb interesting you didn't get a boost rise with the pre-tb nozzle, if you have a bigger nozzle try that there, I definitely had an increase in boost. I'm still struggling getting my setup back up and running. Replacing my MAP sensor at the moment, but unfortunately I just cannot get out the one bolt without having to remove the darn SC yet again.! Hopefully I will have this done tomorrow. Reason for changing the map sensor is after putting my system back together, I am only showing 1.5psi of boost. Have no idea what has happened, I don't hear any leaks anywhere and car seems to still pull, so I am hoping it's just the map sensor, although the car is running smooth.
Super Member
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 899
Likes: 140
2005 E55
Hey gents, I know it's 5 months later haha, but I have an update on the meth for the first track day of the new season. Worked great! Didn't hit triple digits once during a pull, all mid 90s. That's with CWA50, Frozen Boost Hx, 3 Nozzle Pre-SC and 7 Nozzle Post-IC. Lots of low 20s timing, OAT ~75.
Usually starting at the end of staging at ~120, burn out with meth on(if I didn't mess up the burn out) would pull IAT down to ~100, then after launch IATs would pull it down to mid 90s for the whole run. Anyways, a log of a few runs are attached. Pretty stoked to go from 160 IAT at the end of a run to 95 with a $250 meth set up (Oh and LTHs got added during the winter, that helps too I'm sure but never got to compare)
Usually starting at the end of staging at ~120, burn out with meth on(if I didn't mess up the burn out) would pull IAT down to ~100, then after launch IATs would pull it down to mid 90s for the whole run. Anyways, a log of a few runs are attached. Pretty stoked to go from 160 IAT at the end of a run to 95 with a $250 meth set up
(Oh and LTHs got added during the winter, that helps too I'm sure but never got to compare)
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 979
Likes: 38
From: South Africa
2018 E63s AMG (Current) 2011 CL63 AMG (Sold) 2005 CLS55 AMG (Sold) 2004 C32 AMG (Sold)
Hey gents, I know it's 5 months later haha, but I have an update on the meth for the first track day of the new season. Worked great! Didn't hit triple digits once during a pull, all mid 90s. That's with CWA50, Frozen Boost Hx, 3 Nozzle Pre-SC and 7 Nozzle Post-IC. Lots of low 20s timing, OAT ~75.
Usually starting at the end of staging at ~120, burn out with meth on(if I didn't mess up the burn out) would pull IAT down to ~100, then after launch IATs would pull it down to mid 90s for the whole run. Anyways, a log of a few runs are attached. Pretty stoked to go from 160 IAT at the end of a run to 95 with a $250 meth set up (Oh and LTHs got added during the winter, that helps too I'm sure but never got to compare)
Usually starting at the end of staging at ~120, burn out with meth on(if I didn't mess up the burn out) would pull IAT down to ~100, then after launch IATs would pull it down to mid 90s for the whole run. Anyways, a log of a few runs are attached. Pretty stoked to go from 160 IAT at the end of a run to 95 with a $250 meth set up
(Oh and LTHs got added during the winter, that helps too I'm sure but never got to compare)
Super Member
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 899
Likes: 140
2005 E55
I am super stoked with the temps. I did about 7 passes, didn't see tripple digits at all.
I am running -20 washer fluid which I believe is about 30/70. I'm thinking about going 100% water because I don't like being rich either. The washer fluid is making me like .5ish richer. I'm 11-11.5 range without spray and 10.5-11 with. I might exeriment with both at my next track trip.
I am running -20 washer fluid which I believe is about 30/70. I'm thinking about going 100% water because I don't like being rich either. The washer fluid is making me like .5ish richer. I'm 11-11.5 range without spray and 10.5-11 with. I might exeriment with both at my next track trip.
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 979
Likes: 38
From: South Africa
2018 E63s AMG (Current) 2011 CL63 AMG (Sold) 2005 CLS55 AMG (Sold) 2004 C32 AMG (Sold)
Cool let's see what results come up with. With 100% meth I was easily in the 9's if I recall about 9.7 afr... So rich.. Need to check or log with what I have in now..
