SonnyakaPig

At this point, with so much about tuning the C63 shrouded in mystery, I am comfortable being a "spectator" who is actively learning about the available tuning options.

There really shouldn't be so much secrecy and ambiguity about the competing tunes; especially so for the discrepincies in the available tuning parameters.

The high cost of replacement engines/transmissions for our cars is a good reason for many people to want to discuss the various claims and conduct of the tuners that populate the MB aftermarket.

mr-flyer

I still don't see any useful info info from anybody. MHP can't reply cuz they're banned and powerchip doesn't wanna share! Why start the thread in the first place?

Benz-O-Rama

I really don't have a dog in this fight, but the highlighted portion, I know for a fact, is not true.

A member of this board, and someone who I became acquaintances with at track rental events and local meets, had one of the MHP ECU/TCU tunes. Now, it's true that it was under the Dave Casper era, but your statement says that they never lost a tranny, and that's simply not true.

I was at MIR the very first time he raced his newly MHP tuned E63 and the car would not shift under WOT. Or when it decided to shift, it shifted poorly. He had to limp it home, but luckily, the car was under warranty and the transmission was replaced.

His car was previously tuned by RENNtech, and I believe he was able to squeeze an 11.99 out of it with that tune. I don't think he was ever able to make a full pass with an MHP tune.

The C63 boys seem to be happy with MHP stuff though.

sorrentoguy

Dont shoot the messenger cause this is about TCU tuning by MHP....

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index....pic=36680&st=0

whats up with this?

and Andy has said stuff about C63 transmission here
http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index....dpost&p=501968

What does MHP means when he say about vapourwear.....

I asked you about the Bosch ME9.7 because I'm interested if you can work your voodoo magic on that controller as well, we cannot OBD flash that ECU, so if you can it would be highly impressive. So no one has the bootloader codes, that tells me why no one can flash the TCU, and again, I don't see it happening anytime soon. Where are all these TCU gurus and their products? I can't seem to find any results whatsoever?

Until a product actually hits the market it's still vaporware.

RStevens63

I just called Andy again, he answered again, and laughed at your statement. He knows the car in question and says what your talking about was during a burnout in 2nd gear that the owner hit the limiter which put the car into a limp mode until 20 minutes later someone with a scanner cleared the code.

Now if you want to blame MHP for someone driving their car hard for the thousands of miles it was tuned by another tuner previous that's your call but makes no sense to me.

Enjoy the witchunt or maybe try verifying some information you post as fact before doing so.

RStevens63

I wasn't around this forumm then but can't imagine the pissing being any worse than what's going on here and now. This would not fly on any other forum I've ever seen. All I see is results posted by their customers and you cant argue with that as a reasonable man I wouldnt think. I will say that after reading some of the posts you linked I probably would have overdosed on tylenol if I had to deal with some of the nonsense from certain members.
I would say anyone that bought a VRP pulley got scammed. I would say that someone who replaces a defective product at his cost is a stand up business person, maybe you didnt hear or catch that part. The guy couldve bailed on the name and business but instead chose to make the wrongs that werent even really his fault right, afterall Dave Casper was his tuner. No one charges more for mercedes tuning than Brabus. MKB is I believe next, then Renntech, this is based on what I can find on the net MKB was a direct quote. MPHs pricing is in the middle or lower half despite generating the best numbers.
Instead of tagging someone for what they did and not giving them credit for making good to the customers that wanted it I think you might be better served looking at what they've done to improve themselves in the meantime.
I'm pretty sure a lot has happened since the last time you cared to look but you probably dont care which is clear from your posts.
Every tuner has die hard fans who cares? I don't care about opinions I care about numbers.
This thread is a total waste and I'm retiring from playing phone boy, the number is there for anyone to call for a direct answer, best of luck to you and everyone else. I feel the need to do something positive now like take a shower.

Benz-O-Rama

Yup, just got a message from Andy himself, stating the same thing.

I'll state here, what I told him.


His version of what happened and the owner of this car's version of what happened are two different version. Not gonna get into a he said/she said, as again, I don't have dog in this race. Ask Andy about the owner having to buy another ECU, and the promises of reimbursement, and the many failed attempts at tuning the ECU. In Andy words, the tune "didn't take". Search on this very forum, you'll find all the info you need. I do think at one point early on, the owner was actually happy with tune. But again, I think that was after one of the "didn't take" tunes. Placebo, I suppose.

Facts are: Car ran great with RENNtech tune, transmission and ECU had to be replaced with MHP tune.

Andy also states the transmission had issues prior to his tune, which is news to me. If the tranny was sick, why did Andy do a TCU tune on it? It is possible though, I can't be positive, but the owner made no mention of that to me.


As I also mentioned, this happened during the Dave Casper era. Maybe things have changed since then, I have no clue. Man, I hope so.



*****EDIT****

I have been informed by Andy that they did indeed reimburse Jeff for his blown ECU. Kudos for that. Last I heard, that hadn't happened. He also mentioned another tidbit about his RENNtech tune, which I was also unaware of.

Andy has also given me a very detailed explanation of what he believes the problem to have been with this particular car. His explanation seems reasonable, it's just a much different story than I got from the owner.

It's hard to know what to believe. As I told Andy, the tranny blew on his watch, and that doesn't look good for MHP....he agrees. Did MHP cause it? Was there a previous issue with it? I guess we'll never know, I suppose.

So, I guess the only right thing to do is recant my statement that I'm 100% sure MHP blew his transmission, because I'm not. But, I can say for certain that I was told by the owner he thinks they're responsible.



On an aside, I'm close to getting a TCU tune on my SL600! Hoping for another personal best at MIR this fall. I guess Andy and I can discuss this further, then. Maybe that infamous E63 will also be there. Probably not.

RStevens63

Pretty much sums it up. You think theyd still be around?

Zod

Am sorry are you blind?
Or just do not like to read?

I just went through the whole GTR thread and oh dear, what I found even more funny was the combination of EX mbworld members and Toyota/Lexus guys clawing away at MHP. It was also refreshing for them to have more muture & Technical people on board, rather than blind following.

The actual threads from MBworld I posted above, were there since JAN, in the same order !

This post (191) also might trigger some alarm bells

‘’I have firsthand experience with a few shops that were banned from all IB forums. They were banned because there was irrefutable proof of their scamming of others. It is funny how they used the same excuse that you do. "Everyone has misinformation. We did nothing wrong. IB hates everyone."

The truth is, it takes A LOT to be banned as a vendor by IB. The evidence has to be deep and staggering against said vendor. Hopefully NAGTROC will do a bit of investigation, as well. ''

And as I said form members who defended him, got turned on, add that E63 above to the list

This is not including the Middle East customers that got left out to dry with the ISF's & Toyotas

Go do your research lad, this is advice....
Most of the info is from the CUSTOMERS them selves!

RStevens63

You do know that powerchip was banned from this site for several months recently? That they are banned from other sites presently as well?

I read through the GTR threads and MHP took no money or orders from anyone on those forums, it looks like they just gave up on the market because it wasn't profitable so sue them. Maybe its your hate thats blinding you?

Enjoy the rest of your smear campaign I really hope you find what your looking for lad.

MB_Forever

Zod, I did not forget.... I can not comment on non Mercedes customers as I'm not familiar with those threads. However, regarding the the mbworld members, most of them who were not satisfied with the MHP tune were fully refunded (I believe there were 3). As was mentioned earlier, most of the problems regarding delays, shipments, and wrong ECU files stemmed from Dave's side. I'm not at all exonerating MHP from that; on the contrary, I (and I'm sure many others as well) hold them and Andy 100% responsible for Dave's mishaps because he worked for him, and people usually don't care where the error happens within a company; they only care that it did happen - correctly so I might add. However, I do also give them credit for dealing with the problem quickly and swiftly. Other companies take years and years to do the same.... and I think you know which ones I mean

I think Jrcart was the only one that didn't get a refund, but I'm not 100% sure on what ended up happening between him and MHP. The Jrcart thread is definitely one of the most interesting (and a bit controversial) between the other customer threads. In summary, after Jrcart got the MHP tune, he fully praised it and was very happy/impressed by it. I believe he even posted dynos showing gains. Then after the ECU was handed over to Powerchip due to alleged hickups, he started hating it and believed that it was nothing more than a modified version of the Powerchip file.

On a side note, notice that in almost every single thread you posted, MHP was unable to respond. To get a more balanced discussion, one would need to hear both sides of the story. But that is not possible here unless they get temporarily unbanned to respond (at least) to this thread. Moreover, if you think a couple of "unhappy" MHP customers is a big number, I can assure you that there are probably 10 times that amount of "unhappy" Powerchip customers. I have received many PMs and have discussed many shortcomings/concerns via e-mail/telephone/in person with forum members as well as non members regarding the issue. Unfortunately, some of the threads never reach this forum while others get lost.

Now back to data.... based entirely on data available on this forum, dragtimes and a couple of other Mercedes forums, MHP products have dominated the C63 1/4 mile times. I know of at least 8 different C63s with MHP long-tube headers and a tune running 11.4 to 11.5 at 122 to 124 mph in the 1/4 mile. Almost every one of them is in a different state (two are in different countries), many running at different tracks, and of course using different cars and different drivers. Yet the results are very consistent and seem to be easily duplicatable. Also, many of those customers have posted dynos at different shops using different machines as well as videos and pictures. This is important because it shows that their claimed numbers were not just forged or manipulated by MHP to sell the products; the gains have been verified by many different customers (most on the track which is best method in my opinion). I think we've all seen instances where companies sometimes show high dyno numbers to sell mods but when customers dyno their cars independently or track them, they see much lower numbers that are nowhere close to what was originally claimed. Later, the blame is then thrown on the dyno machine or dyno operator or whether conditions. Moreover, all of those customers have commented on how satisfied and happy they were with the customer service they received even more than the actual product

Disclaimer: before people accuse me of being an MHP customer or fan boy, let me take this opportunity to say that I am NOT an MHP customer. Actually, I have been a Powerchip customer twice, RennTech customer twice, Kleemann customer once, and MHP customer ZERO times. In addition, I am not a personal friend of Andy's and have talked to him maybe only 3 to 4 times over the last 3 years mostly asking about products for my E63.

SonnyakaPig

MB Forever,

You mentioned the 8 or so cars that all run MHP true LT's and MHP tunes and that they run the best times.

Based on the available data for most if not all of the tunes for the C63's, the bottom line is that all of the tunes are rather close in power output. That's because there's only so much that can be done and equally so, needs to be done to remove the "de-tune" status of the C63 and even increase the power beyond that.

Therefore, the MHP tune that those 8 MHP LT customers are using probably isn't the major factor contributing to their 1/4 dominance. Sure, the tune is part of the equation but, considering that any other C63 tune can achieve very similar power numbers to MHP tuned and LT equipped cars if they are also running MHP LT's, this strongly indicates that the MHP LT's are the major factor contributing to the success at the 1/4 mile.

Therefore, respect should be give to MHP for developing real LT's that clearly work.

But, I don't believe it would surprise anyone if one of those Dragtimes 1/4 mile record C63's that run MHP LT's and MHP tune would run nearly as fast if not as fast if they ran a Powerchip, K1, etc. tune. (I acknowledge that some MHP LT equipped cars have improved their times by a tenth or two once the owners switched their tunes to MHP from other brands, but the reality is 1-2 tenths can be made up or lost depending on many variables, not just tune).

So, I understand that MHP sells a quality tune that makes some powerful cars, but in your example it's the LT's that are making the real difference. And naturally so, considering the fastest C63's all have headers, with the fastest of that group running MHP.

I will admit that there may be an outlier or two in the aftermarket exhaust manifolds represented in the top C63 1/4 mile drag times. But, clearly MHP LT's make the most power.

RStevens63

Um MHP has the only 4 tune and drag radial C63s to ever run 11s in the 1/4 mile. Three of them are on this forum malooamg, dodger63 and c63beastdriver. The other would be their old shop car.To my knowledge they are the only ones with any such equipped c63s doing so.

I've been searching my butt off in this forum and can't find anything even close to an 11 from a powerchip tuned c63. Nothing? How is that possible?

The notion that all tuning is the same is totally bogus no matter what kind of car or truck were talking about, if it were true we would see an equal number of tuned cars from each tuner running on par with in this case MPH. And we do not. Renntech and MKB are the ones that are competing.
Give credit where it's do. Some people claim to be things others do those things, it's clear to me who is who. Focus on the results the rest is just noise. Peace.

MB_Forever

You are very correct. And no one is claiming MHP tuning is some miracle or even is twice as good as everybody else's. Most customers are just saying that the tune does have a certain edge over other tunes... that's all. They've seen the difference on the (independent) dynos and at the track.

Now to be fair, lets include some data from other tuners as well. During our last private rental at Famoso (November 2009), on a good DA day (average of 250 ft) and 58 F temps, there were 3 C63s that ran with us: one had PC tune only, one had PC tune + Kleemann headers, and one had Evosport LT + PC tune. All three cars were running mostly 12.1 to 12.5 in the 1/4 mile. Not bad for that day I guess. On the following event (January 2010), we had two other C63s: one with long tubes + PC tune and another with just Kleemann tune (unfortunately this time the DA was closer to 1500 ft). Again, the results were 12.1 to 12.5. I'm hoping that this November, we'll get a few more C63s to add to the stat pool and give us a clearer comparison.

By the way, this thread has derailed and is branching into too many off topic discussions

SonnyakaPig

You raise good points.

Remember, in my previous post I was commenting on which modification -- headers or tune -- was most responsible for the top 8 car's success.

Again, if MHP LT's are on the C63, pretty much any established tune will allow that car to run mid 11's, if there's traction (which I admittedly didn't mention in my previous post, but which is undoubtedly relevant).

Now, you pointed out that in the category of C63s that break into 11's with only a tune and DR's, MHP is the only brand represented in that category. Those results speak for themselves.

It is also entirely possible that the cars with tune and DR's that are breaking into the 11's are driven by better drivers than other cars have behind their wheel.

It seems like there just aren't enough C63's with various mod combinations that go to the track in comparison to other car makes and models. As you found in your search, there weren't any other C63's with DR's and tunes in the 11's.

I find that somewhat telling but not completely explanatory. It shows that MHP makes some consistent performing tunes. But at the tune only power level, the real variables at the track is going to be the driver and traction.

This is just my opinion: If there are C63's w/tune (but not MHP) and DR's running low 12's, like 12.3 and lower, depending on their previous 60-ft. times, it is reasonable to think they could also break into the 11's on a good track day.

SonnyakaPig

Why are you so against Powerchip?

They merely questioned MHP's claim that they can tune the TCM through the ECU, because they obviously don't believe you can.

Isn't the consensus that the TCM can't be tuned? So, what's the big deal?

Can the stall speed be raised? Yes or No? And if so, is that done in the ECU or TCM?

I think there should be no ambiguity on this subject.

Edit: I don't mean to argue, so please know, I'm not trying to suggest that because you are taking the position that you are, that you have all of the answers. I'm just saying that, we should all know the answers to the above questions.

SonnyakaPig

Good info. And I agree, this thread is all over the place.

If we were really trying to understand how each of those cars were performing in relation to their modifications, we would also want to know things like trap speed, 60-ft times, whether the cars had P31 package to begin with, whether the cars had LSD (does the LSD even make that noticable of a difference at the track for our cars? *sorry tangent), in addition to the factors that you mentioned.

I'm also looking forward to this season furthering the stat pool.

RStevens63

The thing is there are other cars racing at the track with just a tune and drag radials, they just aren't making it into the 11s they are on dragtimes take a look.
Ask any c63 driver with a tune and drag radials how easy it is to launch their car at the track the just mat the pedal there is no skill like in a stick car.
dodger63 ran his 11s at his first time at the track with his c63. c63beastdriver ran his 11s at his first time ever at 1/4 mile track.

Proposing that someone running low 12s could break into the 11s is kind of a coulda woulda shoulda scenario. whose to say they arent already running in great air or have all the traction they need?

You seem like an intelligent guy just look at the numbers. not just what they are but how many are out there. Im sure powerchip has tuned a ton of c63s so how could none have broken into the 11s or even come close on a non powerchip related dyno?
Things to think about we both know not just MPH customers love to race!

RStevens63

I'm against anyone slamming anyone when one party cant respond and this is no surprise to powerchip, they knew MPH couldnt defend themselves on this site. now that it comes to lite that powerchip could have addressed MPH directly about this at any time and has even been reading MPHs responses on another forum it makes it very clear to me that this thread has no other purpose than to smear MPHs name. powerchip has obvious motives to do so, heck they did something very similar to OE Tunings lead tuner who used to work with them just a week or two ago on this forum.

This is the 4th time I'm going to post it but if you want the answers to these questions go to the bmw forum where mhp is posting or call or email directly. The dude gets back to you fast with no bs answers I think hes a robot that doesnt sleep.

Going thru the history of this thread it seems like youve decided to listen to powerchips stance despite the fact there are no trophies on their wall. Ask a MPH customer what their shifts feel like what they experienced some have had more than just one tune on their c63 so I would definitely hit them up.

SonnyakaPig

Regarding dyno numbers, from stock car to stock car (speaking about C63's) and from tuned car to tuned car, the cars are within 20-25 rwhp of each other. Factor in gas, weather, dyno, dyno operator, country, and you know that you can estimate what the car should dyno at but you never know what the number will be until the run is over.

You make a rational point when you responded "whose to say they arent already running in great air or have all the traction they need?" Of course, that could be the case, but I doubt the tune only (non-MHP) cars running low 12's have hit their best runs.

I'm not sure why you keep mentioning Powerchip like I'm comparing their tune to MHP's. I have spoken with them and they are extremly knowledgeable in their profession. I respect that and I was appreciative of the time they spent speaking with me on the phone.

I feel the same way about Andy and MHP, who spent time answering my questions and then sending me emails explaining his product.

Regarding whether our cars are easy to launch, I respectfully disagree. But, I haven't driven this car with DR's, so maybe that's the difference. Seems reasonable.

Another thing I haven't mentioned is that I don't think every person that wants a tune for this car places the 1/4 fast list as their number one priority. I don't. I respect the fastest times, but that's not what I'm interested in attaining in this particular car.

SonnyakaPig

Actually, I haven't listened to any stance. I've made my own stance. And I am suspect about the mere fact that there is ambiguity about what parameters can be tuned for the trans and how that tuning can be accomplished.

I understand trade secrets and all, but I'm not asking for the secret recipe, we're talking mechanics here. Where do you tune the trans and what parameters are changed? If MHP is truly the only company that has figured out how to raise the stall speed, than that is great and a real benefit to their customers who want that done.

I would just like to know if you can currently do that through the ECU. If so, great.

RStevens63

That is exactly why I dont like or trust dynos. Ive seen two cars lay down darn near the same numbers and then race and based on the dynos youd have never guessed it would be so one sided. Andy made a good point about this and dynos in general and that was that there isnt teh same kind of real world air flow on the dyno that you would see in fourth or fifth gear at the track or on the street. Without air the motor will add fuel and pull timing this isnt just mercedes or german cars but all cars.

Its not racing thats so important, well to some hehe but not to everyone I understand but if the goal is to make the most power youre also going to win races. MPH seems to place emphasis on racing though your right about that.

Talk to the guys that run drag radials and ask them what they have to say about how easy it is to launch with them. I agree on stock tires forgettabout it! These cars should come with 285s in rear minimum I think!

RStevens63

Sorry if I took your posts the wrong way, powerchip has just put a very bad taste in my mouth with this thread. Just like you have talked to Andy they can as well, and MPH is welcoming them to have a discussion on the BMW forum where they can both post.
I know something about cars but not what your asking so please ask the man directly thats all Im saying. also keep in mind that MHP would have to be stupid to flat out tell another tuner how they did something but im sure Andy will explain anything you ask him however as hes done for me.

ok my fingers are broken from typing good nite!!

SonnyakaPig

No worries. And thank you for the suggestion.

Good night to you too. Nice chatting.

And I agree 100%, these cars needed more rubber in the back for sure. 285's minimum.

MRAMG1

WOW, can I have my hour of life back