LynnBilodeau

First hiccup with this magnificent beast.
https://mbworld.org/forums/cl-class-...ml#post6404569
Figured it would come sooner or later, and have planned accordingly. I normally do all my own maintence and repair. I am above average when it comes to auto repari, having worked on hundreds of Bimmers, and even a couple of Ferraris as well as all my classics from Studebaker to a Vanden Plas Princess (British Limo), so I am not easily intimadated.

Got a sudden loss of power and a "CHECK ENGINE" light on the way home this evening.

Just plugged in the scanner. 7 codes. One for each of the cylinders 7-12 misfiring, and one for multicylinder misfire (duh!).

Anyway, I am assuming this is EITHER the 7-12 coil pack or the coil controller. I don't normally "throw parts" at a car unless it is REALLY cheap and easy. Pretty sure nothing on this car is either.

My understanding is that there are some tests (voltage, ohms etc.) that can be done on the controller and maybe the coil pack to see which one is bad.

Is there an outline of those procedures documented anywhere?

Also, pretty dumb question, but which side (driver or passenger) is the 7-12 bank?
Also, does this car have two separate fuel pumps? Is there a code for insufficient fuel pressure? If there are separate fuel pumps and one quit, that would affect that bank.


Thanks in advance for any help.

LynnBilodeau

One other thing: In reading up on this, it appears a coil pack is most likely to fail during or after a full throttle blast. About 10 seconds before this happened I had floored it to make a yellow light.

Welwynnick

LB, it's a pleasure to write to a fellow owner who can look after their own car. V12TT's are both rewarding and challenging, but everything is DIY possible for reasonable money. They have the usual W220 issues, so nothing to lose sleep over there (as long as you clean out the heater inlet plenum drain). However, they're also infamous for coil pack and ABC problems.

The traditional way to fix a coil pack is to pull the DTC codes, then replace the failing coil pack with a new one from a discount retailer. No way about it, they're expensive, and the only major expense I've incurred on any of my four S600's.

However, I've just had a similar problem with my right hand coil pack (driver's perspective) which is 1 - 6 misfire. I removed and stripped the coil pack, and saw four coils that were visibly damaged. I replaced those with good coils froma bad coil pack (sat in my garage for three years). Its now running perfectly, and I have few poor quality pictures to illustrate.

Frustratingly, I was never able to find ANY electrical measurement that would identify a bad coil. You just have to look at them very closely. They simply overheat and burnout from the inside, and hard driving makes it all the more likely. Of course there are other things that fail, but I think that's the dominant failure pattern. You can get individual new MotorKing coils via online retailers (search for Mercedes ignition cassette) , or you can buy a "bad" coil pack and cherry-pick the good coils. Both methods work. Alternatively, you can get it repaired.

While the coil pack is out, replace all the spark plugs. NGK IFR6Q-G or Bosch FR7KPP33U. Make sure the gaps are set to 0.7mm, not 1.0mm.

Take care, its easy to damage wires, pipes, sensors, threads and the coil packs themselves, and the plastic covers are fragile.

The usual recommendation is to replace the red insulators that go between the plugs and the coil screens/tubes. You should at least clean and inspect them.

Beautiful car by the way. Look after that baby! Bottomless pit of support around here.

Good luck, Nick

https://mbworld.org/forums/s-class-w220/431985-ongoing-maintenance-repair-2003-s600.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/m275-v12-bi-turbo-platform/343987-v12-bi-turbo-car-spark-plug-replacement.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/s-class-w220/342824-w220-s-class-owners-start-here.html
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220-s-class/1508080-w220-s-class-encyclopedia-start-here.html
http://mercedes-abc-drive-carefully.blogspot.co.uk/
http://www.v12icpack.com/
https://w220.ee/

LynnBilodeau

Thanks so much Nick.

I did notice the dash lights very slightly flickering a few minutes before the CE light came on. I think I will check the alternator output to make sure I am getting steady voltage. I also found an old post that indicated the coil controller NORMALLY will affect both sides if it goes.

I live 3 blocks from an O'Reilly's parts store. Driver's side (left for us guys on this side of the pond) coil pack is a little over $800 USD.... and it comes with a lifetime guarantee. Plan to go order this morning. I am in that store so often, I am often asked which repair shop I own in town!!!!

I will definitely inspect to see if I can tell which coils are bad. I have the complete service history from this car, and will check to see if the plugs have been changed. If not, I will take care of that at the same time as you suggest.

Thanks.

LynnBilodeau

I ordered the Bosch plugs.
Ordered the coil pack from O'Reilly's and paid in advance. Unfortunately, it is on back order. They don't have a time frame.

Reviewed this paragraph from Nick's post above:

However, I've just had a similar problem with my right hand coil pack (driver's perspective) which is 1 - 6 misfire. I removed and stripped the coil pack, and saw four coils that were visibly damaged. I replaced those with good coils from a bad coil pack (sat in my garage for three years). Its now running perfectly, and I have few poor quality pictures to illustrate.

I take it that means I can disassemble the coil pack. Is there any chance someone sells individual coils? Kind of like what is available for the earlier V12, like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ignition-Coi...hVRyLu&vxp=mtr

I see rebuilders advertising, so they must be getting parts from SOMEWHERE.

I may have a line on some used ones, but hate going that way.

Any help is appreciated.

tusabes

Here are the individual coils for sale http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00MB0...uML&ref=plSrch

LynnBilodeau

This kit offers coils and mosfets for one side, but includes 12 Denso plugs. I have no use for the Denso plugs.


Over $600 with shipping.

For $699, these guys claim to replace all coils and mosfets:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321983735349?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Anyone have any experience with those guys?

Will keep you guys posted; good bad or ugly.

Welwynnick

I'd much rather have a new coil pack for 800 than a repaired one for 700.


nick

LynnBilodeau

I agree 100%. Still hoping O'Reilly's comes through. The manufacturer was closed down yesterday because of snow storms.

henryc

Lynn- These can also be purchased from other on line sources if O'Reilly's cannot supply.
Shop around, though- prices vary widely and some offer free shipping. I'm always amazed at what I find for my cars on Amazon.com- using manufacturers part numbers.
/henryc

henryc

Forgot to add- these ignition coils are also known as:
LH bank (as standing behind the car) UF578
RH bank (as standing behind the car) UF579

Try also UF-578 or UF-579.....also available on Amazon, but not for $800.00USD. Also check for oil in your connector to the ignition coil. You should also pull off the connector at the coil controller on top of the engine. If you see wet in the connector, clean with electronic spray and dry out. The oil is coming from the oil sensor near the LH cyl head- the oil travels along the cable harness to connectors. I can give more detail if you have this issue- just let me know.
/HenryC

LynnBilodeau

Thanks much Henry. We have been driving the Bimmer, so not in a huge hurry on this. I didn't want to start disassembly until I got parts, so I have no idea if there is oil in the connector, but will certainly check that out and report back.

On top of not having parts I came down with the flu last week and am just now getting back on my feet. Hopefully I will get to this before the end of the week. Also have a lot of parts piling up for my 68 El Camino project, so really wanting to get down there and work, ... just don't want to relapse. Taking it easy another day or two.

biker349

had a misfire issue and it turned out to be the ignition module, transformer on top of the engine. sometimes you get internal shorts. pretty easy to replace, but i'm not sure how to check it for problems.

ItalianJoe1

Related question:

I often get misfires, hard starting/stalling, general rough running after a hot soak restart. I assume the original coils on my '03 are near the end of their useful life. I do plan to tune the car which seems to kill them quicker anyway, so I have no problem changing them if need be, will give me an excuse to dig in there and fix the leaky valve covers and add some new plugs.

Does the heat soaking into the coils explain the poor restart? Or could it be the ICM or some other issue? It's usually only apparent after some very "spirited" driving, or if I leave the car for about 30-40 min (say I go eat dinner). If I stop for fuel it always restarts fine, and when it's cooled down it hasn't acted up.

Thoughts?

tusabes

That sounds more like a bad cps

henryc

You might benefit from a reading of the OBDII codes your car may stored using a better than basic reader that was manufactured in the last couple of years that will have the ability to read OBDII CANbus electrical systems. The early OBDII readers from the 1990's won't read the codes from your car because that old reader can't read CANbus. Using the stored codes in your car will provide a diagnostic map to follow as an aid to troubleshoot your issue. It could be as simple as worn out spark plugs or the wrong spark plugs. /HenryC

ItalianJoe1

All codes are misfires. Not a bad cps, I know what those do when they fail. It starts but feels like its running on one bank until it clears up. Diagnostics done with SDS, nothing aside from misfires.

henryc

Diagnostics with SDS- ......do you know what cylinders are the misfires?
Or 'random'....? If random misfire, SDS should tell you what cylinders are misfiring and in what sequence. When were spark plugs changed last? And correct plugs used?
Good luck with resolution of this issue.
/henryc

ItalianJoe1

Had the p0300 random, and cyl specific on #1,2,7,9 IIRC. But I clear them when i'm in there and haven't kept track.

The maintenance history is unknown to me, i've only had the car for 3 months. The coils are original and the car has 74k on it, so it's probably got the original plugs. I'm assuming i'm gonna need coils once I tune it anyway, so i'm preparing my rectum to absorb the shock of two coils and 24 (24!) spark plugs, as I said it will also give me a chance to re-seal my leaky valve covers.

I just don't want to do all of that and still have a hot-soak misfire issue from fuel or ICM problems. If someone else has had an issue the previous experience would be much appreciated.

tusabes

Might as well change the Ignition transformer first , it might rule out the coils and plugs, and since you're doing the coils and plugs prior to tune, you should also do the transformer so everyting is 100% for the tune

Remember oreilly and autozone offer lifetime warranty on the coils and it's the same part you'll get from mb

ItalianJoe1

Has anyone had any experience with the Programa rebuilds? They are local and they have done other things for me with good results, when I asked he said the parts to rebuild the coils are inconsistent so they stopped offering the service, but still rebuild the ICM. I just don't know if their rebuild will cover whatever the cause of the hot soak issue as well as a new one would.

LynnBilodeau

Here is the update.
My very first inclination here was ignition module. After all, all 6 cylinders misfired ALL AT ONCE. I drove less than two miles after it acted up, and put my scanner on it. 7 codes, one for each cyl, and one misc multiple engine misfire. Seemed to me very odd that all 6 would take a dump at once.
Read somewhere that the module rarely causes just one bank to go out. So, started looking at the coils.

Because O'Reilly's was (and still is) back ordered, I bought a used coil pack for $190. It had been tested and working, then sold. The buyer sent it back stating it had misfires on two cylinders, but couldn't say which two. Sounded fishy, so I took a chance even though it was being sold as a core. For $190 figured I could use if for parts if nothing else. Last Sat. I removed driver's side coil pack. Looked absolutely brand new. I am certain it isn't original to the car. The used one I bought had yellow inspection paint on each screw. The one that was in my car did not. Figured, WTH, I want to replace plugs anyway. So, replaced 12 driver's side plugs and installed the used coil pack.
Immediately the CE light came on and I had the same 7 codes as before. Found a used control module on ebay for $300. Installed it today, and it runs perfectly. I am going to leave the used coil pack on that side, and keep my old one for a spare. Like I said, it looks brand new.

One bad note. I normally unhook the battery when replacing electrical parts. Did that today. Unfortunately, I left the trunk lid down far enough, it fell and latched. Had to hook up an auxiliary battery to the lugs under the front carpet to get the trunk open. I was parked under another car, and barely had room to get the pass door open. Took me 45 seconds to change the module and another 45 minutes to get the trunk open.

Anyway, anyone who tells you the module can't just take out one side is simply wrong. I know a couple of you suggested the module, and I would have tried that first, but had already started looking for coils.

Anyway, I am happy with the final ending and will go cancel my order at O'Reilly's in the morning.

Thanks again for all the help. Hopefully this will be of help to someone else. OH, and one summary I read said you need a 12 point 5/16 (or 8mm) socket. Those screws are ETorx, not 12 point.

Over the weekend I will be changing the pass side plugs.

Dr Matt

On the Pass side plug change be careful with the vacuum hoses and especially the MAP sensor attached to the Pass side inter-cooler. Easy to break the plastic nipples.

LynnBilodeau

Thanks.

I also noticed when taking the charge pipe off on the left side that the crankcase ventilation hose going to it was a bit brittle. Think I will look into getting some new hoses under the hood. Back in the early 80's one of the BMW vendors used to sell a "hose kit" that included all of the under hood rubber hoses that went bad with age.

Don't suppose there is a Mercedes vendor doing something like that. Even the "y" hose going from the intercoolers to the throttle body was a bit hard.

LynnBilodeau

Hopefully the last update for this issue. Drove it fairly hard yesterday, just to make sure all was well. Ended up with misfire on 7, 9, 10. So, since I was planning to replace the right side plugs today anyway, took both sides apart and put the old coil set back in on the left side.

Had some oil leaking from the RH valve cover. Checked the bolts, and every one was loose. I could have left it apart and replaced the valve cover, but was anxious to see if the old coils would work fine with the new module. Absolutely no oil leak in the left side valve cover, and all of those bolts were good and tight. So, decided to just tighten up the ones on the RH side. I will keep an eye on it, and replace if needed.

Got the plugs changed and everything back together without any issues. Running fine and no CEL. Time will tell. Went ahead and canceled my order at O'Reilly's for the new coil set. I am 100% certain both sides have been replaced before.