Kleemann vs AMS headers
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From: Central Connecticut
86 190D (Exported to the Nerderlands), 87 300TD (Sold), 82 Ford F150 3spd, 99 E300D (RIP), 02 E55
Kleemann vs AMS headers
I do not want to write this on Cory's thread as that is his thread. I would like to get headers for my car. I know the Kleemann's are the longer headers vs the short AMS ones. As far as performance wise, I believe, both would put out conservatively at the least 15 to 20 more horse then stock and this is with the resonator delete and x-pipe. Also, the difference on the price is around $200ish including shipping.
My question is, with the kleemann headers, how difficult is it, to get the ECU adapt to the headers. What can you do to fix the ECU so as not to get a CEL when you turn the engine on. Can you hook up the O2 sensors to the down pipe? I notice, in the picture that Cory send on his thread that the down pipes on both sides have the plugs for the O2 sensors. Basically, the primary cat on both sides (the cats closest to the headers) will be replace by just a down pipe from Kleemann. If I can get someone to explain to me, for those of you that had the Kleemann headers installed, how to program the ECU as not to get a CEL and also, the plug on the down pipes would fit the original O2 sensors, I would appreciate. From the picture, I bet the engine will sound different with the Kleemann headers as the exhaust flow is much easier without the primary cats.
I think as far as welding goes, for the Kleemann, Cory mention that the diameter is the same as the OEM pipes hence no modifications for the welding to the secondary cats and the rest of the exhaust.
The AMS headers are the easiers and will not require any modifications at all. I believe for the Cali folks....these are the headers for you as the primary cats are still there and these just replace the OEM headers.
My question is, with the kleemann headers, how difficult is it, to get the ECU adapt to the headers. What can you do to fix the ECU so as not to get a CEL when you turn the engine on. Can you hook up the O2 sensors to the down pipe? I notice, in the picture that Cory send on his thread that the down pipes on both sides have the plugs for the O2 sensors. Basically, the primary cat on both sides (the cats closest to the headers) will be replace by just a down pipe from Kleemann. If I can get someone to explain to me, for those of you that had the Kleemann headers installed, how to program the ECU as not to get a CEL and also, the plug on the down pipes would fit the original O2 sensors, I would appreciate. From the picture, I bet the engine will sound different with the Kleemann headers as the exhaust flow is much easier without the primary cats.
I think as far as welding goes, for the Kleemann, Cory mention that the diameter is the same as the OEM pipes hence no modifications for the welding to the secondary cats and the rest of the exhaust.
The AMS headers are the easiers and will not require any modifications at all. I believe for the Cali folks....these are the headers for you as the primary cats are still there and these just replace the OEM headers.
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From: Los Angeles
W210 E55
My suspicion is that both headers will give about the same gain, with the Kleeman giving a little more. The Kleeman will yield incrementally more if the secondary cats are deleted or other power mods are added. The resonator/X-pipe mod is mainly for sound.
If you are looking for the best bang for the buck, the AMS headers are probably it.
Further, I read that the primary cats are metallic and already flow very well while the secondaries are ceramic and are the biggest restriction in the overall system followed by the manifolds.
Edit: Some here, who probably have better knowledge, state the primary cats are ceramic. I'll look into this and report back unless someone else can positively settle.
If you are looking for the best bang for the buck, the AMS headers are probably it.
Further, I read that the primary cats are metallic and already flow very well while the secondaries are ceramic and are the biggest restriction in the overall system followed by the manifolds.
Edit: Some here, who probably have better knowledge, state the primary cats are ceramic. I'll look into this and report back unless someone else can positively settle.
Last edited by Schweinhund; Jan 23, 2012 at 05:38 PM.
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Joined: Apr 2011
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From: Central Connecticut
86 190D (Exported to the Nerderlands), 87 300TD (Sold), 82 Ford F150 3spd, 99 E300D (RIP), 02 E55
My suspicion is that both headers will give about the same gain, with the Kleeman giving a little more. The Kleeman will yield incrementally more if the secondary cats are deleted or other power mods are added. The resonator/X-pipe mod is mainly for sound.
If you are looking for the best bang for the buck, the AMS headers are probably it.
Further, I read that the primary cats are metallic and already flow very well while the secondaries are ceramic and are the biggest restriction in the overall system followed by the manifolds.
If you are looking for the best bang for the buck, the AMS headers are probably it.
Further, I read that the primary cats are metallic and already flow very well while the secondaries are ceramic and are the biggest restriction in the overall system followed by the manifolds.
Its good to know that the OEM primaries are metalic. So, to get the best out of the set up, I would say the AMS headers plus secondary cat delete and I don't have to deal with the CEL.
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CLK55
I would go with the kleemanns, gains will be much greater. To get rid of the CEL you can just ship your ECU out to Cory for like $100 and have him program it out while still being emissions ready or I think you can get aftermarket cats and extend rear o2s behind them.
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From: PNW
2001 E430
The stock exhaust manifolds are so crappy that any header has to be an improvement but I gotta think the Kleemann's will out perform the AMS headers.
AMS has it's benefits like being bolt in with no welding, no modification of the downpipes and cats, less chance of CEL, and probably a whole lot easier to pass a visual smog inspection. The downside of AMS is they still leave the crappy stock downpipes in place.
With Kleemann's price drop I think I would have a hard time picking AMS over Kleemann if I didn't have to endure a visual inspection. The stock down pipes appear really restrictive and the Kleemann's are a lot smoother and larger in diameter.
Kleemann should be able to turn off your CEL and force tune the readiness. I had them do this for my car. I passed the OBD2 emissions test.
You can see in the pic how the exhaust has to make an "S" turn right after the manifolds and then another 90 degree turn right after the cat.
The drivers side downtube necks down right under the floorboards restricting flow
Closeup of restriction
AMS has it's benefits like being bolt in with no welding, no modification of the downpipes and cats, less chance of CEL, and probably a whole lot easier to pass a visual smog inspection. The downside of AMS is they still leave the crappy stock downpipes in place.
With Kleemann's price drop I think I would have a hard time picking AMS over Kleemann if I didn't have to endure a visual inspection. The stock down pipes appear really restrictive and the Kleemann's are a lot smoother and larger in diameter.
Kleemann should be able to turn off your CEL and force tune the readiness. I had them do this for my car. I passed the OBD2 emissions test.
You can see in the pic how the exhaust has to make an "S" turn right after the manifolds and then another 90 degree turn right after the cat.
The drivers side downtube necks down right under the floorboards restricting flow
Closeup of restriction
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From: Socal, Chino
E55 2006 / CLS55 / S450 / Jag XKR2011
First of all, Cory won't charge you $100 for re-programming. If you buy Header from him, its free. I paid more because I wanted a real Kleemann ECU tune.
Kleemann will give more Hp vs AMS. ( i think by 10hp easy) K header is close to long header compare to the shorties.
Kleemann will always be there for service and AMS is changing ownership so not sure about their future service and warranty if anything happen.
K is much more reputable and Cory answer email in very short of time. My ECU was tune in 1 day and send back in next morning. Fast and good service. If you already going to do Header, do it right with the better hp.
Plus, if you sell your car one day, K header will be a plus compare to AMS brand. You better check the ECU version if Cory can reprogram. If its OK, I would say go for Kleemann and tune the car in the same time. He will give you a great price for tune. I was going with EC tune but i rather with Kleemann, much safer.
Kleemann will give more Hp vs AMS. ( i think by 10hp easy) K header is close to long header compare to the shorties.
Kleemann will always be there for service and AMS is changing ownership so not sure about their future service and warranty if anything happen.
K is much more reputable and Cory answer email in very short of time. My ECU was tune in 1 day and send back in next morning. Fast and good service. If you already going to do Header, do it right with the better hp.
Plus, if you sell your car one day, K header will be a plus compare to AMS brand. You better check the ECU version if Cory can reprogram. If its OK, I would say go for Kleemann and tune the car in the same time. He will give you a great price for tune. I was going with EC tune but i rather with Kleemann, much safer.
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From: Los Angeles
W210 E55
First of all, Cory won't charge you $100 for re-programming. If you buy Header from him, its free. I paid more because I wanted a real Kleemann ECU tune.
Kleemann will give more Hp vs AMS. ( i think by 10hp easy) K header is close to long header compare to the shorties.
Kleemann will always be there for service and AMS is changing ownership so not sure about their future service and warranty if anything happen.
K is much more reputable and Cory answer email in very short of time. My ECU was tune in 1 day and send back in next morning. Fast and good service. If you already going to do Header, do it right with the better hp.
Plus, if you sell your car one day, K header will be a plus compare to AMS brand. You better check the ECU version if Cory can reprogram. If its OK, I would say go for Kleemann and tune the car in the same time. He will give you a great price for tune. I was going with EC tune but i rather with Kleemann, much safer.
Kleemann will give more Hp vs AMS. ( i think by 10hp easy) K header is close to long header compare to the shorties.
Kleemann will always be there for service and AMS is changing ownership so not sure about their future service and warranty if anything happen.
K is much more reputable and Cory answer email in very short of time. My ECU was tune in 1 day and send back in next morning. Fast and good service. If you already going to do Header, do it right with the better hp.
Plus, if you sell your car one day, K header will be a plus compare to AMS brand. You better check the ECU version if Cory can reprogram. If its OK, I would say go for Kleemann and tune the car in the same time. He will give you a great price for tune. I was going with EC tune but i rather with Kleemann, much safer.
1. If the smog guy actually looks under the car (not to worried, not a big deal).
2. If it doesn't pass with the high flow aftermarket converter (then I am screwed).
Have you done this?
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 553
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From: Los Angeles
W210 E55
The stock exhaust manifolds are so crappy that any header has to be an improvement but I gotta think the Kleemann's will out perform the AMS headers.
AMS has it's benefits like being bolt in with no welding, no modification of the downpipes and cats, less chance of CEL, and probably a whole lot easier to pass a visual smog inspection. The downside of AMS is they still leave the crappy stock downpipes in place.
With Kleemann's price drop I think I would have a hard time picking AMS over Kleemann if I didn't have to endure a visual inspection. The stock down pipes appear really restrictive and the Kleemann's are a lot smoother and larger in diameter.
Kleemann should be able to turn off your CEL and force tune the readiness. I had them do this for my car. I passed the OBD2 emissions test.
You can see in the pic how the exhaust has to make an "S" turn right after the manifolds and then another 90 degree turn right after the cat.
The drivers side downtube necks down right under the floorboards restricting flow
Closeup of restriction
AMS has it's benefits like being bolt in with no welding, no modification of the downpipes and cats, less chance of CEL, and probably a whole lot easier to pass a visual smog inspection. The downside of AMS is they still leave the crappy stock downpipes in place.
With Kleemann's price drop I think I would have a hard time picking AMS over Kleemann if I didn't have to endure a visual inspection. The stock down pipes appear really restrictive and the Kleemann's are a lot smoother and larger in diameter.
Kleemann should be able to turn off your CEL and force tune the readiness. I had them do this for my car. I passed the OBD2 emissions test.
You can see in the pic how the exhaust has to make an "S" turn right after the manifolds and then another 90 degree turn right after the cat.
The drivers side downtube necks down right under the floorboards restricting flow
Closeup of restriction
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From: Socal, Chino
E55 2006 / CLS55 / S450 / Jag XKR2011
SoCal Chino? Have you done the Kleeman? That's the one I would want but I am leery of going that rout and putting in aftermarket high-flow metallic primaries (relocating the O2) for two reasons:
1. If the smog guy actually looks under the car (not to worried, not a big deal).
2. If it doesn't pass with the high flow aftermarket converter (then I am screwed).
Have you done this?
1. If the smog guy actually looks under the car (not to worried, not a big deal).
2. If it doesn't pass with the high flow aftermarket converter (then I am screwed).
Have you done this?
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From: Los Angeles
W210 E55
I have done with my W211 E55 last month. And had Kleemann to tune my ECU so no Check engine light. I don't plan to upgrade my W210 since already spend $$$ in W211. (Just spent $800 in tires, $700 rotors/pad for W210). So far my W210 will keep in stock which is pretty fast already. As Cory mentioned, better give him your ECU version to make sure if he can reprogram it. If NOT able to reprogram so forget about it. You won't pass smog. To install the header is not difficult. Just find a exhaust shop to do it. Don't go to any indy shop because many don't do small welding. To installed is about $300 to $400 for a exhaust shop. Plus, they can ECU tune your car for a great price if you buy the Header and the tune will be custom tune with Header.
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86 190D (Exported to the Nerderlands), 87 300TD (Sold), 82 Ford F150 3spd, 99 E300D (RIP), 02 E55
What I got from Cory's thread was that the diameter is the same as the original. Maybe due to the stainless steel, the pipes looks bigger in his picture. If the pipes are the same size, I don't see any difference in power as only the primary cats are the only difference between the AMS and the Kleemann. I seriously don't think a exhaust shop could take the headers off and put in the Kleemann or the AMS. I would take it to the idie mercedes repair shop and have them put the headers in. It's very hard to find a shop which specialized in both welding and replacing the headers.
Last edited by snooozie; Jan 24, 2012 at 11:11 PM. Reason: add more
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W210 E55
It's what I meant by bang for the buck. AMS is $200 cheaper and no welding. The Kleeman will give you maybe 5 more HP - out of 350+HP. Even if it gave 10 more, that's a 3% improvement over AMS. Is that worth $200 plus welding charges not to mention a cut up exhaust. Sure if you add nitrous, a supercharger, or some other device that adds drastic power, the Kleeman will really start to show its superiority but at near stock power levels, I'm not sure.
Last edited by Schweinhund; Jan 24, 2012 at 11:19 PM.
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From: Socal, Chino
E55 2006 / CLS55 / S450 / Jag XKR2011
What I got from Cory's thread was that the diameter is the same as the original. Maybe due to the stainless steel, the pipes looks bigger in his picture. If the pipes are the same size, I don't see any difference in power as only the primary cats are the only difference between the AMS and the Kleemann. I seriously don't think a exhaust shop could take the headers off and put in the Kleemann or the AMS. I would take it to the idie mercedes repair shop and have them put the headers in. It's very hard to find a shop which specialized in both welding and replacing the headers.
Doing header i recommend to do it in muffler/exhaust shop. Most indy shop don't have much experience in header/exhaust and don't do welding. Good luck either with Kleemann or AMS, your car will be stronger
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From: Central Connecticut
86 190D (Exported to the Nerderlands), 87 300TD (Sold), 82 Ford F150 3spd, 99 E300D (RIP), 02 E55
You are right. The guy that put the x-pipe in does good exhaust work. He was doing some work on an El Camino when I was there. I'll ask his input on the headers and chime in Cory about the tune on the ECU. I'll get a price on the whole package and let you guys know. I would imagine he would suggest the long headers vs the short ones. Does anybody knows how to unplug and take the ECU out.
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From: Central Connecticut
86 190D (Exported to the Nerderlands), 87 300TD (Sold), 82 Ford F150 3spd, 99 E300D (RIP), 02 E55
Last edited by snooozie; Feb 7, 2012 at 01:47 PM. Reason: link not post
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From: Bostonian Ma
2012 CLS63 AMG
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From: Central Connecticut
86 190D (Exported to the Nerderlands), 87 300TD (Sold), 82 Ford F150 3spd, 99 E300D (RIP), 02 E55
Sorry about that. Here's a picture of the C63 Kleemann Headers. What I'm trying to say is that, if Kleemann were to make the NA E55 headers today, it will look more like the AMS plug and play (bolt-on style) rather then the more complecated headers they have back in 1999.
Here are the headers of the Kleemann for C63....
Here are the headers of the Kleemann for C63....
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From: Socal, Chino
E55 2006 / CLS55 / S450 / Jag XKR2011
Sorry about that. Here's a picture of the C63 Kleemann Headers. What I'm trying to say is that, if Kleemann were to make the NA E55 headers today, it will look more like the AMS plug and play (bolt-on style) rather then the more complecated headers they have back in 1999.
Here are the headers of the Kleemann for C63....
Here are the headers of the Kleemann for C63....
Most of shorties are very similar in design. Keep in mind Kleemann W210 header was made for more than 10 years ago. There is reason why Kleemann has high reputation. I don't see how much different design can be for shorties except evosport one.
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From: Central Connecticut
86 190D (Exported to the Nerderlands), 87 300TD (Sold), 82 Ford F150 3spd, 99 E300D (RIP), 02 E55
Well folks, I went in the GPT website to try and order one tonight and to my disappointment the AMS headers are all sold out and gone for good....
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From: Socal, Chino
E55 2006 / CLS55 / S450 / Jag XKR2011
Kleemann bring more power and more reputable. One day if you sell, it might add value (not much). Just make sure if Cory can re-program your ECU. If he can then DO IT ! the sound will be louder and awesome ! My W211 RUNS strong and response Faster than before ! Maybe the SC belt change help but my car runs in Crazy mode all the time now ! At crank about 540Hp !
