When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I didn't want to muddy that thread with a Stage 2 variant of the tune.
What differentiates a Stage 1 from a Stage 2 tune? Simply the fact that a Stage 1 tune operates within the confines of the OEM hardware and doesn't require any supporting hardware mods to function safely.
The title of this thread is "EC Stage 2 Flex Fuel Tune" however.
What follows is the dyno plot from Jerry's development car running the full E85 setup.
Those of you follow my thread realize that my flex tune is hardware limited to E50 concentrations because my OEM fuel pump cannot deliver the necessary flow rate to safely go beyond that.
For comparison's sake, here my E50 dyno...
It's no slouch, making 680 awhp / 780 awtq tune only, without all the unnecessary supporting mods like intakes,. exhausts, etc. I still have to take the time to blend my fuels to get the necessary octane rating and ethanol content however. For me it's a no brainer.
There are those out there though that want the performance but don't want the hassle of mixing fuels. For my tune, the only alternative then was to run race gas if I wanted those performance numbers as a daily. I'm too cheap for that.
While Jerry was helping me create a Stage 1 flex fuel tune, he was really keen to see what it took to create a true Flex Fuel Tune that could accommodate full E85. It was evident from my tuning efforts that fueling was the Achilles heal that needed to be overcome if he was to realize true E85 capability.
What follows is, to the best of my knowledge, the only published dyno run of Jerry's W212 E63S running his Stage 2 Flex Fuel tune with a full tank of E85. To achieve this Jerry had to augment the fueling system with an upgraded fuel pump.
This dyno should spark plenty of discussion. These performance numbers are approaching BT numbers, and all from the addition of an inline pump and a tank of E85 (105 octane).
If you guys are interested in having the flexibility of one tune that switches between straight 93 octane fuel and straight E85 fuel, and don't mind augmenting your fueling system, then this Stage 2 file seems to tick all the boxes...
This is awesome !!! Again great work. I recently did a run and data log with a fellow member. I was running ms-109 mixed with c12 leaded fuel. I don’t have cats . C12 Has a Mon rating of 108 octane. Did multiple 3rd gear pulls intake temp never passed 113 degrees and started at 111. No knock, timing stayed at 13.5 without dropping and boost hit 32.5 at redline. I would love to test the flow tune using c12 to see how much timing this motor throws in when it sees this fuel. It’s not for everyone because after a while I’ll probably have to change o2 sensors. This would be great just for a real track day. Brutal experience awesome numbers and times with ethanol, I’d like to see how much we can push a really high octane.
The graphs are off. Power and torque should always cross at 5252 RPM. The before dyno plot, in blue, does not match the numbers on the chart. Interesting results when you just look at the torque and hp numbers. Would be nice to see the correct plots.
The graphs are off. Power and torque should always cross at 5252 RPM. The before dyno plot, in blue, does not match the numbers on the chart. Interesting results when you just look at the torque and hp numbers. Would be nice to see the correct plots.
yeah... I'm a stickler for that as well, as it throws off the curve display in my estimation. Two different scales are being used for torque and horsepower. This doesn't detract from the power being made however.
The numbers do match however...
I'll try and see about getting a dyno plot with equal scales...
This is awesome !!! Again great work. I recently did a run and data log with a fellow member. I was running ms-109 mixed with c12 leaded fuel. I don’t have cats . C12 Has a Mon rating of 108 octane. Did multiple 3rd gear pulls intake temp never passed 113 degrees and started at 111. No knock, timing stayed at 13.5 without dropping and boost hit 32.5 at redline. I would love to test the flow tune using c12 to see how much timing this motor throws in when it sees this fuel. It’s not for everyone because after a while I’ll probably have to change o2 sensors. This would be great just for a real track day. Brutal experience awesome numbers and times with ethanol, I’d like to see how much we can push a really high octane.
Did you install the tank under the fender or the front exchanger only?
Stock Front heat exchanger only. But I am doing a 70-30 distilled water to antifreeze mix. In both split cooling systems. I do have ams auxiliary rad for the engine coolant. I also spray pre meth injection but just to keep turbos efficiency a tad better.
Stock Front heat exchanger only. But I am doing a 70-30 distilled water to antifreeze mix. In both split cooling systems. I do have ams auxiliary rad for the engine coolant. I also spray pre meth injection but just to keep turbos efficiency a tad better.
Nice! I’m on LI, let me know when you guys go out next time.
This dyno should spark plenty of discussion. These performance numbers are approaching BT numbers, and all from the addition of an inline pump and a tank of E85 (105 octane).
If you guys are interested in having the flexibility of one tune that switches between straight 93 octane fuel and straight E85 fuel, and don't mind augmenting your fueling system, then this Stage 2 file seems to tick all the boxes...
This looks really good, for comparison here is a VP MS109 tune. Very simillar results. MS109 ~$12 a gallon. E85 ~$2.50 !! I would install a E85 content gauge just to be sure, around me the quality varies.
This looks really good, for comparison here is a VP MS109 tune. Very simillar results. MS109 ~$12 a gallon. E85 ~$2.50 !! I would install a E85 content gauge just to be sure, around me the quality varies.
to be fair tho e85 has an average of having 20-30% less mpg vs gas. So the dollar to dollar amount comparison isn’t fair. Also e85 is 105+ octane ms-109 is only 100 octane. I’m not against e85 at all, actually I’m excited. But definitely want to see a fair comparison of higher octane fuel and what this motor can handle over 105 octane and how much our fuel pump can handle pressure wise .
to be fair tho e85 has an average of having 20-30% less mpg vs gas. So the dollar to dollar amount comparison isn’t fair. Also e85 is 105+ octane ms-109 is only 100 octane. I’m not against e85 at all, actually I’m excited. But definitely want to see a fair comparison of higher octane fuel and what this motor can handle over 105 octane and how much our fuel pump can handle pressure wise .
I've seen the upper limit of what our fuel pumps can handle safely while testing the Stage 1 tune... with my stock hardware we could take the tune to E60, but backed it off to E50 for safety reasons.
I was occasionally experiencing fuel cut due to the cars inability to deliver the fuel at a rate demanded by the tune.
I'll go back through my logs to see if I can determine what that flow rate was.
If we could determine what that flow rate was for ethanol then we could use that flow rate number for gasoline.
How much power that would make would depend on a tune that could recognize it and adapt for it though.
What boost are the standard turbos at with E85? Also can the car do sustained runs or suffer from heat issues (is this car running meth to control that?).
What boost are the standard turbos at with E85? Also can the car do sustained runs or suffer from heat issues (is this car running meth to control that?).
cheers Jules
The E85 tune is running between 17 and 18 psi boost.
Jerry's car is running the AMS Cooling System
From the data logs I saw from his dyno session, the most he saw was an increase of 10 degrees under load during the dyno runs. This was really good! More importantly, the temps recovered really fast... faster than mine did.
I have not seen any quarter mile track logs but I suspect they will be equally good. E85 burns cooler than gasoline so I don't see temps being an issue either.
As a point of reference, my tune runs the same boost.. 17 to 18 psi, and I've got many multiples of data from the dyno and track to call upon. I have stock cooling though I do use water wetter. Under track conditions the max I saw was an increase in IAT's of 30 degrees at the end of the quarter mile run. I would see similar temp increases when on the dyno. I can only infer that Jerry's car would not experience any more increase in temps than he saw on the dyno owing to the superior cooling hardware his car has.
I think it would be good to take the vehicles to the next Texas Mile event and see what sustained boost over 26/28 seconds does to intake and exhaust temps.
Both cars are running stock exhaust with Cats, though Jerrys are HF Cats... mine are stock. That will only improve matters for him.
'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
Originally Posted by Cifdig
to be fair tho e85 has an average of having 20-30% less mpg vs gas. So the dollar to dollar amount comparison isn’t fair. Also e85 is 105+ octane ms-109 is only 100 octane. I’m not against e85 at all, actually I’m excited. But definitely want to see a fair comparison of higher octane fuel and what this motor can handle over 105 octane and how much our fuel pump can handle pressure wise .
mon is considered the real octane of a fuel being pushed under load in high temp high rpms. Using mon for testing new maps with more timing would be the smarter option, imo. I’ve never felt comfortable using r+m
'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
Originally Posted by Cifdig
mon is considered the real octane of a fuel being pushed under load in high temp high rpms. Using mon for testing new maps with more timing would be the smarter option, imo. I’ve never felt comfortable using r+m
Well since we’re both in the states as are most of the people in this discussion it’s more appropriate to use standard terminology (especially if you’re not going to specify otherwise) to avoid miscommunication.
Well since we’re both in the states as are most of the people in this discussion it’s more appropriate to use standard terminology (especially if you’re not going to specify otherwise) to avoid miscommunication.
yes agreed . My bad fellas lol. But yes if I remember correctly a lot of guys go off the mon rating, especially with top end power . Especially with boosted motors and adding timing. But it’s been a while maybe things have changed.
So to summarize all of this, since I'm lazy and don't want to read all 10+ pages from the other thread, what do I need to do to be able to run E85 safely?
'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
Originally Posted by diamondblak05
So to summarize all of this, since I'm lazy and don't want to read all 10+ pages from the other thread, what do I need to do to be able to run E85 safely?
I’d say at the minimum high and low pressure fuel pump upgrades, larger diameter fuel lines, an ethanol content sensor, and a proper tune with tons of data logging behind it.
I’d say at the minimum high and low pressure fuel pump upgrades, larger diameter fuel lines, an ethanol content sensor, and a proper tune with tons of data logging behind it.
Darn. I was hoping it would just be a tune and nothing else involved. With all the upgrades to run E85, can I still use premium fuel if I flash it back to stock?
'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
Originally Posted by diamondblak05
Darn. I was hoping it would just be a tune and nothing else involved. With all the upgrades to run E85, can I still use premium fuel if I flash it back to stock?
You won’t be able to flash back to “stock” with those fuel system upgrades but you could flash back to a 91 tune as long as your tuner provided one. Now if you get true flex fuel capabilities you could fill up with 91, E85, or anything in between and your tune will properly (and immediately without relying on knock) adapt to all of it.
Last edited by chiromikey; 12-13-2019 at 12:55 PM.
I'll let you know in a few days, I've ordered the hand held and the E85 tune. I've been told that the tune should run fine on stock hardware but the tune is a complete ECU rewrite. I'll know more this week how it performs. I won't however be able to get it onto a Dyno so ive no idea what figures they state will be correct.
Sorry if this is off topic but if you have a stock car, run E85 and a tune (with the supporting fuel upgrade) and make 700whp, how come you won't blow your cats but I've been told on a NA M156 E63, if you supercharge it, the highest safe power on stock cats and exhaust is ~600whp? .....
I’d say at the minimum high and low pressure fuel pump upgrades, larger diameter fuel lines, an ethanol content sensor, and a proper tune with tons of data logging behind it.
Originally Posted by Sebastian Bird
I'll let you know in a few days, I've ordered the hand held and the E85 tune. I've been told that the tune should run fine on stock hardware but the tune is a complete ECU rewrite. I'll know more this week how it performs. I won't however be able to get it onto a Dyno so ive no idea what figures they state will be correct.
Sebastian, you're saying that EC said the E85 tune is fine with a stock car and none of the mods that chiromikey suggested aren't necessary? Do let us know how the E85 tune on a stock car goes, as I'm definitely interested.
Sebastian, you're saying that EC said the E85 tune is fine with a stock car and none of the mods that chiromikey suggested aren't necessary? Do let us know how the E85 tune on a stock car goes, as I'm definitely interested.
Yes exactly, I've got the handheld I've sent them.my car software just waiting for the tune back now to put on the car. I'll keep everyone posted.
11-28-2019, 01:39 PM
