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My point I guess is this, if the engineers of this engine decided that only a soft code is necessary if the solenoid fails either way (open or closed), but one way is catastrophic (closed, low pressure), then logic would not prevail that failing the good way is absolutely no big deal since it's only a soft code.
but I also understand that check engine lights are more about emissions, not necessarily all derangements in the engine.
additionally, I'm not trying to work up this thread again about whether or not the solenoid disconnect is valuable, I have it disconnected, and I'm completely fine with it. I'm just wondering about the logic of the engine developers, not creating more of a brisk response to the solenoid, being defective, one way or another.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
@PeterUbers think about what influences decisions with any engineering design or manufacturing process.
Do seatbelts prolong engine life, reduce fuel consumption, reduce emissions, or simplify manufacturing? No! However, the "engineers" design every car to have seatbelts because there are non-technical/non-engineering drivers that force certain decisions, such as laws. Likewise, the drivers that required the engineers to squeeze out every milliliter of fuel efficiency has nothing to do with prolonging engine life, reducing cost, or simplify manufacturing, but rather "let's get another few feet per gallon of fuel efficiency so that we don't get fined by government agencies, such as the EPA."
Don't think for a moment that in the real world there is logic to all decisions other than if we don't do this or that, we be in big, heaping trouble.
If the solenoid is stuck closed - no CEL for many 157 engines and only soft code
if the solenoid is stuck closed - no CEL and only soft code
yet one of these is a catastrophic condition, correct? Tell me what I am not understanding.
The default position is open (spring loaded) meaning full pressure all the time. If the working solenoid is unplugged or the cabling is damaged, it should fail in an open state and generate a soft code.
If the solenoid is malfunctioning, it could fail closed (or more likely) between open and closed. This may or may not generate a code and would molt likely happen due to a mechanical fault (damage to the plunger or guide, debris in the housing and so on). This may not generate a code because the circuit is complete. This is where monitoring engine temperature (at least on the AMG cars) really comes into play - if you see a rise in temperature outside of the norm, then suspect a problem. Next steps would be to measure actual pressure at the filter housing either by tapping into the oil gallery or using an oil filter cap with a gauge adapter.
I do think that anyone contemplating running with the oil control solenoid should perform the due diligence of checking oil pressure prior to unplugging to make sure that oil control health is appropriate. If there’s a problem, you’ll want to correct it before moving forward with the modification - and at minimum to keep engine failures from being blamed on the mod. I can see it now… “I unplugged and my engine blew up!” No, your engine was already on the way there because the valve was hung up.
@PeterUbers think about what influences decisions with any engineering design or manufacturing process.
Do seatbelts prolong engine life, reduce fuel consumption, reduce emissions, or simplify manufacturing? No! However, the "engineers" design every car to have seatbelts because there are non-technical/non-engineering drivers that force certain decisions, such as laws. Likewise, the drivers that required the engineers to squeeze out every milliliter of fuel efficiency has nothing to do with prolonging engine life, reducing cost, or simplify manufacturing, but rather "let's get another few feet per gallon of fuel efficiency so that we don't get fined by government agencies, such as the EPA."
Don't think for a moment that in the real world there is logic to all decisions other than if we don't do this or that, we be in big, heaping trouble.
The logic is that it should fail open in a clean environment. But if there’s something that could jam it open/closed through a failure of the solenoid or debris in the gallery, then all bets are off.
This is new territory - for a hundred years these types of control devices were not used. We had springs and check valves. When you incorporate electrical parts inside the engine to operate something so critical to the longevity of the engine, you’re really playing a game of Russian roulette. We’ve come a long way - but we haven’t come that far, not in my opinion anyway.
@PeterUbers thsqueeze out every milliliter of fuel efficiency has nothing to do with prolonging engine life.
I used to make quite a bit of money renting out exhaust systems (with Cat/02)...3000GT VR4 and 997 Porsche Turbo....install em, get your city sticker, take em off.......THANK GOD I am no longer in the Chicago area.
What gets me is that these cars have no oil pressure sensor! If your going to mess with oil pressure like they do with these solenoids, It's always trying to "calculate" the oil pressure or whats expected when its on and off as it'll effect things in little ways like the timing through cam actuators.
So yeah If it fails open, The ecm wont throw a code because it does not know, It'll continue to energize the solenoid all the same and never know that the oil pressure is low all the time. Of course if it failed closed... lifes fine. The code it's self only sets if the solenoid its self fails, like open, or shorted. It really has no idea what's what otherwise. Like as a engine wears or oil pressure changes that's going to change how much oil is actually being outputted as well when it thinks it is.
Just a bummer all around lol. I also have mine unplugged now.
The solenoid fails open/full pressure. When the solenoid is energized, it pulls the plunger into the housing and restricts pressure. The hope is that the solenoid doesn’t fail in-motion and stick. The spring should force it to fail open. MB had the right idea in making sure it fails open but the trouble is that it can jam up and lead to a lubrication-based failure. How many of these have failed and caused catastrophic destruction is an unknown, but it’s safe to say that it has - if only from a likelihood standpoint.
Agreed on the issue of not monitoring oil pressure. Many engine programs use the absence of oil pressure to cutoff fuel in the event of engine shutdown as a safety measure. I have this on my boat engines that use electric fuel pumps. I guess Bosch/Mercedes do this a different way. Maybe just a switch that we’re unaware of? The ECU wouldn’t have to monitor actual pressure. Instead, it would rely on a preset switch that shuts it down. So far, no one has mentioned this capability, and I haven’t figured out Xentry enough to go looking.
Some of my hi-perf boat friends say that oil pressure isn’t necessary to watch. Engine coolant, water pressure (boat engines are cooled via the water they run in), and oil temperature are more critical than oil pressure. Acceptable bearing temperatures and heat dissipation are most important especially when you’re running for miles at a time spinning 5500 rpm.
Would be quite useful if some tuners dropped in here to give us some more detailed information on what the ECU is truly looking at.
I think we have a difference in experience between the TURBO vs. NormAspirated engines.
It may have something to do with the way blow-by is managed by specialized PCV + ECU code.
Turbo ECU reacts to pressure
NA ECU reacts to vacuum
MOD2.1 decrease blow-by pressure
-- NA intake plenum only sees cylinders vacuum that happens to be offset by positive crankcase blow-by pressure.
-- Turbo intake plenum is all about boosted positive pressure forced feeding air the mixed with more gas. Virtual volume on demand.
-- When normal cylinder oiling seals the piston rings, the difference in turbo engine yields a different experience as far as low RPM torque is concerned.
Worned engines with uncontrollable blow-by only benefit from MOD2 piston cooling and the relative safety of a MOD1 closed solenoid.
> MOD2.1 Delivers as tested:
Cools pistons
Lubricate cylinder walls
Clean rings carbon
seal rings surfaces
minimize blow-by
preserves oil unburned
preserve valve stem carbon
prevent CPS "OIL-IN-HARNESS"
Times the HPFP/ Diesel style GDI Idle
renders timings exact
Stable performance unaffected by Temps.
> SIZZLING TX NEEDS OILING:
The good folks of Texas in summer heat will appreciate oil performance remaining stable with working heat transfers. When oil gets hot VVT RPM goes up higher - - - that is what MOD2.1 fixes.
If I had my way I would provide honest reliable cheap oil pressure regulation from a simple cheap gear pump.
Single-rate with a dumper secured by a gate and "limp-mode"
-- Bosch can regulate the radiator fan speed but not oil pressure... LOL
-- Continental valvebody conductor plate pulses ATF Pressure seriously well to speed frictions and slow down brakes. There's a tremendous amount of intelligence in controlling gear box pressure solenoids.
-- PumpSolenoid having ZERO SECURITY killing engines is bottom of the barrel is a little bit unfit. All that to keep pistons dry because that's better!!
LOL
E-Mode for ECO:
Why didn't they attack the fuel delivery instead to save real gasoline. Instead the new engine simulates an old clunker:
reduced compressions
leaky rings
low oil pressure
scored cylinders
Unsealed timing cover
Is that performance... really???
> Q: how to train engine maps to benefit from normalized intake pressures: redo ADAPTATIONS OF .... impacted by .... to get ....
okay
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 04-04-2024 at 03:54 AM.
The solenoid fails open/full pressure. When the solenoid is energized, it pulls the plunger into the housing and restricts pressure. The hope is that the solenoid doesn’t fail in-motion and stick. The spring should force it to fail open. MB had the right idea in making sure it fails open but the trouble is that it can jam up and lead to a lubrication-based failure. How many of these have failed and caused catastrophic destruction is an unknown, but it’s safe to say that it has - if only from a likelihood standpoint.
Agreed on the issue of not monitoring oil pressure. Many engine programs use the absence of oil pressure to cutoff fuel in the event of engine shutdown as a safety measure. I have this on my boat engines that use electric fuel pumps. I guess Bosch/Mercedes do this a different way. Maybe just a switch that we’re unaware of? The ECU wouldn’t have to monitor actual pressure. Instead, it would rely on a preset switch that shuts it down. So far, no one has mentioned this capability, and I haven’t figured out Xentry enough to go looking.
Some of my hi-perf boat friends say that oil pressure isn’t necessary to watch. Engine coolant, water pressure (boat engines are cooled via the water they run in), and oil temperature are more critical than oil pressure. Acceptable bearing temperatures and heat dissipation are most important especially when you’re running for miles at a time spinning 5500 rpm.
Would be quite useful if some tuners dropped in here to give us some more detailed information on what the ECU is truly looking at.
Unfortunately engines get toasted. I can't say there is some fail safe or think of one around these, the fail safe really is the oil pressure sensor. Even other vehicles that don't monitor PRESSURE, they usually have a Switch so if pressure was lost It'll at least throw the light and warnings on the dash. these don't even have that as far as i know...?
There are many things to watch but even on a boat oil pressure is very importan.t. while yes running under a constant load and throttle makes for hot oil, which in turn lowers oil pressure, To say that oil pressure isn't necessary to watch, Is right and wrong, It's a must have to have some sort of way to see but we don't watch it or look at it, it's more of a yep i got oil pressure, good to go. Obviously low pressure is not good either, that'll toast a engine slowly over a long time. But otherwise yes you'd be monitoring the oil temp far more than pressure as that's what's going to be changing and same with engine running temp. But oil pressure is still an important thing to see or know.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by Octan3
Unfortunately engines get toasted. I can't say there is some fail safe or think of one around these, the fail safe really is the oil pressure sensor. Even other vehicles that don't monitor PRESSURE, they usually have a Switch so if pressure was lost It'll at least throw the light and warnings on the dash. these don't even have that as far as i know...?
There are many things to watch but even on a boat oil pressure is very importan.t. while yes running under a constant load and throttle makes for hot oil, which in turn lowers oil pressure, To say that oil pressure isn't necessary to watch, Is right and wrong, It's a must have to have some sort of way to see but we don't watch it or look at it, it's more of a yep i got oil pressure, good to go. Obviously low pressure is not good either, that'll toast a engine slowly over a long time. But otherwise yes you'd be monitoring the oil temp far more than pressure as that's what's going to be changing and same with engine running temp. But oil pressure is still an important thing to see or know.
However, as @S-Prihadi has pointed out above, the majority of our engines don't even measure oil TEMPERATURE, but rather "predicts" it based on a pre-existing map in the ECU. We have a coolant temp sensor and a tranny fluid temp sensor, but no oil temp sensor. Knowing those things, I'm really glad for @kevm14 initial panic attack and this resulting thread.
Unfortunately engines get toasted. I can't say there is some fail safe or think of one around these, the fail safe really is the oil pressure sensor. Even other vehicles that don't monitor PRESSURE, they usually have a Switch so if pressure was lost It'll at least throw the light and warnings on the dash. these don't even have that as far as i know...?
There are many things to watch but even on a boat oil pressure is very importan.t. while yes running under a constant load and throttle makes for hot oil, which in turn lowers oil pressure, To say that oil pressure isn't necessary to watch, Is right and wrong, It's a must have to have some sort of way to see but we don't watch it or look at it, it's more of a yep i got oil pressure, good to go. Obviously low pressure is not good either, that'll toast a engine slowly over a long time. But otherwise yes you'd be monitoring the oil temp far more than pressure as that's what's going to be changing and same with engine running temp. But oil pressure is still an important thing to see or know.
There’s a lot going on here…
When running at full tilt, seeing the gauges on the very right and left sides all pointing straight up is about as good as it’s going to get running in 3-foot seas at 80+ MPH. Working the throttles on and off, adjusting trim, trying to make sure you’re taking seas correctly - you have little time at all to stare at gauges. And that’s why many race-boat pilots will just look at temperatures - it’s all they have time for!
I agree that oil pressure is important but the temperature of the oil and coolant will tell you more than you’d need to know. I’ve seen engines with great oil pressure end up with very high oil temperature - they burn down quickly, too.
Anyway… just trying to make the point that oil pressure isn’t everything and really it only shows a restriction to oil flow. If engine oil temperature remains stable and within the heat tolerance of the oil, you’re going to be in really good shape.
However, as @S-Prihadi has pointed out above, the majority of our engines don't even measure oil TEMPERATURE, but rather "predicts" it based on a pre-existing map in the ECU. We have a coolant temp sensor and a tranny fluid temp sensor, but no oil temp sensor. Knowing those things, I'm really glad for @kevm14 initial panic attack and this resulting thread.
The system has to be getting information from somewhere other than a map in the ECU. These engines are too complicated and cost too much to be run on predictions, right?
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by TomZVB
The system has to be getting information from somewhere other than a map in the ECU. These engines are too complicated and cost too much to be run on predictions, right?
Lots of information in that document. Thanks for forwarding.
Looks like that isn't a full list of the inputs - they know what they're doing, but I'd want something a little more concrete data for driving the ECU vs a, "stored temperature model."
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by TomZVB
Lots of information in that document. Thanks for forwarding.
Looks like that isn't a full list of the inputs - they know what they're doing, but I'd want something a little more concrete data for driving the ECU vs a, "stored temperature model."
Well, when checking both the WIS and EPC, there is no oil temperature sensor. So, I guess it really is a calculated value.
I looked up component B40 in Starfinder and it returned that both M157andM278 have the Oil sensor in Model 212 (as well as Model 231).
I do wonder how accurate the calculated oil temperature is. We don't know all the data points that the Stored Model uses, but I wonder if the calculated temperature was exactly the measured oil temperature when the Model was being tested.
I drove the car yesterday, 40 deg F and I am 200 miles into a 5W-40 oil change. It took 20 mins for oil temp to turn white and that was after I stopped and the car sat for 10 mins . Before I stopped the oil temp hovered around 160 F , or was it? I have been unplugged for weeks.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by BDC90
I drove the car yesterday, 40 deg F and I am 200 miles into a 5W-40 oil change. It took 20 mins for oil temp to turn white and that was after I stopped and the car sat for 10 mins . Before I stopped the oil temp hovered around 160 F , or was it? I have been unplugged for weeks.
It usually takes me about 5 miles or 10 minutes of driving to reach 176°F (white) when the ambient temp is around 40°F. I have a M276.825 turbo and the oil temp is calculated.
Oil temperature rise is complex.
Aside from your ambient temperature, how slow or fast your drive in terms of air velocity into the radiator system,
how aggressive you drive in terms of how hot your piston under side and water cooling jacket would be , effects final oil temperature.
Most people thinks that oil cooler coolant is the same temperature of the coolant temperature we read from our ECT sensor, NO it is not.
Oil cooler coolant is "new" coolant aka cooler coolant exiting from the cooled side of the radiator, our ECT at the rear bank end/azz is reading 'spent' coolant which has cooled down all cylinders.
This is why oil cooler usually is located at the FRONT of the engine block, at best the coolant only has cooled down cylinder 1 and 5 ( if V8 ) or 1 and 4 ( if V6)
MB even prepared thermostat for M278/M157 to make sure oil is not too cold or too hot.
.
M278 and M157 turbo coolant also gets "new" coolant, my M276.820 3.0 Turbo get turbo coolant from a rather "spent" coolant.
Simple, see where the turbo coolant pipes gets its source , it is at the output of the water pump if for M278 and M157, one can't get any better "new" cooled coolant than that.
Depends on how the ECM manipulates coolant R48 thermostat heater to assist full thermostat opening and the speed of the radiator fan at that point in time and car velocity,
the delta or the amount of cooling the coolant get can be cooler by 30 Celcius.
I done some test, but stationary
Please note, the R48 thermostat heater is to be read opposite value. 100% means zero heating by ECM. 0% means full power to R48 heater to open up thermostat sooner.
Don't ask me why Xentry/MB is doing that ?
BEFORE is the K thermocouple sensor at the thermostat housing, the steel lip of the hose.
AFTER is the K thermocouple sensor at the OUTPUT of the radiator, the steel lip of the hose, the cool side of the radiator.
Above banana jacks are to read R48 PWM % and voltage.
This is me with Wife from the mall, and quite a traffic , I drive slow speed wise and even RPM for gear change.
This is the Italian tune on same day, before I go with wife to the mall.
The details Zone 1, Shell fuel station to paid highway internal to city. Zone 2, paid highway leg 1 Zone 3 out of highway and back into highway leg 2, heading home. Zone 4, out of highway and to home
My ambient temperature is always 30-32C / 86-89F
NOTE : My oil temperature sensor is a K-thermocouple reading the metal skin/body of my oil pressure sensor metric to imperial adapter. It is not inside the oil pan like M157...which I am drooling thinking of it
04-03-2024, 12:16 PM
