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......Ford gets similar power and torque from their Ecoboost 2.0 on regular gas.
.
On the paper......
For years it was my experience that when MB, Toyota or Lexus list mpg at 20, you can expect 22-25.
When Ford list mpg at 20, you'll be lucky getting 18
On the paper......
For years it was my experience that when MB, Toyota or Lexus list mpg at 20, you can expect 22-25.
When Ford list mpg at 20, you'll be lucky getting 18
Oh, the Ecoboost gas mileage isn't that great, but I'm on my 2nd MKZ so I can confidently say the power is pretty good. Definitely comparable to the BMW.
W212 M276 DELA 30 ; W211 M113k, W126 M117, W126 OM617, W211 OM642 ; R107 M117 X2, Sierra 1500 LZ0
Originally Posted by chassis
The current BMW 2.0L 4 cylinder is stellar. The current VW TFSI V6 and 4 cylinders are good. The Porsche variant EA839 2.9/3.0 V6 seems solid.
Agree on V8s. I wouldn’t own a German V8 out of warranty.
Add to the MB problem child list: M274 with fatal piston cracking at <100k miles and a list of other issues.
I'm speaking from a perspective of a family member that owns the best indy bosch/german shop in a fairly affluent area and has been working on these cars for 45 years. My thoughts on various engine lines and manufacturer products are 100% influenced by their experiences repairing these cars. So many of the inline 4 turbos from all manufacturers (jury is still out on MB since they only started subbing them in for their old 6-cylinders around 2015) is that they're all basic disposable garbage. I don't have enough digits on my hands to count the number of VAG turbo 4s that have been abandoned by customers in the last 2-3 years due to repair costs far exceeding the value of the cars. The same goes for basically any MINI turbo ever sold. BTW, this same family member told me to avoid my OM642 and get the OM651 instead. I ignored them...and after a DPF/EGR delete, ECU tune an oil cooler seal, the car is awesome, but a OM651 CDI would have never required any of that.
...... this same family member told me to avoid my OM642 and get the OM651 instead. I ignored them...and after a DPF/EGR delete, ECU tune an oil cooler seal, the car is awesome, but a OM651 CDI would have never required any of that.
I was forced to do DPF delete on OM651 as 3 years ago MB USA could not supply new or rebuild DPF, when mine had mechanical damage.
But having both engines in several cars, I agree that OM651 is requiring much less costly maintenance and it is way easier to work on, for only small torque penalty. Also per my records, having similar HP, the 4-cylider delivers 30% better fuel economy.
But again, when I found Sprinter in configuration that I like, the V6 engine did not stop me from buying it. At 200k miles is dry like a bone, so hope I will not have to worry about oil cooler for few years.
There isn’t a car that has ever been made in human history that didn’t have some type of weakness in it, other than perhaps a Corolla (the cockroaches will be driving them long after we’ve nuked ourselves to death). That being said…
I’ve had my 2014 E350 (now with 65k miles) for 5 years now. And even though I’ve had to spend several thousand on it, I love the snot out of it. I’ve had leaking front diff (4matic), oil leak, and routine maintenance and expected repairs (mounts, plugs, fluids). Is the car perfect? Not a chance. But what car really is? I’ve had the famous Lexus LS400 before that cost me thousands in bad suspension mounts at 90k, bad engine ecu, clogged power steering solenoid screen, and so on. I’ve had many 2.0t VW’s, Toyotas. Mazda, Subaru, Honda. Nissan, GMC (the worst), and so on. Never owned a single car in my life that hasn’t needed some degree of repair. And I currently own a new style GLS450 that is quickly approaching 50k miles already along with my 212.
Have the car looked at for a pre-purchase inspection, and if ok, buy it! But know that you will spend some money on keeping it going at the perfection it likes. In my mind, I’ve never owned a car that I was OK with repairing like this, because I view my 212 as my likely last sedan, and there isn’t another vehicle on the road that is quite like a well maintained 212. Not saying there aren’t better cars, because there are, but a 212 is just that, and nothing compares to it, warts and all.
My only comment on the 400, and this comes from three 2.0t’s from VAG and a common issue on other brands - these are direct injection engines! A turbo will recycle the exhaust back into the engine. Direct injection engines are prone to carbon build up on the valves because the fuel doesn’t wash over them to keep them clean. Adding a turbo to that engine design, will no doubt accelerate those carbon deposits. Only way to clean them is to pop the top and blast them clean. Not a cheap thing to do. It was a $900 process for the VW’s on a 4 banger that was little more than a Lego engine. Doing it to a Benz has to be twice that if not more. If you feel stumble amd hesitation at idle, them you might be at that marker in time. When I bought my E, I also had a GTI. I avoided the 400 on the lot because of that possibly and looked to the GTI as my “*** on fire” fun car, and the Benz was to be my cruiser. I sold the VW earlier this year at nearly 70k miles (and idle stumble) and kept the Benz. I have zero regrets.
Good to hear about your skills, Seeing 1988 Corvette in your profile, I concluded that you have to be good DIYer.
With technology changes in last decade, the main problem with MB is proper troubleshooting, meaning proper reading the scanner and doing research how to interpret the codes and live data. The actual part swap is peanuts comparing to what some members experience with lack of qualified mechanics.
Good luck on the purchase.
Hit the nail on the head there. I've owned a Mercedes for a year and This, this this! OP looks to know what he's getting into though.
I've had a "BMW Guy" tell me a bad low pressure fuel pump was bad fuel injectors.
I had a tenant who drove Corvette, what might be 1988 model. Being disabled, he was DIYer and per his words, for each 2 days of driving it, he spend 1 day fixing it.
Maybe he was not really good DIYer, but from what I read about those models, he wasn't far off.
But driving Fiats in the past, I can be familiar with the issue.
By the time my Fiat 125p reached 130k km (86k miles) I rebuild starter about 3 times, water pump twice, carburetor numerous time and had timing chain showing a leg via the cover.
I had a tenant who drove Corvette, what might be 1988 model. Being disabled, he was DIYer and per his words, for each 2 days of driving it, he spend 1 day fixing it.
Maybe he was not really good DIYer, but from what I read about those models, he wasn't far off.
But driving Fiats in the past, I can be familiar with the issue.
By the time my Fiat 125p reached 130k km (86k miles) I rebuild starter about 3 times, water pump twice, carburetor numerous time and had timing chain showing a leg via the cover.
Actually, all three of my Corvettes were fairly reliable, and relatively cheap to fix when they did need work. I had model years 1988 (slightly modified), a 1989 (highly modified), and a 1993 (bone stock except for the exhaust system I put on). Cars of that era were simpler.
Well, we buy used MB because we want to save some $$, hoping the 1st owner (surely) took the most painful $$ hit and if we are lucky we get low mileage and well taken care car,
we win.
The win will carry on for as long as the car can be decently reliable.
I choose my E400 because initially I wanted the 2017 BMW M2, brand new ......but my wife told me get a 4 door and not a 2 door so it can carry
family (3 kids ) with rear doors convenience. I have 2 other cars, me wife just being nosy... ha ha ha.
My aim at that time was HP above 300 and torque above 450nm and no smaller than 3,000cc.
It will be either a BMW or MB, never an Audi. Only MB and Bimmer, but mostly MB has big displacement engine models sold in Indonesia.
I used to drive fast and illegally underaged back in the 80s. My genuine but fake data ( 15 years old, data is 17 years old ) Indonesian driver license was useable in Singapore where I was studying.
I can't sleep well if I do not drive above 200KM/H at least once per week on my modified MK2 Supra. 15 years old moron, what do u expect
Fast forward to when I was 17 years old and older, I stopped being an Azz and my Dad business was not doing well, I never anymore had a decently fast car.
Life was real I worked hard and no more a leech to my parents by 20th Bday.
My passion for driving fast is still in me, its just the eyes and my reflex is no more prime passed 50 years old.
That is why I wanted the BMW M2 in 2017, when I turned 50, I want to drive fast again with decent power and a good handling car and not too heavy a car.
Since E500 W212 is not available in my country, E63 AMG is out of my budget range, I have 2 choices, a used 540i or E400 , that was back in 2018.
W213 in Indonesia stop at E350 and it is a small 2 liter and a yucky 48V battery assist There was no E350 W212, only E300 W212 non facelift and E400 facelift by 2014.
Bimmer 540i was not sold in Indonesia. More than 3 liter engine get extra luxury tax penalty you see.
Looking at the HP and Torque chart for E400 M276 3.0 Turbo vs BMW N55 of year 2014/2015 , The M276 3.0 Turbo is still a tiny but ahead.
So I found my July 2014 E400 at 10,000KM in May 2018, paid US$56K for it. Typical Indonesian who has enough $$ will sell off their MB past the warranty period and will need usually
1 year to sell. My car was listed for like 8+ months at a pre-owned showroom because its asking price was one of the highest.
Do I like the E400 ? Yes, the power band is a comfort turbo and not performance turbo. The power delivery is very civilized and strong at the lower RPM suitable for normal but fast daily use.
The handling is good for a 1,900Kg car. I can't zig zag at 100MPH like on my lighter and very much lowered Supra MK2, but I am very happy with the E400.
Overtaking in rural road single lane with opposing traffic is very safe and no need pass 5,000 RPM , as most other cars in Indonesia are under 150HP by 99% majority.
Up to 110MPH E400 speed rise is VERY good for a car this size and weight. Pass 125MPH it is decent.
Super tight bend/corner is not its thing because near 5 meter long and 1.9 ton weight shift is not fun, 5 meter is long for a mid size sedan.
However with my Quafei torsen type differential, it has helped a lot for fast speed at super tight bend.
Reliability ?
So far 36,000KM of abusive driving but super-duper-**** maintenance has showed decent reliability.
To be fair, today's car with VVT, direct injection , turbo and pass 100HP per 1 liter displacement is not a relaxed engine.
The E400 M276.820 engine won't survive flawless like my MK2 Supra engine wise , if at 100,000KM apple to apple same torture for sure.
But my MK2 Supra inline 6 2.8L 5M-GE engine , stock was pumping only 175HP. 1/4 race cam, full sport exhaust and header with head porting, at best 205 HP.
So only 70HP per 1 liter displacement.
As our car aged, the electronics module will surely fail too. 47 modules in my E400, 37 are CAN bus ones and 10 are LIN ones, actually more than 10 LINs.
So mechanical wise is one thing, massive electronics in use is another problem we have to deal with today's car. It is given, we can't escape.
For me a tropical country guy, my electronics chance of failure due to high ambient temperature is higher than those in cooler climate.
To how successful we can maintain our car is a different story.
If we are a decent DIYer and willing to buy proper diagnostic tool, use genuine parts always , maintain fluids change based on extreme use or shorter interval, and also with luck for
not getting bad batch of components, I think we would be fine as an owner.
However, if we want a used MB because we think its reduced price now is a good time to buy it, but we lack DIY skill and tools and lack the maintenance $$, stay away from any MB.
Parts and labor price does not fall along with age of the car.
My E400 is my fun car to exercise my hobby, not my basic transport , so far so good.
My family other real transport machine my wife (her domain ) keeps to no older than 4-5 years.
Buying a car out of warranty is easy, maintaining it to be pristine at all times will be the challenge and it can be rewarding on personal level.
I am still have not confirmed a 100% as to will I keep my E400 past 10 years .
If I do keep it past 10 years there are many expensive preventive I must do, and when it is 15+ years old and hopefully 100,00KM+* ( *not likely) and still is pristine, that will be my emotional reward.
To be fair, today's car with VVT, direct injection , turbo and pass 100HP per 1 liter displacement is not a relaxed engine
.
Technology can be really amazing those days.
The 100hp/l is made by "econobox " diesel in old OM651 engine.
When I did own tens of car brands in my life, including 5 VW, the MB proved to be the cheapest to drive on long run.
Years ago, living near San Francisco, I had project in San Diego, what required "commuting" every few weeks.
For some time I drove 2003 VW Jetta tdi wagon with 1.9l diesel (90 HP from what I remember) and later 2005 E320 cdi.
Same routes, same speeds, same winds and MB delivered the same mpg, what much lighter Jetta, who had the same mpg ratings for wagon and sedan.
Actually thanks to better acceleration, I was few minutes faster in MB on 600 miles route.
My only comment on the 400, and this comes from three 2.0t’s from VAG and a common issue on other brands - these are direct injection engines! A turbo will recycle the exhaust back into the engine. Direct injection engines are prone to carbon build up on the valves because the fuel doesn’t wash over them to keep them clean. Adding a turbo to that engine design, will no doubt accelerate those carbon deposits. Only way to clean them is to pop the top and blast them clean. Not a cheap thing to do. It was a $900 process for the VW’s on a 4 banger that was little more than a Lego engine. Doing it to a Benz has to be twice that if not more. If you feel stumble amd hesitation at idle, them you might be at that marker in time. When I bought my E, I also had a GTI. I avoided the 400 on the lot because of that possibly and looked to the GTI as my “*** on fire” fun car, and the Benz was to be my cruiser. I sold the VW earlier this year at nearly 70k miles (and idle stumble) and kept the Benz. I have zero regrets.
Unless something has changed since I took Turbo 101 in the 1960's (GM turbos), unless there is a badly failed shaft seal, a turbocharger most definitely will NOT recycle the exhaust back into the engine! A turbo has two turbines on the opposite ends of a rotating shaft. The exhaust turbine is spun by the exhaust gases from the engine. This causes the shaft to spin, very fast. On the opposite end of that shaft is the intake turbine, which will intake clean, outside air to be compressed and forced into the intake system of the engine. There is NO exhaust recycled into the combustion chambers of the engine.
These DI turbo engines may gunk up faster than normally aspirated DI engines, but if they do (and I am not sure if they do), it is not from exhaust gases being recycled into the combustion chambers.
W212 M276 DELA 30 ; W211 M113k, W126 M117, W126 OM617, W211 OM642 ; R107 M117 X2, Sierra 1500 LZ0
I really hope my M276TT lives on in my W212. I heard of a HPFP failure in a 225K Mile Ml400 and apparently it was a ton of labor to do. First off, I'm impressed someone has already gotten a 2016+ mercedes to over 225k, secondly I am wondering if the w212 packaging makes the job less labor intensive than a W166.
High pressure fuel pump is eventually a consumable part, albeit a long life one.
I have a spare one already..., for fun and learning.
The HP fuel pump piston/plunger side ( where fuel becomes 200 BAR ) is lubricated by our very own gasoline.
So do not ever try to empty or de-pressurize HP fuel pump and injectors of fuel by running engine till it died while fuel hose from Low Pressure fuel pump
is disconnected. The WIS mentioned this too.
Clogged fuel filter at tank can also damage HP fuel pump piston/plunger if aeration occurs.
M276 3.0 Turbo uses 4 fuel lobes camshaft to drive the HP Pump. M276 3.5L uses 3 fuel lobes.
So at 6,000 crankshaft RPM, camshaft RPM is 1/2 of crankshaft so at 3,000 :
but the 4 fuel lobes means the HP fuel pump is doing 3,000 x 4 = 12,000 pumping cycle per minute, that is a lot.
The wet engine oil lubricated portion of the HP pump to camshaft fuel lobe interface, MB uses nice bearing type cam follower
This item ( shown upside down )
The Audi is el-cheapo, many of their engines uses no bearing one like below : Also shown upside down, for 2.0 FSI Audi engine, I believe year 2008 engine https://crasyideas.com/wearing-tfsi-cam-followers/
The way I drive and love of kick down, the VVT system on my engine I am sure will fail sooner than most with "polite" right foot on the throttle I hope the tranny can survive.
The lock hole and pin on my VVT phasor will be the one damaged first.
HP fuel pump replacement is not too big a job, its the working space for our hand behind Bank 1 is the yucky part.
MB Indonesia screw-up #1. Bad quality water and low % of coolant mix.
Replaced total 3 hoses, due to its steel hose end corossion.
Replaced coolant pump, leaking due to the bad water quality. https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...i-am-sure.html
MB Germany screw-up #2. Preventive. Replace 4 of camshaft magnetic phasor.
Prevention of oil leaking out of camshaft magnetic phasor connector into wire harness and damage the engine computer because oil can wick/migrate all the way to the engine computer.
Surely this is MB Germany screw up for choosing a product with such poor construction. https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...ml#post8471572
Soon probably the 4 camshaft sensors must be replaced too. I keep my eyes on them.
My own rough use, accelerated wear #1
Left side stabilizer link, the top ball joint rubber boot broken and ball joint weaken. This is due to fun-at-track use with 9 out of 11 corners are right turn, so left suspension work harder.
I replaced both sides.
My own rough use, accelerated wear #2
I needed to install camber correction bolts for front suspension to get it back to MB spec. Same cause, track use.
Preventive, vibration absorbing components #2
- Replaced both engine mounts and tranny mounts at 10,000KM
- Replaced again all 3 before 30,000KM
I am hyper sensitive to these sort of vibration. To me, these 3 items best life would be 25,000KM max for Crème de la crème useful life.
Reduced fluid mileage service life maintenance regime
01. Engine oil maximum use 5,000KM or 9-12 months or 200 hours.
02. Tranny & Differential oil & filter per 2 years or 20,000KM
03. Coolant, maximum 5 years or 40,000KM.
Others, shortened service life on purpose.
01. Spark plug per 20,000KM and max 4 years. I have replaced mine at 10,000KM at 4 years old and 2nd time at close to 30,000KM, at 3 years age. https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...-accurate.html
02. Engine breathing air filters. Max 20,000KM or 4 years. I replaced them twice already. At 10,000KM at 4 years old and 2nd time at close to 30,000KM, at 3 years age.
============================
Handling improvement
Replace all 4 dampers with Bilstein B4 for front and finally Bilstein B6 for rear.
My original dampers are by SACHS and it SUCKS, scary lane change at above 100 miles per hour even when I was so slow and careful doing the lane change.
======================
Individual Spare part non-availability I hate about MB.
01. I can't buy rear damper top mount or its bump stop only, I need to buy as a damper set and that means crappy SACHS.
02. I can't buy any damn piston seal kit and dust boot for rear and front brake calipers. So must buy rebuild brake caliper...DUGGHHH ????
I managed to get front brake seal and dust boot genuine Brembo, the E400 caliper is by Brembo. 4 pistons model, 344mm rotor.
These are rubber components exposed to crazy heat from braking, they will get damaged, it has to.
However there is 1 unique crossover seals which Brembo itself does not sell ....baztardz. https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...-get-them.html
03, E400 only. Turbo. The vacuum actuator unit. Not sold as stand alone part. I hope I can source a proper good alternative when I need one.
Inside here is also a rubber/silicone membrane and it will tear someday, it has to.
04. E400 only. A check valve , part of the PCV system, Need to buy complete plastic pipe set. Lucky it is cheap, my cost US$100ish I think.
We can loose turbo boost from the leak of this 2-in-1 check valve.
=============================
The world of plastics........... not unique to MB but is the current trend. Audi and BMW seems to use more plastic, plastic oil pan too...crazy !!!
Anytime I see plastic pipe handling coolant or engine oil I freak out. These can be engine killer if we get unlucky.
My 10 year keep or sell consideration is because of mainly plastic worry.
While these plastics component cost is not expensive, the labor to replace them can be VERY expensive.
Even the radiator sides and the aftercooler (E400) is plastic....kinda scarry.
I haven't read the derailment but if it is taking you too long to decide, the car will sell by the time you figure it out.
Any Mercedes V6 frankly is pretty darn reliable. If you can DIY, the cost to own is fairly minimal.
The 400s are fast. On the spec sheet it doesn't look like a big difference, but man, it is.
These cars fortunately do not have carbon buildup issues like audi or potentially others. I'm sure someone will argue this, I'm not going to read back into this thread.
If that was the case you would have seen the 250's years ago having those issues.
E400 FTW!
I also have a '15 E400 and it's probably the better daily than the common 350's. Definitely worth the extra money.
Just took a road trip with it from NYC to Detroit to Niagara Falls and back. It was a blast to drive on open road.
Way more options as standard. The leather seats and dashboard alone make it worth it. Mine has the folded rear seats option which is rare.
I might have to sell mine though.
I have only put 5k miles on it since October last year, and since I take the subway way more now, I am thinking of letting it go.
60k miles, 3rd owner and clean title.
I'd be happy with $30k if you're in NYC.
E400 FTW!
I also have a '15 E400 and it's probably the better daily than the common 350's. Definitely worth the extra money.
Just took a road trip with it from NYC to Detroit to Niagara Falls and back. It was a blast to drive on open road.....
I decided not to proceed. I'm too close to retirement to take on the potentially higher cost of ownership. Five or ten years ago I would have jumped at it without thinking but I've reached an age where every decision has to be measured. The car sold to someone else several days ago now. I'm sure they will be quite happy with it. It was beautiful.
I might have to sell mine though. I have only put 5k miles on it since October last year, and since I take the subway way more now, I am thinking of letting it go. 60k miles, 3rd owner and clean title.
Hey man. If you are serious about selling it-lets talk. I'm in NYC and I'm in the market for e400
Last edited by Lokomotiv1; Jul 22, 2022 at 06:30 PM.
W212 M276 DELA 30 ; W211 M113k, W126 M117, W126 OM617, W211 OM642 ; R107 M117 X2, Sierra 1500 LZ0
Originally Posted by Lokomotiv1
Hey man. If you are serious about selling it-lets talk. I'm in NYC and I'm in the market for e400
Man the used car market is rough.. I paid 35ish K for a CPO with 27K miles in March of 2019... I'm in the market for a used Tundra and they're holding their values very well too.
There is some truth to the assertion that the complexity of modern engines is undermining reliability, but I concur that BMW's 2.0 turbo 4 is great, if you buy one made after mid way through the 2015 model year when they implemented improvements to the timing chain system. My only complaint about mine is that it takes premium fuel....Ford gets similar power and torque from their Ecoboost 2.0 on regular gas.
I always thought Mercedes were known for their reliability, until I came here to learn before buying.
Now I'm not so sure.
German horsepower is the power you get on wheel, even on a hot day with 100 degree outside. American horsepower is the power you get at crank, at sea level on a good day
2016 E350 4Matic wagon, 2019 Ford Expedition, 2019 Chevy Bolt EV
any turbo car is going to have long term repair expenses above and beyond those of a similar non-turbo. there's turbo cooling, turbo lubrication, the whole intake path past the turbo is under positive pressure when you're on boost, which increases the likelyhood of intake air leaks, because the intake is under pressure, vacuum control systems for things like HVAC require extra measures such as a vacuum storage bottle,, etc etc etc.
there's a recent thread on here where replacing the turbo coolant hoses on a E550 turbo is going to cost $3000, but its only $300 worth of parts, the rest is labor as a whole lot has to be taken apart to access these coolant lines.
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Slideshow: A one-of-one U.S.-spec Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren Roadster became even rarer after a factory-backed transformation at McLaren's headquarters.
